Recurring pneumonia (formerly heart issues/disease) piggies

[ceciliaxdee]

Hi all, having the worst luck with my herd and after a fungal infection, two now have respiratory issues. One had pneumonia back in late January, confirmed fluid in lungs with X-rays and then another X-ray when she was better didn’t show an enlarged heart but the vets were suspicious of heart issues and she responded very well to furosemide (diuretic).

Since she’s had a few episodes of clicky breathing on and off, and also I had noticed in last few weeks increased movement on sides when breathing and slight head nodding. Her lungs sounded fine last few recent vet visits however I took her in for a fungal check up and the vet picked up that her breathing was strained (no crackling though) just a lot of respiratory effort taken and she’s back on Septrin for a URI.

She’s also got fatty pea eye which developed as she got older (she’s now nearly 4). It was really bad when this latest episode started. Not sure if linked!

She started to deteriorate with heavy side breathing and effort at night so I put her back on the furosemide and took her back next day and saw a different vet who said she could hear an arrhythmia and we decided to trial heart meds along with keep her on the furosemide. They’ve got her on a dose of pimobendan (vetmedin) 3.5mg/ml concentration at 0.06ml twice a day.

I think the next step may be to do an echo when she’s more stable, but poor thing is breathing so heavy. We’ve got her on Septrin to treat the URI, and then furosemide and also the pimobendan. If it’s not an enlarged heart, does anyone have any experiences of other heart issues and how they diagnosed/treatment and managed quality of life?
I’m a bit worried about whether the heart meds are needed or it’s just a bad URI but my other piggie who has a URI also is breathing, doesn’t have the heavy respiratory effort with side movement and has more energy than her.

I’ve also started nebulising her and my other piggie.

Some videos of custard’s breathing today: Video_1.MOV

Video_3.mov

Video_1.mov

 

[Wiebke]

Hi

I am very sorry that you are having such a rough ride.

Heart medication is not my personal forte; so far, none of my piggies that presented with several potential heart symptoms has ever reacted to heart meds. The response to heart medication is usually pretty quick if there is a heart problem or there is no response at all.

Usually your vet will prescribe a diuretic like furosemide. Frusol is a liquid form of furosemide for easier application than tablets that is often used in the UK by exotics vets. Additionally, they may also prescribe metoclopramide for the gut if they feel like there could be some gassing as well (depending on where the fluid is building up). Fluid tends to either build up in the lungs, in the chest or body cavity but usually not in the lungs and the chest at the same time.

Fortekor (benazepril) is an ACE inhibitor that is often the first step; vetmedin (active ingredient: pimobendan) would be the next step up in terms of heart meds when fortekor is not strong enough.

Try nebulising sessions with a mild antiseptic like saline, hibiscrub or a very weak solution of F10 with the permission of your vet if they feel that this may help with the clicky breathing, which is usually the sign of a possible fluid build up in the lungs.
Other members with practical experience can hopefully help you in that respect.

 

[Free Ranger]

Hi, my 4 year old girl Flora has just gone through this very thing although of course it may have a different cause. The important bit is that Flora is just finishing her course of Septrin for the URI and she is also on Frusol, twice a day, 0.3ml of 40mg/5 ml each time. This is about 2.4mg each dose, and she's just under 1.1kilo.

Flora had an ultrasound scan on her heart/lungs a week ago and the vet could see a small amount of fluid build-up. However she couldn't see any heart issues - no enlarged chambers or anything. It just looked normal to them. Even after careful listening with the stethoscope the vet could only hear a very quiet wheeze. I'd taken her in because her breathing was faster than usual at about 90 BrPM and she had a subtle 'head-bob' with each breath, but there was no noise. When she emerged from her tunnel (which wasn't often) you could see her sides heave like your girl. We tried just the Frusol at first which seemed to slow the BrPM but we still had the head-bob and the heaving... and at this point her breathing slowed to about 65 but it looked 'too' slow and she was clearly struggling. Her eyes were very wide and staring you could see the whites. But once we started the Septrin too she started to improve properly within 24-28hours, so there was definitely an infection. I actually tried dropping the Frusol for a day after she was improving but she was clearly worse without it, so then we reintroduced it and she's much better. Her breathing is much calmer and stays about 75BrPM at rest: no head-bob and gently moving sides. We may tweak the frusol, I'm also considering Furosemide tablets as an alternative if she doesn't settle on it, it has 10% ethanol in the solution it seems so it's going to be like a gobful of wine and she's not actually keen on it so I have to catch her (Flora is pretty cooperative generally and will just take her Septrin while she's standing there).

Flora had been spayed within the past month (v large ovarian cysts) and developed a URI straight after so was put on a short course of antibiotics then - but we felt there was something else going on as she'd gone down so fast after her op. There had been several instances of loud breathing over the preceding months: either 'clicking' or honking, or just strained gasping sounds, but each time it was just between a few seconds and a few minutes so we struggled to catch it on camera. Her other behaviour seemed normal and the vet could hear nothing with her lungs. But it looks like this has been brewing for a while. Another poster has a 'heart' piggy who has stayed on her diuretic but also has a heart medication called benazepet and this has stabilised her condition and helped her to regain weight - she's doing OK now. My girl used to be heavier but her ovaries were massive so I'm not sure how much weight she 'should' have lost with the spay, if you see what I mean. Right now she's maintaining OK in that she doesn't need syringing but she's not eating hay like she was. It may be her heart in the end, or it may turn out to be a mass somewhere (vet says this can also happen).

So whatever Flora's underlying issue it's causing this accumulation of fluid and that seems to be making her more prone to lung infections which will need to be caught as they happen. Hopefully by controlling the fluid and keeping a course of AB in reserve for quick treatment she will continue to manage until if/when things take a turn for the worse. I'm keeping an open mind as to the cause being heart, a growth, or something else. If 2 of your girls have the same thing but it's affecting Custard worse it does seem to indicate an underlying problem with her breathing / heart too.

How long had she been on antibiotics? They should take a day or two to start helping with symptoms - you can use your other girl as a measure of improvement. And what is her dose of furosemide?

 

[Pound Shilling & Pig]

Hi, my piggy Pom Pom has a heart condition, diagnosed nearly two years ago and is the pig @Free Ranger makes a reference to above.
Her only symptom was unexplained, steady weight loss. She had no sign of respiratory effort. On exam at the vets her lungs sounded clear but an x-ray revealed them to contain fluid. My vet thought the most likely cause would be heart related so started her on furosimide, which worked quickly at clearing the fluid, confirming his suspicion. So she was then put onto benazapet (ACE inhibitor) aswell. She has remained on both drugs ever since, has regained a good amount of weight and is doing really well and leading a normal life.
Fluid buildup due to a heart condition will usually respond quickly to diuretics (such as furosemide) but they manage the issue rather than cure it so so they are used as a long term/permanent medication. Diuretics can also be used short term to help with the treatment of pneumonia but antibiotics are also required to treat the infection and once the infection is gone neither medication will be required.
As said above it seems that a build up of fluid in the lungs (due to a heart condition) may increase vulnerability to lung infections.
Fatty eye is a genetic condition and unlikely to be related.

 

[ceciliaxdee]

Hi all, thank you for sharing your experiences! Custard was rushed to the emergency vets and has spent the last two nights in ICU in an oxygen box.

It turns out the other exotic vet clinic we went to (we couldn’t get in at our usual exotic vet as they were booked out) has misdiagnosed the heart problem as she wasn’t getting better with the heart meds and to be honest kind of seemed worst, her gut started playing up and poos weren’t looking good. They kept telling us to give it more time but my partner who is registered nurse for humans came home and listened to her and said she really didn’t look great. I got her into emergency at the usual animal hospital we go to (which has the most amazing experienced cavvy savvy exotic vet) and thankfully our usual exotic vet managed to pop into the emergency area and also have a look along with the emergency vet.
They both did an ultrasound of her chest and saw what looks to be a pneumonia infection in her lungs, they both couldn’t hear anything wrong with her heart, so they think any heart symptoms is just secondary to the lung infection (which is common). She had pneumonia back in January so it looks like it has come back. It cleared back then on 2-3 weeks of Septrin and furosemide with some supportive oxygen at the vets.
Poor baby, she is now on baytril and doxycycline and furosemide. They’ve been nebulising her too. She started doing better since they took her off the vetmedin/pimobendan and her gut returned to normal.
They said she’s eating on her own now, her energy levels and poo are looking good. Breathing was the same yesterday but they said it was expected as the antibiotics will take some time and also she could be on a 6 week course or so. Last update this morning I have is that her breathing has improved in oxygen so they are weaning her off today and seeing if she is stable off it to go home.

I have another at home with a URI (Evie) but she is a lot more stable and it hasn’t progressed to lower respiratory. I wonder if it’s the same bacteria causing both their respiratory issues. My other piggies who all live together with them indoors have never had any respiratory symptoms at all (3-4 years old).

I also had another piggie pass away last year around this winter time from respiratory symptoms (suspected pneumonia) so I wonder if there is some bacteria that most are immune to/fighting off but a few are becoming susceptible as they get older and get tipped over by something.

Please keep Custard in your thoughts, she’s a fighter and has beat pneumonia once before.

 

[ceciliaxdee]

Hi, my 4 year old girl Flora has just gone through this very thing although of course it may have a different cause. The important bit is that Flora is just finishing her course of Septrin for the URI and she is also on Frusol, twice a day, 0.3ml of 40mg/5 ml each time. This is about 2.4mg each dose, and she's just under 1.1kilo.

Flora had an ultrasound scan on her heart/lungs a week ago and the vet could see a small amount of fluid build-up. However she couldn't see any heart issues - no enlarged chambers or anything. It just looked normal to them. Even after careful listening with the stethoscope the vet could only hear a very quiet wheeze. I'd taken her in because her breathing was faster than usual at about 90 BrPM and she had a subtle 'head-bob' with each breath, but there was no noise. When she emerged from her tunnel (which wasn't often) you could see her sides heave like your girl. We tried just the Frusol at first which seemed to slow the BrPM but we still had the head-bob and the heaving... and at this point her breathing slowed to about 65 but it looked 'too' slow and she was clearly struggling. Her eyes were very wide and staring you could see the whites. But once we started the Septrin too she started to improve properly within 24-28hours, so there was definitely an infection. I actually tried dropping the Frusol for a day after she was improving but she was clearly worse without it, so then we reintroduced it and she's much better. Her breathing is much calmer and stays about 75BrPM at rest: no head-bob and gently moving sides. We may tweak the frusol, I'm also considering Furosemide tablets as an alternative if she doesn't settle on it, it has 10% ethanol in the solution it seems so it's going to be like a gobful of wine and she's not actually keen on it so I have to catch her (Flora is pretty cooperative generally and will just take her Septrin while she's standing there).

Flora had been spayed within the past month (v large ovarian cysts) and developed a URI straight after so was put on a short course of antibiotics then - but we felt there was something else going on as she'd gone down so fast after her op. There had been several instances of loud breathing over the preceding months: either 'clicking' or honking, or just strained gasping sounds, but each time it was just between a few seconds and a few minutes so we struggled to catch it on camera. Her other behaviour seemed normal and the vet could hear nothing with her lungs. But it looks like this has been brewing for a while. Another poster has a 'heart' piggy who has stayed on her diuretic but also has a heart medication called benazepet and this has stabilised her condition and helped her to regain weight - she's doing OK now. My girl used to be heavier but her ovaries were massive so I'm not sure how much weight she 'should' have lost with the spay, if you see what I mean. Right now she's maintaining OK in that she doesn't need syringing but she's not eating hay like she was. It may be her heart in the end, or it may turn out to be a mass somewhere (vet says this can also happen).

So whatever Flora's underlying issue it's causing this accumulation of fluid and that seems to be making her more prone to lung infections which will need to be caught as they happen. Hopefully by controlling the fluid and keeping a course of AB in reserve for quick treatment she will continue to manage until if/when things take a turn for the worse. I'm keeping an open mind as to the cause being heart, a growth, or something else. If 2 of your girls have the same thing but it's affecting Custard worse it does seem to indicate an underlying problem with her breathing / heart too.

How long had she been on antibiotics? They should take a day or two to start helping with symptoms - you can use your other girl as a measure of improvement. And what is her dose of furosemide?

Thank you for sharing your experience! Custard is similar to your Flora. She’s just under 4, and last time she had the fluid in lungs, once that cleared, they redid the X-ray and there was no enlarged heart. However the on and off clicky upper respiratory breathing had come and go over the last month or so but we had been in and out of the vets for fungal issues and her lungs were fine, until suddenly this week they didn’t sound great anymore. But it was more just strained and then dull…no fluid sound or crackling like the pneumonia she had back in January. She was looking fine to until suddenly that night she went puffy, to her corner hide and didn’t come out much and I could see side breathing and head nodding (which were the behaviours she did in January when she had pneumonia). Something is tipping her over to having lung infections though hopefully the different antibiotics of baytril and doxycycline help, the exotic vet that had prescribed this is quite experienced.

She had been on the Septrin for 2.5 days when she went into emergency and they changed it to baytril and doxy as the infection looked pretty severe on the ultrasound they told me. Today would be her second day on the new antibiotics (about 4 doses now).

She is on a 10mg/ml concentration of furosemide. Was 0.2ml up to 3 times a day but they’re now doing twice a day. She’s around 1060g.

 

[ceciliaxdee]

Hi, my piggy Pom Pom has a heart condition, diagnosed nearly two years ago and is the pig @Free Ranger makes a reference to above.
Her only symptom was unexplained, steady weight loss. She had no sign of respiratory effort. On exam at the vets her lungs sounded clear but an x-ray revealed them to contain fluid. My vet thought the most likely cause would be heart related so started her on furosimide, which worked quickly at clearing the fluid, confirming his suspicion. So she was then put onto benazapet (ACE inhibitor) aswell. She has remained on both drugs ever since, has regained a good amount of weight and is doing really well and leading a normal life.
Fluid buildup due to a heart condition will usually respond quickly to diuretics (such as furosemide) but they manage the issue rather than cure it so so they are used as a long term/permanent medication. Diuretics can also be used short term to help with the treatment of pneumonia but antibiotics are also required to treat the infection and once the infection is gone neither medication will be required.
As said above it seems that a build up of fluid in the lungs (due to a heart condition) may increase vulnerability to lung infections.
Fatty eye is a genetic condition and unlikely to be related.

Thank you - I did read about the weight loss! Custard lost weight in January when she had the pneumonia but since she got better the weight has remained pretty steady. And even now it’s returned and her weight hasn’t dropped this time. Furosemide did work very well the last time. Once she’s better the vet suggested we could do an echocardiogram to check the heart but the main issue right now is definitely a lung infection from what they saw on the ultrasound

 

[Wiebke]

Hi all, thank you for sharing your experiences! Custard was rushed to the emergency vets and has spent the last two nights in ICU in an oxygen box.

It turns out the other exotic vet clinic we went to (we couldn’t get in at our usual exotic vet as they were booked out) has misdiagnosed the heart problem as she wasn’t getting better with the heart meds and to be honest kind of seemed worst, her gut started playing up and poos weren’t looking good. They kept telling us to give it more time but my partner who is registered nurse for humans came home and listened to her and said she really didn’t look great. I got her into emergency at the usual animal hospital we go to (which has the most amazing experienced cavvy savvy exotic vet) and thankfully our usual exotic vet managed to pop into the emergency area and also have a look along with the emergency vet.
They both did an ultrasound of her chest and saw what looks to be a pneumonia infection in her lungs, they both couldn’t hear anything wrong with her heart, so they think any heart symptoms is just secondary to the lung infection (which is common). She had pneumonia back in January so it looks like it has come back. It cleared back then on 2-3 weeks of Septrin and furosemide with some supportive oxygen at the vets.
Poor baby, she is now on baytril and doxycycline and furosemide. They’ve been nebulising her too. She started doing better since they took her off the vetmedin/pimobendan and her gut returned to normal.
They said she’s eating on her own now, her energy levels and poo are looking good. Breathing was the same yesterday but they said it was expected as the antibiotics will take some time and also she could be on a 6 week course or so. Last update this morning I have is that her breathing has improved in oxygen so they are weaning her off today and seeing if she is stable off it to go home.

I have another at home with a URI (Evie) but she is a lot more stable and it hasn’t progressed to lower respiratory. I wonder if it’s the same bacteria causing both their respiratory issues. My other piggies who all live together with them indoors have never had any respiratory symptoms at all (3-4 years old).

I also had another piggie pass away last year around this winter time from respiratory symptoms (suspected pneumonia) so I wonder if there is some bacteria that most are immune to/fighting off but a few are becoming susceptible as they get older and get tipped over by something.

Please keep Custard in your thoughts, she’s a fighter and has beat pneumonia once before.

HUGS and fingers very firmly crossed!

A weakened immune system can play a role in combination with weather extremes to allow any underlying issues to come to the fore again or to get a foot in. If you have something floating around that is normally kept under control by a fully working immune system, then that can come up in situations like these. Ringworm is another opportunist.

I always dread hot summers/sudden heat spikes here in the UK because they do the same thing with my own oldies/frailer piggies despite my best efforts.
And it is perhaps no surprise that I lost two older piggies unexpectedly within a day of each other after a week of unusually cold weather with 5 heavy night frosts (-8 C in a city) and freezing days. Several other piggies did show minor symptoms of issues but got over them on their own within a couple of days. Even though the indoors temperature never feel much below 20 C and all my oldies had snugglesafes and a thick fleece between them and the big window to prevent cold drafts...

Just hang on in there. You are doing your very best - and that is all you can and should ever do. We would all love to be superwoman but we aren't.

 

[ceciliaxdee]

HUGS and fingers very firmly crossed!

A weakened immune system can play a role in combination with weather extremes to allow any underlying issues to come to the fore again or to get a foot in. If you have something floating around that is normally kept under control by a fully working immune system, then that can come up in situations like these. Ringworm is another opportunist.

I always dread hot summers/sudden heat spikes here in the UK because they do the same thing with my own oldies/frailer piggies despite my best efforts.
And it is perhaps no surprise that I lost two older piggies unexpectedly within a day of each other after a week of unusually cold weather with 5 heavy night frosts (-8 C in a city) and freezing days. Several other piggies did show minor symptoms of issues but got over them on their own within a couple of days. Even though the indoors temperature never feel much below 20 C and all my oldies had snugglesafes and a thick fleece between them and the big window to prevent cold drafts...

Just hang on in there. You are doing your very best - and that is all you can and should ever do. We would all love to be superwoman but we aren't.

Thank you, feeling pretty exhausted and nervous everyday as I wait for updates. She was doing well last night though and almost could go home but they still thought she needed more time on oxygen and the antibiotics more time to work. Today she’s still doing great eating pooping and good energy in the oxygen box but every time they take her out of oxygen they said her breathing gets heavy again. Tomorrow an exotic vet is in and the original emergency vet who admitted her so hopefully they can check her progress and see whether she is improving enough to come home. I know when she had pneumonia last time, the breathing was off for nearly a week after treatment started.

They’ve pretty much told me that if I had an oxygen box she could go home but I don’t so I’m not sure what this means going forward, hoping the exotic vet will have more insight.

Yes these respiratory issues were after our coldest week of winter even though they’re indoors with the heater on low! I'm now blasting the heater in their room so they have a constant temperature.

 

[Wiebke]

Thank you, feeling pretty exhausted and nervous everyday as I wait for updates. She was doing well last night though and almost could go home but they still thought she needed more time on oxygen and the antibiotics more time to work. Today she’s still doing great eating pooping and good energy in the oxygen box but every time they take her out of oxygen they said her breathing gets heavy again. Tomorrow an exotic vet is in and the original emergency vet who admitted her so hopefully they can check her progress and see whether she is improving enough to come home. I know when she had pneumonia last time, the breathing was off for nearly a week after treatment started.

They’ve pretty much told me that if I had an oxygen box she could go home but I don’t so I’m not sure what this means going forward, hoping the exotic vet will have more insight.

Yes these respiratory issues were after our coldest week of winter even though they’re indoors with the heater on low! I'm now blasting the heater in their room so they have a constant temperature.

I hope that another member with practical experience can show you how to make a nebuliser.I've been lucky to never had any respiratory illness in my piggies since nebulising has come in.
In a pinch, a half hour session in a steamed up shower cubicle with the piggy on a towel can serve as an emergency bridging measure.

PS: I wonder whether you may want to discuss the value of a nebulising session with an F10 dilute for all your piggies (you would need antiseptic strength not the stronger disinfectant solution; it's the same product, just in different strengths)? We never come across ringworm in the respiratory system before but F10 has tested for killing ringworm spores. Just a thought - and perhaps an explanation why the respiratory bug has blown up so badly.

 

[ceciliaxdee]

I hope that another member with practical experience can show you how to make a nebuliser.I've been lucky to never had any respiratory illness in my piggies since nebulising has come in.
In a pinch, a half hour session in a steamed up shower cubicle with the piggy on a towel can serve as an emergency bridging measure.

PS: I wonder whether you may want to discuss the value of a nebulising session with an F10 dilute for all your piggies (you would need antiseptic strength not the stronger disinfectant solution; it's the same product, just in different strengths)? We never come across ringworm in the respiratory system before but F10 has tested for killing ringworm spores. Just a thought - and perhaps an explanation why the respiratory bug has blown up so badly.

I am nebulising my other pig Evie with the URI (the one in my other thread that showed fungal spores when my vet tested the clear nose discharge! But it’s more likely she prob rubbed some up there). I have a friend who is a vet nurse that showed me how to nebulise but she just used a pet carrier and covers with a towel and has a portable handheld nebuliser that uses batteries which she pops in. So I’ve been doing the same set up!
My vet said to try it and use just saline.
Evie gets a runny nose after the nebulising and sounds more clicky but I’ve been told this is because the mucous is clearing out - I hope so!

Custard with the pneumonia is in the ICU at the vet still and they are nebulising her also I think just with saline. They report that her appetite and poops and energy are great (including stable weight) but every time they take her off oxygen, laboured breathing starts again after a few hours. In my experience with her last bout, it did take a week or so till breathing stabilised at home and she had maybe 16 hrs of oxygen over two day vet visits and then can home for treatment but they’re not exotic vets so they are recommending she stay in and on oxygen. They said she is definitely improving.
An experienced piggie exotic vet is in tomorrow so I’m hoping they will have more about whether she can come home. I’ll ask about the f10 nebulisation also!

Also I probably should rename this thread to pneumonia round two - I wonder if that’s possible?

 

[ceciliaxdee]

I am nebulising my other pig Evie with the URI (the one in my other thread that showed fungal spores when my vet tested the clear nose discharge! But it’s more likely she prob rubbed some up there). I have a friend who is a vet nurse that showed me how to nebulise but she just used a pet carrier and covers with a towel and has a portable handheld nebuliser that uses batteries which she pops in. So I’ve been doing the same set up!
My vet said to try it and use just saline.
Evie gets a runny nose after the nebulising and sounds more clicky but I’ve been told this is because the mucous is clearing out - I hope so!

Custard with the pneumonia is in the ICU at the vet still and they are nebulising her also I think just with saline. They report that her appetite and poops and energy are great (including stable weight) but every time they take her off oxygen, laboured breathing starts again after a few hours. In my experience with her last bout, it did take a week or so till breathing stabilised at home and she had maybe 16 hrs of oxygen over two day vet visits and then can home for treatment but they’re not exotic vets so they are recommending she stay in and on oxygen. They said she is definitely improving.
An experienced piggie exotic vet is in tomorrow so I’m hoping they will have more about whether she can come home. I’ll ask about the f10 nebulisation also!

Also I probably should rename this thread to pneumonia round two - I wonder if that’s possible?

Realised I’ve repeated myself a bit here - exhaustion! Have been obsessively researching pneumonia pigs and outcomes so that I can have a good discussion about the prognosis tomorrow. I know Custard and she’s a strong one but it’s so worrying that it’s her second time with pneumonia in the same year. Sigh, I miss her heaps and I hope she’s doing okay on her own at the vet. The good thing is she is in her own decent sized oxygen cage and right in front of the vets office at the hospital. And they close to the public overnight and there’s 1 vet and 1 nurse giving 24/7 care to all the animals so she’s getting the best care. Attached is a photo I took from Saturday when I visited.

 

[Wiebke]

I am nebulising my other pig Evie with the URI (the one in my other thread that showed fungal spores when my vet tested the clear nose discharge! But it’s more likely she prob rubbed some up there). I have a friend who is a vet nurse that showed me how to nebulise but she just used a pet carrier and covers with a towel and has a portable handheld nebuliser that uses batteries which she pops in. So I’ve been doing the same set up!
My vet said to try it and use just saline.
Evie gets a runny nose after the nebulising and sounds more clicky but I’ve been told this is because the mucous is clearing out - I hope so!

Custard with the pneumonia is in the ICU at the vet still and they are nebulising her also I think just with saline. They report that her appetite and poops and energy are great (including stable weight) but every time they take her off oxygen, laboured breathing starts again after a few hours. In my experience with her last bout, it did take a week or so till breathing stabilised at home and she had maybe 16 hrs of oxygen over two day vet visits and then can home for treatment but they’re not exotic vets so they are recommending she stay in and on oxygen. They said she is definitely improving.
An experienced piggie exotic vet is in tomorrow so I’m hoping they will have more about whether she can come home. I’ll ask about the f10 nebulisation also!

Also I probably should rename this thread to pneumonia round two - I wonder if that’s possible?

I have adjusted the title for you. All the best for poorly Custard.

 

[ceciliaxdee]

I have adjusted the title for you. All the best for poorly Custard.

The latest update is the vet has done X-rays and she is suspicious of lymphoma if anyone has advice for this it would be great. She said the amount of fluid is unusual for any bacterial infection, she is currently trying to drain more fluid to take another X-ray to rule out heart disease but given custard did not feel better right away on the vetmedin, it probably isn’t heart.

 

[Wiebke]

The latest update is the vet has done X-rays and she is suspicious of lymphoma if anyone has advice for this it would be great. She said the amount of fluid is unusual for any bacterial infection, she is currently trying to drain more fluid to take another X-ray to rule out heart disease but given custard did not feel better right away on the vetmedin, it probably isn’t heart.

BIG HUGS

I am very sorry for the really bad news. It depends very much on how aggressive and advanced any lymphoma is and how frail the affected piggy is for how long it takes with lymphoma- days, weeks or, at the best best but rarest, months. It is not curable.

Steroids and very strong painkillers can be used in terminal conditions like lymphoma; they can bolster the progress but you will have to decide how much you ultimately want to put your poorly girl through and where you draw the line. Underlying lymphoma can majorly scupper the healing process of any other disease, which may explain quite a bit. Lymphoma is progressive and comes with the extra burden that the full weight of deciding when to draw the line falls on you. That decision is unfortunately usually not taken out of your hands by circumstances, as in other illnesses.

I would recommend that you have an honest, upfront talk with your vet about the realistic prospects and quality of life.
Please be aware that your grieving process starts the moment you realise that somebody you love is not going to recover or has a terminal illness, not with the moment of death. The shock of the bad news corresponds with the shock of finding a piggy has passed unexpectedly or is going downhill very quickly, only that with a terminal illness the shock and the loss are usually separated in time. Be kind with yourself right now. It is the second worst bit apart from the death itself and it is perfectly normal to be very upset and in turmoil.

Anyway, I am never happy having to link in this guide (the most difficult I have ever written) into a post but I sincerely hope that it may help you make any decisions with a clearer mind if not with an easier heart and help you make the best of any remaining time so you can at least minimise some aspects of your own grieving process for yourself by knowing that you have done the best for your girl.
A Practical and Sensitive Guide to Dying, Terminal Illness and Euthanasia in Guinea Pigs

 

[ceciliaxdee]

Custard has lymphoma, the vet was able to get more fluid out and saw cancer cells when she analysed and some other cells confirming cancer. She has said we can start her on steroids and the best case scenario she’s ever seen is a piggie lived to a year after diagnosis. We’ll know more based on how she responds to the steroids.
I’m in shock, she doesn’t have any swollen lymph nodes and her only symptom is the respiratory distress and fluid in lungs. She was breathing a lot better tonight when I came past to visit and was bright and eating. I don’t want her to suffer so I hope she responds to meds and we can keep her comfortable for some more time until we have to make the call. I’m devastated.

 

[ceciliaxdee]

BIG HUGS

I am very sorry for the really bad news. It depends very much on how aggressive and advanced any lymphoma is and how frail the affected piggy is for how long it takes with lymphoma- days, weeks or, at the best best but rarest, months. It is not curable.

Steroids and very strong painkillers can be used in terminal conditions like lymphoma; they can bolster the progress but you will have to decide how much you ultimately want to put your poorly girl through and where you draw the line. Underlying lymphoma can majorly scupper the healing process of any other disease, which may explain quite a bit. Lymphoma is progressive and comes with the extra burden that the full weight of deciding when to draw the line falls on you. That decision is unfortunately usually not taken out of your hands by circumstances, as in other illnesses.

I would recommend that you have an honest, upfront talk with your vet about the realistic prospects and quality of life.
Please be aware that your grieving process starts the moment you realise that somebody you love is not going to recover or has a terminal illness, not with the moment of death. The shock of the bad news corresponds with the shock of finding a piggy has passed unexpectedly or is going downhill very quickly, only that with a terminal illness the shock and the loss are usually separated in time. Be kind with yourself right now. It is the second worst bit apart from the death itself and it is perfectly normal to be very upset and in turmoil.

Anyway, I am never happy having to link in this guide (the most difficult I have ever written) into a post but I sincerely hope that it may help you make any decisions with a clearer mind if not with an easier heart and help you make the best of any remaining time so you can at least minimise some aspects of your own grieving process for yourself by knowing that you have done the best for your girl.
A Practical and Sensitive Guide to Dying, Terminal Illness and Euthanasia in Guinea Pigs

I think if she recovers and manages to come home, I will make the call when she stops eating on her own or if she becomes in respiratory distress again. The vet is recommending to try treatment as she has seen piggies do well but again it depends on each pig. I really don’t want her to suffer so I will see how she is tomorrow (she was bright tonight! But they need her to stay in oxygen while they try and get the fluid down more) as I am bringing in my other piggie with the URI for check up. Thank you for all your support, it’s been a rough few months and I’m really feeling it. I’ll have a read through the guide.

 

[Bertie & Jelly]

So sorry to hear Custard’s diagnosis. I had a piggie with lymphoma and opted for steroids. He also had critical care, oats and a few more treats than normal. Make memories, take photos, spend time with your gorgeous Custard, cry lots if you need to. Thinking of you and Custard x

 

[Wiebke]

I think if she recovers and manages to come home, I will make the call when she stops eating on her own or if she becomes in respiratory distress again. The vet is recommending to try treatment as she has seen piggies do well but again it depends on each pig. I really don’t want her to suffer so I will see how she is tomorrow (she was bright tonight! But they need her to stay in oxygen while they try and get the fluid down more) as I am bringing in my other piggie with the URI for check up. Thank you for all your support, it’s been a rough few months and I’m really feeling it. I’ll have a read through the guide.

Every case is different as the factors in play differ. It is an illness that you have to play along with. What helps is to define the criteria with your vet as to how far you want to take her in order to minimise the agonising somewhat when you come close to it.

Make the best of what time remains but allow yourself to grieve. There is no fairness to it but then there never is. Sometimes you feel it just a lot sharper. You've been through such a lot this year with your piggies. You do not have to be strong the whole time.

 

[ceciliaxdee]

So sorry to hear Custard’s diagnosis. I had a piggie with lymphoma and opted for steroids. He also had critical care, oats and a few more treats than normal. Make memories, take photos, spend time with your gorgeous Custard, cry lots if you need to. Thinking of you and Custard x

Thank you. I am opting for steroids, vet mentioned she could look into options for radiotherapy/chemo but I declined as I would like quality of life over quantity and I feel that would be very stressful for Custard. How did your piggie go and how long did you have? Would love any advice to know when it’s time if you have any from your experience or what to expect.

 

[ceciliaxdee]

Every case is different as the factors in play differ. It is an illness that you have to play along with. What helps is to define the criteria with your vet as to how far you want to take her in order to minimise your own agonising somewhat when you come close to it, which is usually the trickiest and most anxiousl time.

Make the best of what time remains but allow yourself to grieve. There is no fairness to it but then there never is. Sometimes you feel it just a lot sharper. You've been through such a lot this year with your piggies. You do not have to be strong the whole time.

Yes I will have a chat to them more tomorrow. It is so unfair, she doesn’t deserve to go through this. Thank you Yes I keep going between okay and processing to bursting into tears again tonight. I just hope I do the right thing by her when the time comes.

 

[Wiebke]

Yes I will have a chat to them more tomorrow. It is so unfair, she doesn’t deserve to go through this. Thank you Yes I keep going between okay and processing to bursting into tears again tonight. I just hope I do the right thing by her when the time comes.

All the best. Be kind with yourself and give yourself space and time to not be OK when you aren't. There is only so m,uch you can take and deal with at once. You have the right instincts and they will come through. Trust me!

The Dying Guide link in my earlier post has a whole chapter devoted to the practical aspects of when the right time comes and what is in play; we get a lot of questions about that. You may find reading it helpful for making the decision that is right for both you and your girl according to what is really important for you because that way you will have an easier ride afterwards and can be surer that you have got it right for yourself.

It is not all only bad; there are ways in which you can make the most of what little or more leeway you have to play with. That precious extra time is the most amazing gift if you can make use of it and fill it with meaning.

 

[Bertie & Jelly]

Thank you. I am opting for steroids, vet mentioned she could look into options for radiotherapy/chemo but I declined as I would like quality of life over quantity and I feel that would be very stressful for Custard. How did your piggie go and how long did you have? Would love any advice to know when it’s time if you have any from your experience or what to expect.

He tolerated the steroid well. He was on a reducing dose of Prednisolone for 2 months although his first lump actually appeared about 4 months before and was surgically removed. So I had about 6 months with him from diagnosis. I opted for steroids when the next lumps appeared. He was still active but in much shorter bursts - a quick run around the cage, a bit of bar biting, chatter to let me know he was still there - then back in his hidey. I kept a big pile of hay next to it so he didn’t have to venture far. I weighed him daily and he lost about 80g over the 2 months although they can put on weight with steroids. When he stopped taking critical care from his bowl I felt it might be time but I can’t honestly say that I was prepared. I have a photo of him chattering and bar biting on top of his hidey in the morning but he deteriorated suddenly and I helped him across the bridge in the afternoon. All I can really say is to focus on loving your Custard and try not to think in terms of whether tomorrow or the next day might be her last day. Thinking of you x

 

[ceciliaxdee]

All the best. Be kind with yourself and give yourself space and time to not be OK when you aren't. There is only so m,uch you can take and deal with at once. You have the right instincts and they will come through. Trust me!

The Dying Guide link in my earlier post has a whole chapter devoted to the practical aspects of when the right time comes and what is in play; we get a lot of questions about that. You may find reading it helpful for making the decision that is right for both you and your girl according to what is really important for you because that way you will have an easier ride afterwards and can be surer that you have got it right for yourself.

It is not all only bad; there are ways in which you can make the most of what little or more leeway you have to play with. That precious extra time is the most amazing gift if you can make use of it and fill it with meaning.

Thank you I had a read last night but only processed part of it so will need to reread again once the news has settled in, they’ve managed to get the fluid build up down with furosemide and she’s doing well this morning still so they have started the Prednisolone and hopefully she can come home today. Yes I hope she can come home even if the time is limited to have some more good days and be spoilt with veggies and cuddles.

 

[ceciliaxdee]

He tolerated the steroid well. He was on a reducing dose of Prednisolone for 2 months although his first lump actually appeared about 4 months before and was surgically removed. So I had about 6 months with him from diagnosis. I opted for steroids when the next lumps appeared. He was still active but in much shorter bursts - a quick run around the cage, a bit of bar biting, chatter to let me know he was still there - then back in his hidey. I kept a big pile of hay next to it so he didn’t have to venture far. I weighed him daily and he lost about 80g over the 2 months although they can put on weight with steroids. When he stopped taking critical care from his bowl I felt it might be time but I can’t honestly say that I was prepared. I have a photo of him chattering and bar biting on top of his hidey in the morning but he deteriorated suddenly and I helped him across the bridge in the afternoon. All I can really say is to focus on loving your Custard and try not to think in terms of whether tomorrow or the next day might be her last day. Thinking of you x

Thank you for sharing your experience and I’m sorry about your beautiful boy Custard will be on Prednisolone also. I will shower her with love and enjoy any time we have left together.

 

[ceciliaxdee]

Custard has been home for over 24 hours and doing well considering. I’m so thankful we were able to bring her home comfortable and she is able to spend more time with the rest of the herd and be so spoiled. She came running out last night and this morning wheeking loudly for her veggies. She’s been getting all her favourite pellets, veggies and hay.

Do any of you know at what point do we introduce pain killers? I forgot to ask the vet and am not due to come back till another 7-10 days if she is doing well. She mentioned I can give tramadol but that Custard isn’t in any pain currently.

 

[Free Ranger]

I have no experience of lymphoma specifically but if a piggy is in pain they will eat less and hide away as a rule so you get an idea that something is wrong. Right now she sounds delighted to be back at home. Is tramadol your first line painkiller? We usually get metacam/loxicom as our first painkiller or anti-inflammatory here in the UK but perhaps lymphoma is different. I'm sorry for your diagnosis but in a way happy for you that you know what is going on and have a plan... it's an awful situation when they are struggling and we have no idea how to help them x

 

[Bertie & Jelly]

My little chap was prescribed Metacam. The vet said Tramadol was an option if he needed stronger pain relief. To be honest it was hard to tell if he was in pain or not as he was still active so I never opted for Tramadol. Sorry, I wish I could be more helpful x

 

[ceciliaxdee]

I have no experience of lymphoma specifically but if a piggy is in pain they will eat less and hide away as a rule so you get an idea that something is wrong. Right now she sounds delighted to be back at home. Is tramadol your first line painkiller? We usually get metacam/loxicom as our first painkiller or anti-inflammatory here in the UK but perhaps lymphoma is different. I'm sorry for your diagnosis but in a way happy for you that you know what is going on and have a plan... it's an awful situation when they are struggling and we have no idea how to help them x

Yes thankfully it’s been over a week and she’s still super delighted and bright and eating. Pretty much normal except we know her diagnosis
Our exotic vet ended up reaching out to me to follow up and she said no pain meds needed as we still have heaps of room to go up with steroids and diuretics to manage if needed first. Unfortunately meloxicam can’t be given with the steroid so she’d have to use tramadol or other if ever needed. Yes I wish there was something I could do to take away her lymphoma x

 

[ceciliaxdee]

My little chap was prescribed Metacam. The vet said Tramadol was an option if he needed stronger pain relief. To be honest it was hard to tell if he was in pain or not as he was still active so I never opted for Tramadol. Sorry, I wish I could be more helpful x

Thank you x
Was he on Prednisolone also? Our vet won’t give both at the same time and when custard was in hospital and pre lymphoma she was getting metacam as they were trying to treat for pneumonia first, once they diagnosed lymphoma through sample of the fluid and X-rays, she insisted on waiting till next day for the metacam to be cleared out of the system before she would start the steroid.