Supervised contact?

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CPHill

CPHill

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Hi. As you may know I have now separated baby Blacky from his mum awaiting neutering. They have separate cages side by side but floor time they are out with a wire panel down the middle so they can smell and see each other.

My question is whether it is a good idea / possible for him to have contact with perhaps his sister if I watch them all the time or whether this would set them back to square 1 and have to go through the whole separation thing again? They seem desperate to see each other.

Mum is leaking milk everywhere bless her. Quite distressing to watch :( Wouldn't suggest contact with mum as Blacky will go straight for milk which isn't fair on either I don't think.

I am concerned that Blacky isn't drinking since he's been away from mum but still seems very chirpy. I will try holding him next to water bottle to help him realise this is water. Given cucumber and watery foods to compensate a little

Any suggestions or do I just need to sit it out and go with flow?

Sorry to keep asking questions! :)
 
Little Blackie is probably desperate to hump, (mum/sister/whoever available) and this is what he will do rather than go for the milk straightaway. lol. Just sit it out. You are doing right giving him watery veg to compensate for fluids. You could put a brick under the water bottle for him to climb on and reach it more easily. Provided he is gaining weight, he will be fine. x
 
Thanks nutmeg. This stuff isn't easy is it?! Lol x
 
CPHill said:
Mum is leaking milk everywhere bless her. Quite distressing to watch :( Wouldn't suggest contact with mum as Blacky will go straight for milk which isn't fair on either I don't think.
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Oh dear. This baby is 2 weeks 4 days old. The mother is producing milk for a reason.

‘Forced weaning’ is so rarely necessary with cavies as it is with cattle or horses. They will naturally wean themselves around 3-4 weeks particularly if they are given appropriate soft green food which, of course, you are doing.

Obviously breeders or those with more than one sow littering have an advantage in that it is often possible to place newly weaned 4 weeks old boars with very slightly older baby boars who will quickly ‘show them the ropes’. In this situation is almost unknown for baby boars to squeak pitifully for their mothers as it is much more fun to explore and play with the other boys.

Similarly, in my experience, a 4 week old baby has learnt to use the water bottle; in most cases a 2 week 4 days old baby has not.

My advice would be to put the baby boar back with its mother until it is at least 21-28 days old. If anyone can provide real evidence that a boar under 28 days old has sired a litter (as opposed to an event of ‘cage hopping’ by an older boar, wrongly sexed ‘sows’ , fathers having access to sows at ‘floortime’ or mistakes about the date of birth of boars) I would be genuinely interested to know.

I am sure someone will be along soon, as they did on the other thread, to tell me that I need to do some research, look things up before I comment and don’t understand about baby pigs etc etc....but possibly after keeping cavies for 30 years I feel that I might not really need to do that!
 
CPHill said:
Thanks nutmeg. This stuff isn't easy is it?! Lol x
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No it's not unfortunately, especially when a sow just has one little lad in the litter, so is separated on his own. It would be great if sow had little boys in even numbers rolleyes. x
 
Just as an extra, been reading through your last thread about this little chappie, which seems to have been taken over. Please try and not be upset by people who post in an inflammatory manner. Advice and opinions can always be given, but those given in an inappropriate manner, and not in the spirit of helpfulness do not deserve a response. x
 
my boar was 17 days old when i had to seperate because he was trying to mount mum and sister and its hard but you have to sit out the crying but give him extra cuddles and he'll be fine (:
 
Thanks all. OH feeling neglected as I'm spending so much time with piggies, especially little Blacky! Short term pain for long term gain I guess. Positive thinking! X
 
When my sow had her litter of two (1 male 1 female) i removed the male as he was getting a little too frisky for my liking - he was just under 3 wks old.

I supplemented his diet with bits of wholemeal bread soaked in goats milk - however he was eating fresh veg/nuggets/hay before i separated him from mum and sister.

I think it's very difficult to judge when the time is right to separate - i know in my situation i was very scared i'd end up with more pregnant sows - worse than that would have been the fact they were pregnant by their own brother/son. It's so very easy to sit on the side-lines and tell people not to worry - but the reality is we do!

I think after reading so many posts, people realize it's so very rare for a pregnancy to occur before males reach 28days of age - but the fact that they see the young male trying to jump on top of everything that moves, paranoia sets in very quickly.

I personally don't think him spending an additional 3 days with mum/sister is going to make a huge difference to his life!

Likewise i wouldn't even entertain the idea of supervised access, if he's determined enough, no amount of supervision will deter the inevitable :) It takes literally seconds for a sow to become pregnant - i would not risk it.

Give him a couple of days - he'll settle down I'm sure of it :)
 
nutmeg said:
Advice and opinions can always be given, but those given in an inappropriate manner, and not in the spirit of helpfulness do not deserve a response.
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Sorry Nutmeg if you find my posts “not in the spirit of helpfulnessâ€.

This baby was weaned unnecessarily early when, despite apparent ‘mating high jinks’ the likelihood of it being fertile at 17 days old is so incredibly unlikely.

The baby is now distressed. The mother is in discomfort. The baby sow may or may not suckle on one side only (it varies between baby pigs; some develop a preference for suckling one side especially if there are two babies of similar size in the litter) this does not always happen but if the sow is clearly still producing large amounts of milk I would be worried. I hope this does not lead to the sow developing mastitis through one-sided engorgement.

I also hope that the baby is strong enough to continue developing normally and the stressful situation does not compromise his immune system when he could have still been suckling from his mother. I am assuming that this litter was from a ‘rescue’ or pet shop sow and therefore we do not have much information on the previous health of either parent. My personal choice is to give babies the best start I can in life.

You will be pleased to know that I won’t be posting on this forum anymore; I really shouldn’t waste my time when people on here are so blinkered and set in their ways.
 
Whilst i too know the general rule is to remove baby boars at 3wks old or sooner if they are mounting (i'd still like to know where it came from) but 2.5wk old boars/sows are NOT sexually mature.
Mum also has to be in season & if sows come into season immediately after giving birth for a period of up to 48 hours, (most fertile for 2-15 hours) they won't come into season again for 15-17 days, this makes all babies, at this stage 19-21 days old.
Mum won't come into season again until the babies are at least 36 days/5wks old by which time they would be fully weaned & separated.

Just to throw this into the mix - Could mounting/brring in young babies not be dominance related instead of sexual?
 
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Good point Niki, could be a safety gap, 'just in case' issue with the 3 weeks ish mark, as there may have been a rare case? Sort of like when a boar is neutered, he is thought to be clear at 4 weeks, as many vets recommend, but we apply that 'just in case' rule and give it another couple of weeks to make sure. x
 
My understanding is the youngest boar to father piglets was 4 weeks, that's what I read somewhere, I could be wrong. So separating at 3 weeks, is just leaving a gap just in case. But separating at 4 weeks will probably be fine, especially with a smaller baby boar or an only child.

So separating any earlier than 3 weeks, seems silly to me, even if the baby is mounting. I mean, nobody would suggest separating the girls at that age, cos you have to think of the baby's health and socialising needs. That's just my opinion though, I'm not criticising you. :) Obviously we can't leave them with the mum for as long as they would in the wild :))

I mean, my babies boars are 3 weeks today and I separated them and they seem happy enough living with their big brother. Mum doesn't seem too anxious either. My guinea pig friend separates boars at 4 weeks she said, but if they're small she leaves them til 6 weeks, and has never had any problems with that, and she's rescued and bred lots of litters (not breeding the rescues of course!) I asked her about it the other day cos I wanted to know when to separate my babies :)


I'd give them a shallow bowl of water to drink as well as the bottle. I gave mine a bowl this morning and they were thirsty, even though they had veg. They'll naturally know how to drink from a bowl by that age I'm sure, but a bottle is more difficult.
 
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I have to say I agree, I too would have the baby back in with his mum until 3 weeks at the absolute earliest. He really is too young to be away from his mum and the fact he's not drinking is really quite worrying - he can't really learn how to use a bottle by himself at that age. What he's doing sounds like normal boar behaviour and I don't think there's any evidence other than anecdotes (more like Chinese whispers) to suggest they are fertile at his age.
 
He's 3 weeks old on Thursday so to put him back in now only to be removed 2 days later again I fear might distress him again. He does seem more settled tonight, even popcorning and he has a bowl of water.
 
When I took in four piggies (3 boars and 1 sow) who had lost their mummy when they were two weeks old, I kept them together until they were five weeks. Maybe this was a little too long, but I felt they needed one another and their behaviour certainly didn't suggest they had reached sexual maturity.
 
The issue isn't just him eating and drinking, at that age they need mum's milk to strengthen and grow when it's available. He needs it for his bones, his nutrients and his immunity. Food at that age is just for learning and supplementation. The fact they are born so "able" is a survival mechanism but in reality they need longer to wean.
 
I tend to decide about separation on an individual basis. I have had some baby boars that have been huge, big born and growing well, and eating everything in sight from day 1. (Nugget comes to mind, he was eating nuggets, carrots and hay) Some, well before the 21 day guide, have been mounting tiny litter mates, so I've separated as they were thriving really well and the tiny litter mates were getting distressed. On the other side, I have kept little boars within the litter if they are smaller and still very dependent for much longer. xx
 
nutmeg said:
I tend to decide about separation on an individual basis. I have had some baby boars that have been huge, big born and growing well, and eating everything in sight from day 1. (Nugget comes to mind, he was eating nuggets, carrots and hay) Some, well before the 21 day guide, have been mounting tiny litter mates, so I've separated as they were thriving really well and the tiny litter mates were getting distressed. On the other side, I have kept little boars within the litter if they are smaller and still very dependent for much longer. xx
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My babies were much smaller than I am sure they would've been if they had had mums milk for longer, so I felt happy leaving them together for longer than I normally would.
 
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