Struggling to help my guinea with her breathing issues

[Guineatte]

My guinea pig Muschi has had always periods of noisy breathing but until now we have always managed to get it under control. In March she got x-ray and CT scan because I was so sure that it is caused by a heart disease. Her sister died last year of an enlarged heart. But the vet said everything looks fine, no trouble with her heart, maybe some small spots on her lungs. Because Muschi also has a chronic eye infection with the pink of her eyes growing on top and bottom of her eyes, the vet suggested it could be chlamydia and we gave her 21 days Doxycycline which she coped with very well. She seemed to improve, became livelier, ate well and stopped the breathing sounds.
Last month her mother, Eden, flared up with the same symptoms, a strange rattle in her breathing, head nodding and then she lost interest in her food. As we didn’t have any Doxycycline left we gave her Baytril and Frusol. Our vet was very hesitant to give her Frusol but we agreed to try it. She went for an CT scan but the vet couldn’t see annything obvious. No water in the chest, no tumor, no enlarged heart. After 4 days of Frusol, nearly 3 weeks syringe feeding
Metacam and Baytril Eden is now better than ever.
And immediately Muschi starts to deteriorate. Her breathing grew more and more pronounced, she hardly moves, ate more slowly and lost more and more interest in food. We thought we give her Baytril which had such a positive effect on Eden but she got really sick from it after just one day. She had diarrhoea and refused to eat. So we gave her a break of a couple of days and started Doxycycline again.
But 3 weeks later she had a turn for the worse. Since yesterday she really struggles to breathe, her sides are heaving and nostrils flaring. She doesn’t eat. This morning she took a syringe of Critical Care quite easily but by lunch she started to reject all food. We went with her to the vet and I had a whole list of possible medications with me. I did a full night of research and prepared possible dosages and risks/side effects.
But already the first one, the antibiotic Marbocyl, was rejected by the vet. I read this and Zithromax are the strongest antibiotics used for URI. She said she knows them for dogs and cats but they are also used for humans so in order to avoid bacteria resistance she prefers not to give it to Muschi. I understand the point about not over prescribing antibiotics but for Muschi it’s potentially life saving. And she doesn’t get in contact with anyone apart from us and even I don’t meet many people right now because of my cancer treatment. Has anyone had the same experience with their vet?
My next point was if we couldn’t try administer Baytril via a nebuliser. We especially bought one for Muschi yesterday. The vet knew about nebulisers but only for dogs and cats. So she doesn’t want to give us the Baytril. We should continue Doxycycline and wait until after the weekend. At least we have saline solution which we used tonight for the first time. But I wish we had the Baytril. I only have the oral one at home, I heard it doesn’t work well in a nebuliser and I wouldn’t know how to dose it. (Apparently my vet neither)
I could convince the vet that we try Frusol and a bronchial dilator for a couple of days.
Now Muschi doesn’t chew her Critical Care and makes strange squeaky sounds in the nose or throat when I give her water or food. I don’t know how to even attempt to get her through this critical stage and give her a fighting chance if she doesn’t eat or drink.
Our vet is generally good and we are with them for years after we tried so many others but we seem to be the only customers with guinea pigs. They are willing to listen and discuss but they just don’t have enough experience.
Now I am desperate how I can help my Muschi. I managed to pull her mother through and in January our boy when he contracted a bladder infection and stopped eating after his neutering surgery. But if she cannot eat because she cannot breathe it looks rather hopeless. Should I try to find another vet? How would I know if he is better?

 

[Wiebke]

Hi

I am very sorry. The need to breathe comes before the need to drink and only thirdly the need to eat. Loss of appetite (and thirst, so you also need to offer water - always only as much as a piggy is able to hold in their mouths, depending on their strength and size) are always an indicator of the seriousness of a respiratory problem.
All About Syringe Feeding and Medicating Guinea Pigs with Videos and Pictures

Frusol is pretty regularly used by exotics vets; I have had it successfully for my own.
The diaphragmic breathing is worrying because that usually means a fluid build up either in the lungs or in the chest cavity.

As to antibiotics, ultimately only a nasal swab and a lab test can find which antibiotics whatever bug your piggies have are responding to. I have had zithromax prescribed for piggies of mine a few times; usually for abscesses and a severe eye infection in older piggies where a removal operation was not an option; but I have been lucky not to have any respiratory illnesses in piggies of mine for over a decade. The combination of marbocyl and zithromax can work in extreme cases.

Unfortunately, it all comes down to whether you can find an antibiotic that Muschi reacts quickly enough. My fingers are very firmly crossed.
Emergency and Crisis Care as well as Bridging Care until a Vet Appointment

 

[Guineatte]

Hi

I am very sorry. The need to breathe comes before the need to drink and only thirdly the need to eat. Loss of appetite (and thirst, so you also need to offer water - always only as much as a piggy is able to hold in their mouths, depending on their strength and size) are always an indicator of the seriousness of a respiratory problem.
All About Syringe Feeding and Medicating Guinea Pigs with Videos and Pictures

Frusol is pretty regularly used by exotics vets; I have had it successfully for my own.
The diaphragmic breathing is worrying because that usually means a fluid build up either in the lungs or in the chest cavity.

As to antibiotics, ultimately only a nasal swab and a lab test can find which antibiotics whatever bug your piggies have are responding to. I have had zithromax prescribed for piggies of mine a few times; usually for abscesses and a severe eye infection in older piggies where a removal operation was not an option; but I have been lucky not to have any respiratory illnesses in piggies of mine for over a decade. The combination of marbocyl and zithromax can work in extreme cases.

Unfortunately, it all comes down to whether you can find an antibiotic that Muschi reacts quickly enough. My fingers are very firmly crossed.
Emergency and Crisis Care as well as Bridging Care until a Vet Appointment

Thank you so much for your reply. My vet spoke to an exotics specialist and told me that we won’t get Marbocyl or Zithromax because they are restricted antibiotics. I don’t understand, she knows how desperately ill Muschi is and I read here on the forum from so many that their vets prescribe these antibiotics. It feels to me that my guinea pig is not worthy enough to be treated. She also didn’t give me Baytril for the nebuliser despite Baytril working so well for Muschi’s mom. If I just could give her the oral Baytril. But my vet said that we needed to put Muschi under general anaesthesia to find out what bacteria are causing her issues. Of course that isn’t any longer possible considering the state Muschi is in. Why could not have done that 2 months earlier.

Now Muschi is going more and more downhill, she starts to feel cold, not alert at all and shivering (which could be from the bronchial dilator) My husband insists on keeping trying and tries to syring feed her but she just doesn’t get enough water/food. We ordered F10 antiseptic solution as suggested by the vet.
It’s difficult to see how Muschi’s is getting weaker and weaker while we cannot do anything to really help her.
I took a Monday online appointment with The Guinea Pig Vet in Matlock. Hopefully Muschi is still alive then and not already too deteriorated.
We live in Kenilworth just outside Coventry. Could anyone recommend a guinea pig savvy vet who knows about these breathing troubles?

 

[Wiebke]

Thank you so much for your reply. My vet spoke to an exotics specialist and told me that we won’t get Marbocyl or Zithromax because they are restricted antibiotics. I don’t understand, she knows how desperately ill Muschi is and I read here on the forum from so many that their vets prescribe these antibiotics. It feels to me that my guinea pig is not worthy enough to be treated. She also didn’t give me Baytril for the nebuliser despite Baytril working so well for Muschi’s mom. If I just could give her the oral Baytril. But my vet said that we needed to put Muschi under general anaesthesia to find out what bacteria are causing her issues. Of course that isn’t any longer possible considering the state Muschi is in. Why could not have done that 2 months earlier.

Now Muschi is going more and more downhill, she starts to feel cold, not alert at all and shivering (which could be from the bronchial dilator) My husband insists on keeping trying and tries to syring feed her but she just doesn’t get enough water/food. We ordered F10 antiseptic solution as suggested by the vet.
It’s difficult to see how Muschi’s is getting weaker and weaker while we cannot do anything to really help her.
I took a Monday online appointment with The Guinea Pig Vet in Matlock. Hopefully Muschi is still alive then and not already too deteriorated.
We live in Kenilworth just outside Coventry. Could anyone recommend a guinea pig savvy vet who knows about these breathing troubles?

Hi

I am extremely sorry to be the bearer of bad news, but a guinea pig that feels cold is usually a one whose body is closing down.

If you have microwaveable snuggle safes, please heat one no more than halfway so it is just nicely warm but not hot to keep her comfortable. Otherwise, wrap her up in a soft, warm fleece.
If she is starting to really fight the syringe much in excess to her growing weakness, then it is usually a sign that she is no longer able to process any food.

This guide link here discusses the line of no return and how to spot it but it also guides you through the whole process. Often when a bug finally breaks through and overwhelms the immune system, it does so with devastating speed and force in a compromised piggy. That is where their small body is really against them.
A Practical and Sensitive Guide to Dying, Terminal Illness and Euthanasia in Guinea Pigs

My throughts are with Muschi and you.

PS: Please keep in mind that regulations and advice re. medication is subject to change, especially in the current climate where demand by far exceeds production and where we face a rising problem with resistancy. Guinea pigs sadly come rather late in the queue.

 

[Guineatte]

Thank you for your kind words. We just come back from the out of hours vet where we had Muschi put to sleep. She became more and more uncomfortable and restless despite looking so exhausted and she started to stretch her neck ever so often to catch a breath. We couldn’t wait until tomorrow morning. Up until then tried what we could to help her without putting too much stress on her. By the end she just stopped swallowing.

I read the guide on dying and euthanasia. It is the best I have seen anywhere on the internet. All the guides here are so helpful.

Now her mom is on her own. We have three others but she cannot stand them. Whenever one of them managed to get into their place, the mother and daughter duo immediately wrestled them down. Mom was always looking after Muschi, grooming her and letting her eat all the best bites. She will be lonely now. And she has already started to rattle breathe tonight. I hope we get it back under control.

I understand the antibiotic issue, my father is a medical doctor and we ourselves are very cautious treating with antibiotics. But I found it a bit odd that over the last year whenever one of the girls started to rattle the same vet immediately prescribed Sulfatrim and Baytril and also Doxycycline. Repeatedly, even when I questioned if it isn’t possible that there is another reason for their noisy breathing. But when the situation became desperate she didn’t even want to give me Baytril so I could try to administer via the nebuliser.

 

[piggl]

I am very sorry to hear this.

Rest easy Muschi

 

[Claire W]

I am very sorry for your loss

Sleep tight Muschi xx

 

[Wiebke]

Thank you for your kind words. We just come back from the out of hours vet where we had Muschi put to sleep. She became more and more uncomfortable and restless despite looking so exhausted and she started to stretch her neck ever so often to catch a breath. We couldn’t wait until tomorrow morning. Up until then tried what we could to help her without putting too much stress on her. By the end she just stopped swallowing.

I read the guide on dying and euthanasia. It is the best I have seen anywhere on the internet. All the guides here are so helpful.

Now her mom is on her own. We have three others but she cannot stand them. Whenever one of them managed to get into their place, the mother and daughter duo immediately wrestled them down. Mom was always looking after Muschi, grooming her and letting her eat all the best bites. She will be lonely now. And she has already started to rattle breathe tonight. I hope we get it back under control.

I understand the antibiotic issue, my father is a medical doctor and we ourselves are very cautious treating with antibiotics. But I found it a bit odd that over the last year whenever one of the girls started to rattle the same vet immediately prescribed Sulfatrim and Baytril and also Doxycycline. Repeatedly, even when I questioned if it isn’t possible that there is another reason for their noisy breathing. But when the situation became desperate she didn’t even want to give me Baytril so I could try to administer via the nebuliser.

BIG HUGS

I am so very sorry but you have done absolutely the right thing. Muschi couldn't have found a more loving and caring piggy home. She and Eden would likely not have lived for as long without having found you.

But I am so sorry about you and her mother - no end to the worries.
My fingers are firmly crossed that you can get the symptoms under control and that you can have a swab test done to see which antibiotics she is reacting to. We are here for moral support.

Eden would have known before you that Muschi was very ill/dying and Muschi's loss will unfortunately have an immune lowering effect on her; especially in as close as bond as theirs. All you can do is see how it goes and to support her.
Because of their respiratory symptoms and the transmission risk it is unfortunately not an option for you to put her right next to your other piggies with interaction through the bars - even hostile territorial behaviour counts as interaction and enrichment.

If it is any consolation for you, I am currently stuck with my own determined single widow Cerian who has just turned 6 years but who categorically refuses any company in her space. She and Breila were both very wrapped up with each other and were usually sharing a hut during the night (the only piggies of mine ever to do so on a daily basis). Cerian would dominance hump any potential (guaranteed non-aggressive) husboar out of her territory and Breila would defence lunge at any other piggy. Breila sadly died unexpectedly just before Christmas. Cerian's aging process has noticeably speeded up since then; she's just come through a wobble and I had to up her pain meds. She has a mixed pair of young piggies as next door neighbours that cannot challenge her. It is always so difficult with single widows...
Anyway, in Cerian's case, I am concentrating on terminal comfort care but not on any life-prolonging treatments since her sparkle has gone and she clearly misses Breila badly all the time. I want my piggies to have s much as possible what they define as a happy life before a long life for my own gratification. It has not been an easy decision or one I have taken lightly or that I have had to make often. Most companions have thankfully accepted new company (in the cage or through the bars) sooner or later with very few exceptions.

Anyway, I am glad that my guide has been able to help you through your darkest hours. It doesn't make for easy reading and it was very difficult for me to write with all the painful memories coming up again but I strongly felt the lack of detailed, clear and easy to follow on the ground guidance. Everybody else was just kind of glossing over the really tricky bits that tend to trip up and really upset owners - and that is the bit (or its consequences) we are confronted with on here most often.

 

[Wheekallweek]

Aw, so sorry you've lost Muschi. She's free from suffering now. RIP little one, over the Bridge x