Separating one sow from herd of six sows?

[Fluffbabies]

Hi all,

I've read all the guides but looking for advice again. We have 11 sows now comprising of a herd of six, a pair and a trio.

In March we added two new younger sows to our group of four (now 3 year old) sows. We had the four since they were babies when they joined our last two now passed elderly sows from our first herd. The two new sows are Rapunzel and Izzy. Both were rescues. Izzy (now 1.5 years old) I rescued directly and Rapunzel (thought to be around 2-2.5 years old) came from a local rescue. They were bonded with the four at the same time by the rescue and have all got on very well until a couple of months ago.

Cookie (second in charge) started taking a dislike to Izzy. Cookie was very fond of Izzy at the start and even defended her during the bonding against top pig (and Cookie's then bestie) Effie's dominance. Nothing has changed in circumstances or the cage, Cookie's health is fine and she is absolutely fine to all the others.

90% of the time she is fine with Izzy. They eat together sometimes but Izzy tends to move out of her way. Not in an urgent way but Izzy is bottom pig and quite small and Cookie is second from the top and the biggest. Izzy is somewhat of an outsider and a little cautious of the others but accepted by the herd. She does not like being out of the cage and always tries hard to get back in there whenever held. Cookie can get a bit funny over food so we have always had at least two or three big piles of hay, three water bottles each on different sides of the cage, three nugget bowls, and no hides or corners anyone can get stuck in. Cage is a 3x6 C&C.

It started with Cookie moving Izzy out of her way more often or chattering her teeth and getting in her face. Izzy used to back down but then they started squaring up to each other and chattering until Cookie would do a gentle "lunge" (no teeth or open mouth) or "fake bite/nose shove" to get Izzy to go away. Then it escalated to Cookie chasing Izzy to the other side of the cage instead of just pushing her, becoming more frequent and for no apparent reason.

I've been keeping a close eye on things but now we've had a couple of instances when Cookie kept chasing Izzy around the cage not just from one side to the other. One occasion of which resulted in Izzy taking refuge in a log tunnel making weird noises I haven't heard from a pig before. Almost like complaining noises but quieter and almost like she was hurt. Almost like a dog whimpering. She was also a bit hunched/looking sorry for herself/making weird flinch or twitch movements. She snapped out of it when I went to her and I checked her over thoroughly and couldn't find a mark on her. That was a few days or a week ago.

This evening, Cookie was going after Izzy, and chased her around the cage. Before I could get up I saw Cookie had some of Izzy's fur in her mouth. When I get to the cage Cookie had paused chattering in a tunnel but was about to go after her again. I blocked her way with a pee pad and added fresh hay piles into the cage which distracted her and all the others. Izzy was sitting frozen, a bit haunched, with her head tilted, making the twitching movements. I talked to her and she snapped out of it (almost like she was in shock?) I picked her up and checked her over, can't find any bite mark or obvious area where the fur came from. Izzy was straining to get back into the cage as normal so after a short time had passed I put her back in and they've been fine. The whole herd is eating. Apart from getting Izzy to move out of a tunnel she wants to go in, Cookie's okay with her again and Izzy is not avoiding her.

My concern is that it's not frequent at the moment but it's still escalating, becoming more frequent and I guess the next escalation would be blood drawn or a fight and Izzy might get very hurt if I am not around to break it up. Other than these episodes with Cookie, Izzy seems happy in the group and the others all get on very well and have stable relationships with each other. We can't see a way to divide the herd into two without disrupting the original four, and Rapunzel and Effie are very close.

If I needed to separate Izzy, there isn't a pig or pigs that I would separate with her if that makes sense. But I'd be concerned how she would be being separated from them all and going through a different bonding. Although she's bottom pig I expect it would result in the remaining herd redoing their hierarchy, which could cause problems with them.

The pair we have are very young and very close so I wouldn't want to disrupt them.

The trio live upstairs so I don't have eyes them as much but the top pig Pip bullies the bottom pig Bubble at times, usually at frequent intervals during the night by laying next to her in a corner or "blocking" her in a hide that she can't be blocked in but she doesn't move, just freezes and squeals until I go in and move Pip away from her. Bubble hasn't lost any weight or access to food/water but is a bit more shy since. The trio have been together a long time so I'm not sure about possibly bonding Izzy with Bubble and making two pairs or trying to bond Izzy with the trio. Maybe Izzy would do best being bonded with a completely new piggy from a rescue and making another pair but not ideal for us going up to 12 and four cages as we may be facing a very unexpected loss in income soon.

Just wanted to pick the brains of the more experienced so I know what to do if the time comes that Cookie and Izzy can't keep living together. Thanks in advance I know it's long.

 

[piggieminder]

I am replying to bump your post up. I am sorry I have no experience of sows so can't answer your questions.

 

[Viennese Furbabies]

Adult sows in larger groups can be tricky but I don't have much experience with sow-only-groups either because I usually keep a group with a neutered boar plus sows.
I have had two fall outs between bonded sows and both times I seperated them. But the situation wasn't comparable with yours.

The movements and sounds you witnessed are linked to inner group aggression between sows. Sometimes it can be a once off argument but if seen more often I would take it seriously.

If you have two girls who are not happy in their group, you could try a bonding between those two but the bullying could go on.
Same sex groups can work better with even numbers and I personally wouldn't go for groups with more than four sows but I know that larger groups can work. And like everything else with piggies ... the individual likes and dislikes mean more than any rules defined by humans.

Have you noticed any other differences in Cookie's behaviour? Is she just acting aggressively towards Izzy?
I'm asking because her more aggressive behaviour could be a sign that somethings not all right with her. Ovarian cysts can lead to more aggressive behaviour as well as pain or other hormonal imbalances.

 

[Fluffbabies]

Thank you for your reply. I know our situation is very specific and there are so many variables it can be hard to advise.

We haven’t seen any other changes with Cookie. She is quite a big soppy pig underneath. She pancakes when you pick her up and can gets as nuzzled into you as she can during cuddles and she licks her cage mates’ eyes and ears.

No signs of pain, cysts or being unwell. I’ve had several sows with cysts and arthritis now so I always have those in the back of my mind.

Effie actually has ovarian cysts and she had started bothering the others a lot before we got Rapunzel and Izzy to the point the vet told us to give each day a traffic light colour and if it got to the point her behaviour was negatively affecting the herd on the majority of the days we’d need to consider surgery or come up with a plan. Funnily enough in an unexpected turn of events, for some reason, Rapunzel and Izzy joining the herd really settled her and she’s really calm. As mentioned she’s very soppy and attached to Rapunzel. We joke it’s quite one sided as Rapunzel is a free pig but Effie always looks for her and lays down next to her. We had thought maybe making the group larger would stress her as top pig and considered getting a neutered boar if we needed to but it worked out well.

I’d suggest that Effie getting really close to Cookie maybe affected her because Cookie and Effie were close before but that’s been the case for a long time now before she started going for Izzy.

Izzy challenged things a bit in the herd as she was 9 months when we got her but they quickly put her back in her place.

Nothing’s happened today, I’ve increased the size of the hay piles even more as it’s cold even though they’re inside, added more enrichment, more forage and moved things around which has been a good distraction. I would struggle to make the cage much bigger but will try and see if that helps to resettle things.

If it comes to it and I need to separate I think I’d first try bonding Izzy with Bubble and maybe having their cage next to Pip and Squeak’s so Bubble can still see them. See how that works out. I guess there’s a few different things we could try if we need to before adding an 12th pig.

Interesting what you say about even numbers being better. I guess it may help to prevent an outsider. My experience is there’s a pig that’s a distinct bottom pig perhaps more of an outsider in the even herds of 6 I’ve had. I think we’ve been lucky with the trios and herds of 6 we’ve had. Each group is a separate circumstance though and it changes with each passing or adding of a member.

One things for sure I couldn’t see putting all three groups together in a group of 11! They’re all such different dynamics and personalities… I couldn’t see it going well in the slightest. It would be absolute chaos!

 

[Viennese Furbabies]

No, I wouldn't advice you to join the groups either. Your top sows wouldn't like that at all.
Keeping sows can be tricky but it can also work beautifully. Most of the times the pickering is harmless. But it's good that you're observing the changes in dynamics. It's quite a bit like a soap opera.