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Stubborn conjunctivitis or something else?

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harryandco

Hi,

new member, long term keeper. We have had four piggies with conjunctivitis, when this has happened in the past we have just used optrex infected eyes from the chemist and it cleared up quite quickly. It started with harry having a gunky eye and a wet nose, we thought it might have been a uri and took him to our vet who prescribed baytril but said his chest sounded normal. We also used optrex infected eyes three times a day.

After this three others broke out with it so we got some more baytril and treated with optrex too.

Harry improved in 3 days but his eye lids were still swollen, at the end of his 5 day course we noticed the other three so another five day course for all of them. These three like harry cleared up to just having swollen conjuctiva in three days.

End of five day course (ten day course for harry) back to the vets. She gave us Fucithalmic eye drops for five days and said she'd be very surprised if this didn't clear it up. We stopped the baytril as harry had had a ten day course had shown no improvement from day three to day ten.

Today is day four of the fucithalmic course and it's honestly made no difference, probably going to be back to the vets on tuesday. Anyway has anyone got any suggestions to what we might do treatment wise or perhaps a suggestion of what this condition might be. Getting really fed up with this just want our piggies back to normal.
 
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Welcome to the forum. :)

What are your piggies bedded on? I am thinking along the lines of allergy - beddings like sawdust or woodshavings can cause allergies with such symptoms, as can dusty hay. It sounds like it's a contagious problem so allergy may not be the case for each of them, but worth thinking about if you've not already.

The Optrex should, in theory, be better than the Fucithalmic. The Optrex Infected Eyes contains chloramphenicol, which the active ingredient that a vet would give for eye infections and when any kind of injury is to blame. Perhaps a slightly longer course of Optrex would be beneficial - treating all at the same time?
 
CCC4 said:
Welcome to the forum. :)

What are your piggies bedded on? I am thinking along the lines of allergy - beddings like sawdust or woodshavings can cause allergies with such symptoms, as can dusty hay. It sounds like it's a contagious problem so allergy may not be the case for each of them, but worth thinking about if you've not already.

The Optrex should, in theory, be better than the Fucithalmic. The Optrex Infected Eyes contains chloramphenicol, which the active ingredient that a vet would give for eye infections and when any kind of injury is to blame. Perhaps a slightly longer course of Optrex would be beneficial - treating all at the same time?
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thanks for that, we use newpaper lining then a layer of easibed and a layer a hay. We did use shavings and thought that it may have irratted them as it was a rather dusty batch. The easibed is dust free and its a bit heavier so it doesn't kick and blow about the same. The hay is dust extracted horse haylage, it smells so sweet and the piggies love it. There are only four out of ten affected some in the same enclosure with pigs that haven't shown any signs.
 
Does anyone know anything about chlamydia and is it possible that this could be chlamydia? How long does it usually take to clear conjunctivitis. Weve just bought the pigs in for their eye drops and its definately worse in two of them. Also one that has been issolated for 8 days now has now got a bad eye, they are well in themselves booked into the vets again tommorrow morning.
 
SunshineAndTwinkle said:
Chlamydia can affect the eyes and is then known as trachoma. This can occur if the infection is transferred to the eyes, by fingers, which have been in contact with the genitals.

http://www.chlamydiae.com/restricted/docs/infections/vet_ccaviae_clinical.asp
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I am referring to Chlamydia (or Chlamydophila) caviae. I've been on and off the computer all day and my pigs seem to have very similar symptoms to this. There is another form thought to affect guinea pigs, chlamydia psittaci. Although with this I think they tend to be chesty and it is far more contagious (air borne I think). Not sure really, thought someone on here may know a lot more about it. My pigs are completely well in themselves apart from red conjunctiva and watery eyes. Also only 5 out of 10 have contracted it so far. In four it is only showing in one eye, the fifth has today developed it in both eyes (previously just one). I hope you are reffering to the guinea pigs genitals and not mine! :))
 
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harryandco said:
thanks for that, we use newpaper lining then a layer of easibed and a layer a hay. We did use shavings and thought that it may have irratted them as it was a rather dusty batch. The easibed is dust free and its a bit heavier so it doesn't kick and blow about the same.
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If Easibed is the same as I used to use, it's a lot less dusty than shavings.. But *still* pine. I did notice an improvement in terms of respiration (having believed for years piggies "just got" respiratory infections at least once a year after many trips to vets over time) when I went onto it, but learned/ realised/ read up that it still was far from ideal due to the compounds released by the wood chips. It was also a touch sharp on their feet, although not as bad as the hemp bedding I moved to back then.

I personally (with hindsight of course...) *never* recommend pine/ wood shavings or chip bedding, and this *could* be down to an allergy to the various chemicals released by the bedding. Even if it isn't, moving away from pine is a good idea in my opinion. If you have a local supplier then the cardboard based bedding (such as Ecobed) works out a bit cheaper and is far better in terms of dust, phenols, absorbancy.. Failing that, Megazorb should be reasonably easy to source at an equine store and works pretty well.

Even if this problem isn't allergy/ bedding related, Megazorb and Ecobed (or other cardboard bedding if can be sourced locally) are as far as I am concerned healthier options that also work out no more expensive and if anything slightly cheaper! :)
 
thanks theres a big equine place near me so I will look into that, I dont think its a allergy because I've only recently aquired most of these pigs, some of which have been kept quite poorly and most were kept on wood shavings. I'm wondering if the stress of the move has brought this out. Interestingly the only two in the shed not to get it so far are the two my daughter recently picked from P@H.

*edit*

just had a quick look online easibed is made from recycled whitewood fibre, megazorb is made from virgin wood pulp. What is the difference? Could be pine in both surely?
 
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harryandco said:
thanks theres a big equine place near me so I will look into that, I dont think its a allergy because I've only recently aquired most of these pigs, some of which have been kept quite poorly and most were kept on wood shavings. I'm wondering if the stress of the move has brought this out. Interestingly the only two in the shed not to get it so far are the two my daughter recently picked from P@H.
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Just like some humans can smoke 60 a day and live to 100, and others have a pack a day in their teens and their lungs give out by middle age, piggies seem to have a genetic dispensation to resist or succumb to various things. Though I do agree, it could well not be bedding related in this instance.

just had a quick look online easibed is made from recycled whitewood fibre, megazorb is made from virgin wood pulp. What is the difference? Could be pine in both surely?
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The difference is mostly in how it's prepared/ made. In trying to think how to describe Megazorb, think how you can break down and ball up wet card. Then let it dry. You get kind of "fluffy" chunks, with no obvious smell. It's down to how the wood is broken down and then formed into the bedding. A very simplistic way of comparing is "Can you smell it?". With even Easibed I could always detect quite a strong pine scent, and scent is various chemicals being released into the air. Pine compounds are pretty volatile, and each lungful for a piggie (bear in mind their noses are somewhat closer to the bedding than ours!) has to be absorbed or lurk until it can be expelled back out the lungs. They can also irritate the airways along the way. Given what Megazorb is I suspect it's as "piney" as card :)

Another issue with shavings is the oils can cause skin irritation, again because the naturally found chemicals can have the effect of drying out the skin and being in themselves an irritant. If you look at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pine_oil you'll see it's got natural disinfectant properties (opening many brands of disinfectant will tell you that by nose!).. Now disinfectant can be good, but would you want to live in a bottle of it!? ;)
 
Harryandco, I haven’t read through all your posts but have you recently acquired some of these pigs or have they been in contact with other pigs (within 3-4 weeks of showing first signs?)
I am as certain as I can be that this is Chlamydia (Chlamydophila caviae). It is not uncommon in pigs at all and not very serious. There are often ‘outbreaks’ of it.

The common cavy Chlamydia is sometimes described as ‘self limiting’. That means that, with good general health, pigs will get over it by themselves and it is only the symptoms (keeping their eyes clean & comfortable etc) that is necessary. Doxycycline will ‘cure’ it but probably does more harm to the pig than getting over the infection by itself. Discuss this with your vet.

It is possible to have the pigs tested (no point in having them all tested – just do one!) It isn’t desperately expensive £20-£30 for the test itself.

BUT YOU MUST MAKE SURE THE LABORATORY AND THE VET UNDERSTAND THE LIMITATIONS OF THE TEST. Please...this is soooo important.

The test will NOT show the difference between Chlamydophila caviae and a completely different disease Chlamydia psittaci (this is sometimes called ‘parrot fever’ ) It will just give a result of yes or no to ‘”Chlamydia of some sort”.

Be very suspicious if the vet / lab say the pigs have Chlamydia psittaci. It is POSSIBLE for pigs and humans to get parrot fever but it is so incredibly unlikely that this is what your pigs have, so don’t worry. They have quite possibly got C. Caviae though and so the test will come out positive.


Now, this is what the confusion is (and caused a lot of pigs to be PTS 18 months ago). Harryandco ......where you read that there is another guinea pig infection called Chlamydia psittaci.....there isn’t.
This is the OLD name for Chlamydophila caviae. You will sometimes see it written as Chlamydia psittaci GPIC strain. (GPIC stands for Guinea Pig Inclusion Conjunctivitis). The names were changed quite recently and you will still see both names used.

18 months ago a large number of pigs had C. Caviae (with respiratory problems) and pigs were tested. The labs sent the results back to the vets saying ‘positive’ and on the report they used the OLD name of Chlamydia psittaci without pointing out that actually the pigs just had C. Caviae and the tests were not accurate enough to tell the difference.
Very sad for a lot of pigs as they were PTS because of the fear of spreading C. Psittaci (parrot fever) to humans .......of course they couldn’t have done as they never had it!


Harryandco...which county are you in? The vet with a lot of information on this and who sorted out all the confusion 18 months ago is down in Cheshire. He is now retired (he was at Pool Farm Veterinary Clinic, Betley) and so I don’t want to put his private details on the internet but if your vet would like to contact him I will send the details.

 
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That was really useful thanks Junpier - I'd heard of it but didn't know what all the fuss was about, happier now I know more about it. Sad for the guineas that were PTS by mistake though!

Sophie
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Excellent information Juniper. I remember the 'outbreak' 18 months or so ago, luckily the pigs I knew were treated and not PTS. I feel so bad for all the little ones who were PTS because of veterinary/laboratory 'inaccuracies'. :(
 
I'd only heard of it before thru here so i think that info is wonderful, well done love xx>>>xx>>>xx>>>xx>>>
We've got such wonderful people on here x)x)x)x)
 
Most of the pigs that were PTS belonged to two show breeders. One of the owners was having chemo for cancer, the other owner had a small child with serious health problems/disabilities.
The risk to these two families IF the pigs genuinely had 'parrot fever' (the real psittaci !) was awful. The decision was made in hell of a hurry (under veterinary advice - which was CORRECT at the time, given the lab reports) for obvious reasons.

The Cheshire vet sat up all hours of the night for a week or two (communicating with USA vets etc) and figured out that the only tests that could distinguish between C. caviae and C. psittaci were so very expensive that the labs couldn't possibly be doing them. No normal vet test shows the difference, they are University reasearch lab type tests that do!

Sadly, one lab in the south (the lab used by the person with the sick kid) actually used the wording "Chlamydia psittaci. Avian Strain" on the report form. The test they did could NEVER have shown the difference

If Harryandco's vet is fairly certain that C. caviae is what the pigs have, he/she may not even bother testing them, just use his/her professional judgement to say that it is.
 
thanks for that information, brilliantly helpful. Yes there are pigs within the group that have come here within the last 3-4 weeks. I have just returned from the vets, unfortunatelty before reading this mornings post. Anyhow her opinion was that this was probably an allegery or virus and the conjunctivitis may have been a secondary infection which has now cleared leaving just imflamation. She has given me some maxitrol eye drops which are antibiotic and anti inflamitry. She considered metecam but as all chest sound clear and there is no sneezing or coughing, she thought it was unnecessary. She did say it could be flu, herpes or Chlamydophila. No mention of testing for it, just hopefully it will clear up now. I have some questions:

1) If this is C.caviae and it does clear up fine, is the disease completely gone and would it be ok to introduce others in the future. Do they become carriers, as I imagine they would if this was herpes.

Thanks for everyone's input we were in quite a state last night reading about the afore mentioned piggies that were PTS.

Now a question on the bedding, I have found a local supplier of Megazorb (£5.90, 85 litres), cannot find ecobed anywhere local, I have found a cardboard bedding called Furture Animal Bedding has anyone any experience with this? Also I've found something called ecopetbed but this has to be delivered and will cost £19.99 for a 20kg sack.

Thanks to all, thoughts on both bedding and the illness/treatment are most welcome.
 
I can only help on the bedding part, sorry - I've never heard of the new one you mentioned, but I use Megazorb and that's a good price for it. It doesn't look like it will go far but you only need a thin layer, I sprinkle it and pat it down to form a layer and I use it for my big group in the shed, one sack does the big pen plus all the hutches so it's quite economical (as long as you don't treat it like shavings and put loads in!).

I do hope your piggies are better soon, it's so worrying when they're sick

Sophie
x
 
harryandco said:
She did say it could be flu, herpes or Chlamydophila. No mention of testing for it, just hopefully it will clear up now.
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I've no chance of being in the slightest bit more helpful than others on this thread, but at least it sounds like you've got a vet with an element of clue :) All I ever get when I go in is "Hmmm, seems like a respiratory infection, let's try Baytril"...

Now a question on the bedding, I have found a local supplier of Megazorb (£5.90, 85 litres), cannot find ecobed anywhere local, I have found a cardboard bedding called Furture Animal Bedding has anyone any experience with this? Also I've found something called ecopetbed but this has to be delivered and will cost £19.99 for a 20kg sack.
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The Future Bedding site seems a little scant on details (but aren't they all...) but I can't see any reason not to try it - Maybe get a bale and see? The Ecopetbed is one I've used in the past and I found it very good, but as you've found the carriage on a bale makes it way too pricey if you've got large cages/ many piggies. Much cheaper if you buy by the truckload, but who has space for that many bales!? @)

That's not a bad price on Megazorb, it recently went up at my local shop to about £6.50. I wouldn't say it's quite as good as cardboard alternatives as it still carries a (low) level of dust, but it's certainly preferable to shavings in my opinion and works out no more expensive in actual use.
 
thanks, the only thing about the future animal bedding is if you search the telephone number of the manufacturer it also comes back to a refuse haluage firm. So my guess is that they are collecting the cardboards for recycling and just chopping it up and bagging it which worries me slightly. The cardboard is the corragated stuff and on all the bales I saw the cardboard was brown on one side and white on the other, I did notice gold writting on the white side on some of the small pieces. The first vet we saw did say uri, heres your baytril, three visits later and now we are at this stage.
 
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