Should I Separate Them?

[Solspiggies]

Hi, I've posted here before about cages ect...but now I have a question and need advice.
Here goes! Around 4 weeks ago a friend of mine gave me two female piggies, that came from litter that was born 2 months before, so that makes them 3months old now. They were living outdoors in a chicken coop with lots other piggies.
Its my 1st time with guinea pigs and I have done quite a bit of research and learning every day, I've made them a 2x3 c&c cage with fleece bedding with a 2x2 loft/kitchen Which now I'm going to redesign and make it 2x4 and move things around etc...its like I say, I'm learning as I go along, but that what I love!
Anyway my concern is about my actual piggies, one of them is bullying the other, she chases her out of where ever she is hidding,sleeping, eating, she bites her, purrs at her , steals her food when i hand feed her and basically just bullies her! I'm progressing with the other one with taming her, shell come to me, smell my hand, take food from my hand, even lap time is getting more relaxed, but as soon as she's approaching me for a treat or something ANGEL (that's the bully's name,how ironic) just goes for her, scares her and she runs off. Angel hardly ever comnes to me.
I'm not sure if they are sisters as my friend had several couples and two mummy's gave birth at similar times, so maybe they are not siblings.
Someone suggested separating them but I don't want two lonely pigs and CAN'T have two cages!
My friend is happy to take Angel back but that leaves me with one lonely very young Piggie.
What should I do?
Persist with Angel?
Give her back and find a more suitable companion?
What would be a more suitable companion? Another youngling or older more mature female?
I've heard that young ones learn from their elders, is this true?
All she's learning now is how to run away from her roommate!
Any advice is welcomed.
Thank you!

 

[sport_billy]

Do you have two of everything? Two hideys etc?

How long has the behavior been happening? Am tagging in @Wiebke

 

[Solspiggies]

Yes they have plenty of spaces to hide, maybe not two the same, but there is a tunnel and a house/box upstairs, downstairs there is a snuggle sack, a tunnel, a wicker teepee thingy, a corner tray with fleze curtain so its covered, and a cuddle cup. They have plenty of spaces to get away from each other.
Rosie Posie (the one being bullied) sits happily in her box for example and Angel will jump in and purr at her, bite her and make Rosie jump out and run down, then Angel will follow her and do the same again wherever she's gone to next. Is this normal behaviour?
Its been getting worse every day the more confident they are getting. When first got them they were scared of everything, but now they are becoming more confident its started maybe two weeks ago and getting worse.

 

[GPcrazy]

If Angel won't let Rosie eat at all then that is a very serious issue.

With mine, Patches is the dominant one, so if she is in the house with the pellets, or in the hay box, and Nia tries to come in, then Patches will chase her out and make her wait until she's finished. But if Patches has had her turn then she totally allows Nia in and so Nia still gets plenty of hay and pellets and veg. It's more a case of "i'm the boss so I go first".

If Angel is deliberately following Rosie around and refusing her access to the things she needs no matter where or when she tries then it is very serious and you might need to try something else.

 

[Wiebke]

Please feed them any pellets and veg in small portions that can be eaten in one go in two separate bowls that are at least a body length apart, ideally across the cage 2-3 times a day, so your undergirl can eat her share of 40g of pellets (i.e. 2 handfuls, of which you give one in the morning and one in the evening; reduce to half a handful twice daily after 4-6 months of age) and 50g of mixed veg per day. Don't leave anything hanging round for Angel to hog and remove the empty bowls. Up to 80% of the daily food intake should be unlimited hay anyway, so they can eat that in the meantime between meals and will be all the healthier for it!

Make sure that you have everything double, one for each piggy; the same item placed well away from the other ideally at either end of the cage. 1 hidey, water bottle, food bowl (which you only have in the cage with a small portion of food) and hay rack. Make sure that any hidey in the in the cage has got two exits, so your undergirl cannot be cornered or "locked in" by a bully. If necessary, create cardboard box stools with four open sides to allow an easy escape. See whether that works better when Angel can't physically cover it all. Is the chasing etc. constant or is it worse about every two weeks when Angel comes into season?
If you are worried that your girls are not getting on, you can try an temporary separation with a divider. if your undergirl is perking up noticeably away from Angel, then the bond is not viable. If she is calling out to Angel and is trying her best to get back to Angel, then you know that they still want to be together and you have to let them be in the knowledge that they are firmly bonded and happy.
Sow Behaviour
Boars: Bullying, Fighting, Fall-outs And What Next? (the tips also work for sows if the bond isnot going smoothly!)
The Importance Of Weighing - Ideal Weight / Overweight / Underweight

How big is your cage? The minimum recommendation by welfare organisations in English speaking countries is 60x120cm (2x4 ft) whereas in European countries it is sadly still 50x150cm.
Cage Size Guide

If all these tips don't work and the bond is really dysfunctional, please separate them and find a new friend for your undergirl, ideally a piggy that is younger and submissive to her. But you have to brace yourself to seeing the same dominance behaviour for a while; it is part and parcel of establishing a hierarchy, but it should die down eventually. Whether Angel is a sister or not doesn't matter - the sisters I have have for the most part been the most squabbly of my girls and very different in personality and size!

 

[Solspiggies]

My cage is 2x3 c&c, so that's approximately 70x105cms. With a 2x2 loft, 70x70cms. I'm going to extend the bottom to 2x4 in the next week or so, when my cubes arrive so that will make the bottom floor 140x70.
Angel does alow her to eat, they have separate water bottles, one hay bag upstairs and a hay tray downstairs. Veg and pellets are joined so maybe I'll separate them. But my concern is not whether she is eating or nor, it's more of living with the enemy, I imagined them to be close buddies, not live separate lives. Why have a companion if you rather be far away from them?
As for finding another suitable companion, wouldn't an older, wiser, calmer pig help Rosie get some knowledge and confidence? Wouldn't another youngling be scared and skittish and weary?

 

[Wiebke]

My cage is 2x3 c&c, so that's approximately 70x105cms. With a 2x2 loft, 70x70cms. I'm going to extend the bottom to 2x4 in the next week or so, when my cubes arrive so that will make the bottom floor 140x70.
Angel does alow her to eat, they have separate water bottles, one hay bag upstairs and a hay tray downstairs. Veg and pellets are joined so maybe I'll separate them. But my concern is not whether she is eating or nor, it's more of living with the enemy, I imagined them to be close buddies, not live separate lives. Why have a companion if you rather be far away from them?
As for finding another suitable companion, wouldn't an older, wiser, calmer pig help Rosie get some knowledge and confidence? Wouldn't another youngling be scared and skittish and weary?

I would see first how they are behaving with a grid division, but so the can still see each other. That will give you the answer whether Rosie is feeling bullied and stressed or not. Only if she is much happier when alone and does NOT want to be back with Angel would I think of other solutions.
Whether a motherly older piggy or a submissive younger companion works out best is up to Rosie. Guinea pigs have a way to surprise you who they take to. Ideally it would be down to Rosie who she wants to live with. I don't think that neutered boars are common in Spain at all?

 

[Solspiggies]

Thank you every one!
OK so today I separated them for a few hours, left Angel in the cage and put Rosie iin a temporary cage set up. I watched them and noticed that Rosie iis calling and looking for Angel, pacing up and down, looking everywhere for her.
Angel on the other hand was quite happy to be alone, no calling, no needing, just calm and happy to be there alone.
I think tomorrow iill reverse the set up. Leave Rosie in the cage and remove angel into the temporary cage, see if she calks out.
I'm not sure if roisie was calling for angel or calling to go home....
Had Some floor time today for the 1st time, it was calm and the were curious, not terrified!
I think its all too much too soon to know, I think I'll persist with angel, get to know her, she's more agressivce and standoffish but maybe they will set boundaries.

 

[Wiebke]

Thank you every one!
OK so today I separated them for a few hours, left Angel in the cage and put Rosie iin a temporary cage set up. I watched them and noticed that Rosie iis calling and looking for Angel, pacing up and down, looking everywhere for her.
Angel on the other hand was quite happy to be alone, no calling, no needing, just calm and happy to be there alone.
I think tomorrow iill reverse the set up. Leave Rosie in the cage and remove angel into the temporary cage, see if she calks out.
I'm not sure if roisie was calling for angel or calling to go home....
Had Some floor time today for the 1st time, it was calm and the were curious, not terrified!
I think its all too much too soon to know, I think I'll persist with angel, get to know her, she's more agressivce and standoffish but maybe they will set boundaries.

It looks like Rosie needs Angel more than Angel needs Rosie; but dominant piggies are often more self-reliant. There is however no question that Rosie is NOT feeling bullied, so their bond is functional.

 

[Solspiggies]

Good to hear, ii was worried. I think I'm going tyo just let them sort it out.
I also weighed them and they both put on near 40grms each this week,so Rosie must be getting enough food. Maybe its just play? Or marking territory?

Is a dominant companion a good companion?

 

[Wiebke]

Good to hear, ii was worried. I think I'm going tyo just let them sort it out.
I also weighed them and they both put on near 40grms each this week,so Rosie must be getting enough food. Maybe its just play? Or marking territory?

Is a dominant companion a good companion?

A dominant companion can still become a good friend and caring protector over time once Angel has settled in herself, her new position and new home - over the top dominance is most often a covering up of insecurity.

But it was important to check that Rosie is happy and well in herself and with Angel being very dominant.

I don;t think you have anything to worry about.