Sludge, bladder stones

[PennyCopper]

Hello again,
Our sweet Cowboy is back in vet for a bladder stone (on xray) and sludge. A year ago he had surgery to remove a stone and I never fed him spinach, kale, or any veggie on that calcium list again. Today he had sludge removed. After eliminating the bad veggies completely and still gets sludge? I guess its the pellets. His whole life (3years) he has been on Oxbow. One of the posts here states Oxbow has high calcium. I also read that many Guineas suffer with sludge or stones. I even read that A LOT of GP owners have had to stop using Oxbow due to the high calcium. Why wont they make a lower grain formula for the sensitive Guineas? I already use bottled water, too.
I live in the United States and would love to know the lowest calcium brands of pellets please. I hope that with a new pellet we can avoid future pain and discomfort for Cowboy and avoid the vet! We thank you for your time to reply and share what you know.

 

[Piggies&buns]

I’m sorry to hear this.

Pellets, even low calcium ones, contain more calcium than veg does. This is why pellets need to be kept limited to one tablespoon per pig per day only. Drinking water also contains a lot of calcium depending on your location and we recommend using filtered water. These two steps are the most useful in reducing calcium intake. Then making sure you don’t feed too much high calcium veg. Its not just about calcium though, there is also oxalates as part of the issue.
These steps - limited pellets, filtered water and not too much high calcium veg - are all we can do as owners as there is also a genetic element to their likelihood of bladder issues, there is obviously nothing that can be done about genetics.

A lot of owners here use Science Selective Grain Free pellets but I’m not sure what you can get in the US.

Long Term Balanced General And Special Needs Guinea Pig Diets

 

[Free Ranger]

I'm so sorry for your issues - poor Cowboy. It's so much harder for the boys too as girls at least have a chance of passing small stones on their own. Is he an older boy? Or is he a young one? Perhaps look into some sort of glucosamine supplement along with whatever painkiller the vet has prescribed - I learned about this on this forum. Glucosamine supports battered bladders and is a food supplement so doesn't need a prescription - you just buy it. It's also beneficial for arthritis which is why my boy George is on it. We have oxbow joint support 'cookies' for him - one a day to crunch. My girl Louise also gets half a one for bladder support. there are other forms of glucosamine that people use - do a little search on here - I think there's something called 4joints too. It takes a couple of weeks to build up and take effect but because of the change I've seen in George I'm a total convert (although check the calcium content in that too!) It probably doesn't make a difference to stone formation but can help with the pain and inflammation that stones and sludge can cause.

Stones are a piggy problem because unlike people they absorb all the calcium they eat. Then they have to get rid of it and that happens through the bladder route. We just absorb what we need and poop out the rest - but our teeth are always growing so we don't need so much.

I've settled on two types of pellets: Burgess excel (which they don't like so much) and a less posh 'own brand' from a shop here called Pets at Home (which they love) but neither are especially low calcium. I have 3 pigs and reduced the amount of pellets over a few weeks when they first went in together as there were some tensions and I didn't want to cause a big fight! My bottom pig is also my fattest and she definitely eats more than her share of pellets and she's the one I have to watch for gritty pee. I think it's definitely the quantity and I would say that's made the biggest difference for us. They mainly get the unpopular pellets with a sprinkle of the beloved ones on top. I'm a mean mommy! But if I gave them a shovel full of PaH pellets they'd probably eat the lot!

Bottled water can either be high or low calcium. My tap water is very high: about 300mg/L calcium (what they call 'hard' water) and filtering is supposed to reduce about 90% so that would be about 30mg/L (which would be classed as 'soft' as it's under 60) and that would be good enough. But I found some bottled in the supermarket that is listed at 3mg/L and we have that as I've had stone trouble in the past. But some bottled waters are actually high calcium. Usually sold as 'mineral water' here they are popular with vegetarians, older people and those others who want more calcium in their diet. So have a quick look at your label to check it. I changed to bottled water about the same time as dropping the pellets and this has made a difference for us.

My vet had an old boar who developed a sizable bladder stone. She said he was unlikely to survive any op so he managed on pain meds until... well, you know. This vet said she had operated successfully on pigs before and 2 weeks later another stone had developed. It seems this can happen for some pigs - so you've done well to be trouble free for so long since the last op. But one thing I would say is that I had a little sow who unexpectedly passed a stone and also got a urine infection. She was treated with antibiotics and x-rayed again. That vet (I see several t the same practice) told me she could see another stone and it did look like one... except it was right at the exit to the bladder. I said, "could that just be sludge that has 'drained' and accumulated there as she has emptied her bladder?" and the vet said it could and that in all truth we couldn't tell. This piggy - being a girl - had a chance to pass whatever it was on her own and was treated accordingly with a strong opioid injection to zonk her out and then a big fluid injection under her skin (like 10-15ml) to make her pee for hours. It wasn't nice but it did work. Whatever was there was flushed away... but I never found a second stone in the cage. I guess what I'm trying to say is that are they certain that it was a stone on x-ray? If he's had a bladder flush will he be x-rayed again before any operation?

Sorry for the massive post. I'll be thinking about you - stones make an owners heart sink. Good luck Cowboy and be brave. Let us know how he gets on x

 

[PennyCopper]

I’m sorry to hear this.

Pellets, even low calcium ones, contain more calcium than veg does. This is why pellets need to be kept limited to one tablespoon per pig per day only. Drinking water also contains a lot of calcium depending on your location and we recommend using filtered water. These two steps are the most useful in reducing calcium intake. Then making sure you don’t feed too much high calcium veg. Its not just about calcium though, there is also oxalates as part of the issue.
These steps - limited pellets, filtered water and not too much high calcium veg - are all we can do as owners as there is also a genetic element to their likelihood of bladder issues, there is obviously nothing that can be done about genetics.

A lot of owners here use Science Selective Grain Free pellets but I’m not sure what you can get in the US.

Long Term Balanced General And Special Needs Guinea Pig Diets

Thank you for the support and information. We only give two teaspoons pellets a day of Oxbow. Bottled water and avoid the major calcium veggies.
I am on Google now searching for pellets lower in calcium. All I can find in US are the Vitakraft Menu Care Complete pellets. Unable to find Vetcare Plus Multi Modal or JR Farms in the US.
I will try Vitakraft and mix with the Oxbow. The piggies get one teaspoon in the morning and 1 tsp in the evening.
We will see, discouraging the US has so few options.

 

[Piggies&buns]

Youre definitely not overdoing the pellets.
It’s also worth noting that a diet too low in calcium can knock the balance off and cause problems. Its a complicated subject and working out a balance isn’t always easy.

I can see vitakraft menu Care complex (but not complete) so not sure if it’s the same thing, but I wouldn’t feed the complex if that is what it is as it contains alfalfa meal and a lot of grains - neither of which should be in the diet.

 

[PennyCopper]

Youre definitely not overdoing the pellets.
It’s also worth noting that a diet too low in calcium can knock the balance off and cause problems. Its a complicated subject and working out a balance isn’t always easy.

I can see vitakraft menu Care complex (but not complete) so not sure if it’s the same thing, but I wouldn’t feed the complex if that is what it is as it contains alfalfa meal and a lot of grains - neither of which should be in the diet.

I found the 'complete' but it literally has a stamp on it promoting 7 grains. Ugh. So frustrating. I'm sticking with Oxbow until I figure this out. Their All In One ingredients have oats listed in top 5 ingredients. So BAD

 

[Wiebke]

Hi and welcome

I am very sorry about your repeated problems
You could research into a pellet-free diet with some dried or fresh forage instead. Pellets are the disposable part of the diet. Together with the veg they cover the supplementary role that wild forage would have had in addition to the normal grass/hay (dry grass) diet. Keep in mind that anything dried has a higher calcium content as it doesn't evaporate with the water.

If your piggy is a bad drinker (as bladder piggies often are), I would also recommend to consider feeding more cucumber and lettuce to encourage stronger pees to wash out the bladder more so bacteria cannot build up as much and help promote the formation of stones/sludge. Veg high in oxalates also play a role in the formation of stones. It is not so much about as little calcium as possible (the low extreme is as bad as overfeeding it) but finding the sweet spot where things are in balance. Since local conditions are playing into it, there is not a 'one size fits all' diet recommendation.

Fresh dandelion is also good because it is a mild diuretic that encourages stronger peeing if you feed it together with watery veg or you could discuss a suitable medication with your vet. The calcium absorption process is very complex and quite a lot can go round. There are also factors that like a genetic disposition that we cannot control playing into the formation of stones and/or sludge.

This guide here may be a start to look into alternatives: Long Term Balanced General And Special Needs Guinea Pig Diets

 

[PennyCopper]

Hi and welcome
I am very sorry about your repeated problems
You could research into a pellet-free diet with some dried or fresh forage instead. Pellets are the disposable part of the diet. Together with the veg they cover the supplementary role that wild forage would have had in addition to the normal grass/hay (dry grass) diet. Keep in mind that anything dried has a higher calcium content as it doesn't evaporate with the water.

If your piggy is a bad drinker (as bladder piggies often are), I would also recommend to consider feeding more cucumber and lettuce to encourage stronger pees to wash out the bladder more so bacteria cannot build up as much and help promote the formation of stones/sludge. Veg high in oxalates also play a role in the formation of stones. It is not so much about as little calcium as possible (the low extreme is as bad as overfeeding it) but finding the sweet spot where things are in balance. Since local conditions are playing into it, there is not a 'one size fits all' diet recommendation.

Fresh dandelion is also good because it is a mild diuretic that encourages stronger peeing if you feed it together with watery veg or you could discuss a suitable medication with your vet. The calcium absorption process is very complex and quite a lot can go round. There are also factors that like a genetic disposition that we cannot control playing into the formation of stones and/or sludge.

This guide here may be a start to look into alternatives: Long Term Balanced General And Special Needs Guinea Pig Diets

Thank you for the incredbly knowledgeable reply. He must be susceptible and prone genetically. I really like and will incorporate cucumber, we do give green leaf and/or red leaf lettuce daily but YES to more cucumber for water. 'The sweet spot', illusive at this point. You helped clarify the misconception about lower calcium, I understand. For now adding cucumber and dandilion (where to buy it fresh I need to research) should be helpful to him. I have not had a chance to talk to the vet. Picking him up at the vets office today I was told she was too busy to consult so I emailed her my questions and concerns. Still waiting to hear back. When I do I will mention the idea of a possible medication, if there are any. You mentioned Veg high in oxalates and I will research those. Your so kind to take the time help us through the forum.

 

[PennyCopper]

Wow, are you an angel? everyone on here is so kind and helpful, you are too! Thank you for the information. I am saving all of it and will try the pellets you mentioned. You really taught me a lot. The water too is interesting. Both bottles I have here at home have no ingredient label on them. I have to Google or call the c9mpany for that info. The water is not mineral, one is distilled wtr and one is spring wtr. It so sad to hear Cowy cry in pain and discomfort when he wees and then has to be poked and proded at the vets- I really want to make sure I am doing what I can to prevent it again (if it's possible). I am learning on this forum a lot is genetic. Well, I am armed with knowlege now so fingers crossed we can make a difference for Cowboy. Thank you again for taking the time to reply.

I'm so sorry for your issues - poor Cowboy. It's so much harder for the boys too as girls at least have a chance of passing small stones on their own. Is he an older boy? Or is he a young one? Perhaps look into some sort of glucosamine supplement along with whatever painkiller the vet has prescribed - I learned about this on this forum. Glucosamine supports battered bladders and is a food supplement so doesn't need a prescription - you just buy it. It's also beneficial for arthritis which is why my boy George is on it. We have oxbow joint support 'cookies' for him - one a day to crunch. My girl Louise also gets half a one for bladder support. there are other forms of glucosamine that people use - do a little search on here - I think there's something called 4joints too. It takes a couple of weeks to build up and take effect but because of the change I've seen in George I'm a total convert (although check the calcium content in that too!) It probably doesn't make a difference to stone formation but can help with the pain and inflammation that stones and sludge can cause.

Stones are a piggy problem because unlike people they absorb all the calcium they eat. Then they have to get rid of it and that happens through the bladder route. We just absorb what we need and poop out the rest - but our teeth are always growing so we don't need so much.

I've settled on two types of pellets: Burgess excel (which they don't like so much) and a less posh 'own brand' from a shop here called Pets at Home (which they love) but neither are especially low calcium. I have 3 pigs and reduced the amount of pellets over a few weeks when they first went in together as there were some tensions and I didn't want to cause a big fight! My bottom pig is also my fattest and she definitely eats more than her share of pellets and she's the one I have to watch for gritty pee. I think it's definitely the quantity and I would say that's made the biggest difference for us. They mainly get the unpopular pellets with a sprinkle of the beloved ones on top. I'm a mean mommy! But if I gave them a shovel full of PaH pellets they'd probably eat the lot!

Bottled water can either be high or low calcium. My tap water is very high: about 300mg/L calcium (what they call 'hard' water) and filtering is supposed to reduce about 90% so that would be about 30mg/L (which would be classed as 'soft' as it's under 60) and that would be good enough. But I found some bottled in the supermarket that is listed at 3mg/L and we have that as I've had stone trouble in the past. But some bottled waters are actually high calcium. Usually sold as 'mineral water' here they are popular with vegetarians, older people and those others who want more calcium in their diet. So have a quick look at your label to check it. I changed to bottled water about the same time as dropping the pellets and this has made a difference for us.

My vet had an old boar who developed a sizable bladder stone. She said he was unlikely to survive any op so he managed on pain meds until... well, you know. This vet said she had operated successfully on pigs before and 2 weeks later another stone had developed. It seems this can happen for some pigs - so you've done well to be trouble free for so long since the last op. But one thing I would say is that I had a little sow who unexpectedly passed a stone and also got a urine infection. She was treated with antibiotics and x-rayed again. That vet (I see several t the same practice) told me she could see another stone and it did look like one... except it was right at the exit to the bladder. I said, "could that just be sludge that has 'drained' and accumulated there as she has emptied her bladder?" and the vet said it could and that in all truth we couldn't tell. This piggy - being a girl - had a chance to pass whatever it was on her own and was treated accordingly with a strong opioid injection to zonk her out and then a big fluid injection under her skin (like 10-15ml) to make her pee for hours. It wasn't nice but it did work. Whatever was there was flushed away... but I never found a second stone in the cage. I guess what I'm trying to say is that are they certain that it was a stone on x-ray? If he's had a bladder flush will he be x-rayed again before any operation?

Sorry for the massive post. I'll be thinking about you - stones make an owners heart sink. Good luck Cowboy and be brave. Let us know how he gets on x

 

[Wiebke]

Thank you for the incredbly knowledgeable reply. He must be susceptible and prone genetically. I really like and will incorporate cucumber, we do give green leaf and/or red leaf lettuce daily but YES to more cucumber for water. 'The sweet spot', illusive at this point. You helped clarify the misconception about lower calcium, I understand. For now adding cucumber and dandilion (where to buy it fresh I need to research) should be helpful to him. I have not had a chance to talk to the vet. Picking him up at the vets office today I was told she was too busy to consult so I emailed her my questions and concerns. Still waiting to hear back. When I do I will mention the idea of a possible medication, if there are any. You mentioned Veg high in oxalates and I will research those. Your so kind to take the time help us through the forum.

Our diet recommendations for guinea pigs with urinary tract issues cut out pretty much all veg/food groups high in oxalates (see chapter special diets). It is what is working out for us in daily long term practice. We are incorporating more advice that has stood a practical test as new experiences are made: Long Term Balanced General And Special Needs Guinea Pig Diets
More about veg high in oxalates (please keep in mind that it is all about balance): Guinea Lynx ::Oxalic Acid in Selected Vegetables

Filtering your water is also a good measure, as minerals can contribute to especially the formation of sludge, not just calcium. Counter to what most people think, most stones are actually mostly carbohydrate based (and a very few oxalate based) but they are actually not mostly calcium.
Guinea pigs that drink a lot rarely suffer from stones. The problem is that individual water intake varies widely and that you cannot just make a piggy drink more. You can either have a session per day where you can encourage them to drink willingly from a syringe in order to produce one larger pee (NEVER force water down a pet that is still eating), feed more watery and at the same time mildly diuretic veg or get something like potassium citrate or medication to promote peeing.
All About Drinking And Bottles

Young dandelions are unfortunately rather seasonal but lettuce is also mildly diuretic.

 

[PennyCopper]

Regarding the glucosamine, he does have arthritis in his spine, do you buy tablets for humans? Or is your piggie getting the glucosamine through the Oxbow 'cookies'? Thank you.

 

[Wiebke]

Regarding the glucosamine, he does have arthritis in his spine, do you buy tablets for humans? Or is your piggie getting the glucosamine through the Oxbow 'cookies'? Thank you.

Hi

If your boy is getting the glucosamine from the cookies, then that is fine. Cat bladder supplements in capsule form will work best for both bladder walls (they have a natural glucosamine coating which prevents urine from getting in painful contact with raw tissue) and joints as an easy way for dosing (empty the contents of one capsule into 2 ml of water, shake, and then give either 1 ml twice daily or 2 ml of the solution once daily). Human tablets will also do (they are cheapest) but they are most difficult to compute the dosage.

 

[Free Ranger]

Or is your piggie getting the glucosamine through the Oxbow 'cookies'?

George gets daily glucosamine with one oxbow joint support tablet per day. this contains 90mg glucosamine. I just got them from amazon - it's this stuff Oxbow Animal Health
Louise has a half tablet. They both really like it so it's a good method for us. My other pig (who has no issues) won't touch them so that's quite handy as she doesn't get jealous!

The cat bladder supplements are popular with people whose pigs have a non-bacterial form of cystitis (sterile interstitial cystitis) which is characterised by occasional flare-ups triggered possible by some foods and certainly by stress - although not every stressed pig gets SIC or more people would know about it! These poor pigs have a very difficult time. It also happens in cats - a much more common pet - which is presumably why the cat bladder supplement was created. I met a young tom cat at the vets who had been battling SIC for a few weeks following a house move. Unless the owner/vet is very piggy experienced it tends only to be identified when the other more usual culprits (UTI, sludge, stones etc) have been ruled out. But stones and sludge can also batter the bladder so if glucosamine can help make him feel a little better it's worth a shot.

 

[PennyCopper]

George gets daily glucosamine with one oxbow joint support tablet per day. this contains 90mg glucosamine. I just got them from amazon - it's this stuff Oxbow Animal Health
Louise has a half tablet. They both really like it so it's a good method for us. My other pig (who has no issues) won't touch them so that's quite handy as she doesn't get jealous!

The cat bladder supplements are popular with people whose pigs have a non-bacterial form of cystitis (sterile interstitial cystitis) which is characterised by occasional flare-ups triggered possible by some foods and certainly by stress - although not every stressed pig gets SIC or more people would know about it! These poor pigs have a very difficult time. It also happens in cats - a much more common pet - which is presumably why the cat bladder supplement was created. I met a young tom cat at the vets who had been battling SIC for a few weeks following a house move. Unless the owner/vet is very piggy experienced it tends only to be identified when the other more usual culprits (UTI, sludge, stones etc) have been ruled out. But stones and sludge can also batter the bladder so if glucosamine can help make him feel a little better it's worth a shot.

Great information, I will get on the Oxbow joint support today! That works out for you that the one piggie that doesn't like the tablet does not need it.

 

[Free Ranger]

PS: I forgot to add earlier about the piggy that ended up with a stone but passed it - I'd put extra drinking bottles in the cages to try and encourage drinking but the most successful ploy was to put one near the hidey where she usually slept at night with the spout actually pointing in there so she only had to stick a nose out to get a drink. Then we heard that bottle a lot in the night. I think she'd been reluctant to emerge in the dark... whether she was nervous or just worried one of the others might pinch her spot I don't know! The 3 I have at the minute mainly drink when eating pellets or munching hay but I've used the same ploy and have 4 bottles all right next to the covered areas of the piggy area. They are used by someone out in the open eating pellets but you also see just a nose emerging for a few sips quit a lot of the time!

 

[PennyCopper]

PS: I forgot to add earlier about the piggy that ended up with a stone but passed it - I'd put extra drinking bottles in the cages to try and encourage drinking but the most successful ploy was to put one near the hidey where she usually slept at night with the spout actually pointing in there so she only had to stick a nose out to get a drink. Then we heard that bottle a lot in the night. I think she'd been reluctant to emerge in the dark... whether she was nervous or just worried one of the others might pinch her spot I don't know! The 3 I have at the minute mainly drink when eating pellets or munching hay but I've used the same ploy and have 4 bottles all right next to the covered areas of the piggy area. They are used by someone out in the open eating pellets but you also see just a nose emerging for a few sips quit a lot of the time!

Aw, that is cute she doesn't want to leave her spot. And it is a good idea. I can try that for Cowboy. Thank you for the suggestion. These poor little ones so delicate.