Problem Introducing New Sow

[Littlefoot]

We have had our Guinea Pig Biscuit for around 4 years and after reading lots of information about guinea pigs being lonely we decided to introduce a younger one around 4 months old.

They were in separate cages for a while and then we tried to slowly introduce them, in a neutral space. On the first introduction, things seemed to be going well. Every time we have tried to bond them since, Biscuit has stood still and teeth chattering. Sandy will bite her and chase her around. Biscuit will not do anything to stop this.

After a few days break, I've just tried again in a neutral area and put some food down for them. Sandy started eating the food and Biscuit stood still in the corner, after a while Sandy went for Biscuit again, always trying to bite her. At this point I have removed them, should I leave them longer or are they just not going to get on.

They are living in a C&C cage with a partition, but ideally, I would like them to share the cage. Any advice will be welcomed.

 

[sport_billy]

Was there any blood drawn? Sounds like you did everything right on neutral ground. Did you have two of everything? Nothing with old smells on? Am going to tag in @Wiebke she hasn't been around today but should be on tomorrow hopefully. Her advice is always good as she bonds such a lot of piggies. In the meantime hopefully one of our other members may hopefully pop along and advise, so keep an eye on this thread

 

[sport_billy]

This is worth a read Illustrated Bonding Behaviours And Dynamics

 

[Littlefoot]

This is worth a read Illustrated Bonding Behaviours And Dynamics

I read through this at the weekend, there is some great information there and really useful. This was one of the reasons for joining this forum.

 

[sport_billy]

cool, threads can get a little lost but I will try and keep this bumped up so we can hopefully get some ideas and help for you and the piggies. It's never easy is it. I know it is disheartening....

 

[Littlefoot]

Was there any blood drawn? Sounds like you did everything right on neutral ground. Did you have two of everything? Nothing with old smells on? Am going to tag in @Wiebke she hasn't been around today but should be on tomorrow hopefully. Her advice is always good as she bonds such a lot of piggies. In the meantime hopefully one of our other members may hopefully pop along and advise, so keep an eye on this thread

Thanks for your reply. There has been no blood drawn, only a mouthful of fur. My concern is the fact that the older one is just standing still and teeth chattering, or running fast when being bitten. We have 2 of everything, all was new so very neutral. The last few introductions have been done in the hall, so neither Guinea Pig has been in there before.

 

[sport_billy]

Thanks for your reply. There has been no blood drawn, only a mouthful of fur. My concern is the fact that the older one is just standing still and teeth chattering, or running fast when being bitten. We have 2 of everything, all was new so very neutral. The last few introductions have been done in the hall, so neither Guinea Pig has been in there before.

Sounds tricky hoping Wiebke may be able to think of something.

 

[Swissgreys]

I agree with @sport_billy
I also got some fantastic advice from Wiebke, and read the thread listed above at least 10 times!

Like you we introduced a young sow to our group (1 male, 2 females) and expected it to be straightforward.
The initial signs were great - the older pigs were grooming and being very sweet with the 'baby', and within 30 minutes the whole things descended into a lunging, teeth chattering, puffed up fur, pile of mayhem.
It was awful, and in all honesty I felt physically ill watching such huge displays of 'aggression'.
However I also realised that unless blood was being drawn (it wasn't, although mouthful's of fur were), they were just sorting things out in their own way, and they were going to do it on their time scale and in their language, not mine.

Plus in between the awfulness, all of them were wandering around, eating the odd mouthful of hay, etc. This told me they weren't overly distressed (I was!), and that no one pig was being singled out and prevented from taking a break from the dominance rituals.

In all it took about 7 hours, and after that time only the dominant sow was occasionally charging at the baby to remind her who was in charge.
The baby was squealing and running away to show her acceptance of her submissive status.
At this point I transferred all of them back to the C&C.
I would say it took around 4 days for everyone to settle fully, and during this time we didn't take them out or handle them at all.
However I did scatter copious piles of fresh food and hay around the cage multiple times a day as a distraction, and to ensure everyone was getting a chance to feed.

Now everyone is settled, happy and bonded, and the addition of Oreo has been a wonderful thing for our small group of pigs.
So don't loose heart - it can take a while, and it doesn't always look very nice, but as long as no one is being physically hurt, or prevented from eating, sleeping and drinking, then chances are they will eventually work things out.

 

[Littlefoot]

I agree with @sport_billy
I also got some fantastic advice from Wiebke, and read the thread listed above at least 10 times!

Like you we introduced a young sow to our group (1 male, 2 females) and expected it to be straightforward.
The initial signs were great - the older pigs were grooming and being very sweet with the 'baby', and within 30 minutes the whole things descended into a lunging, teeth chattering, puffed up fur, pile of mayhem.
It was awful, and in all honesty I felt physically ill watching such huge displays of 'aggression'.
However I also realised that unless blood was being drawn (it wasn't, although mouthful's of fur were), they were just sorting things out in their own way, and they were going to do it on their time scale and in their language, not mine.

Plus in between the awfulness, all of them were wandering around, eating the odd mouthful of hay, etc. This told me they weren't overly distressed (I was!), and that no one pig was being singled out and prevented from taking a break from the dominance rituals.

In all it took about 7 hours, and after that time only the dominant sow was occasionally charging at the baby to remind her who was in charge.
The baby was squealing and running away to show her acceptance of her submissive status.
At this point I transferred all of them back to the C&C.
I would say it took around 4 days for everyone to settle fully, and during this time we didn't take them out or handle them at all.
However I did scatter copious piles of fresh food and hay around the cage multiple times a day as a distraction, and to ensure everyone was getting a chance to feed.

Now everyone is settled, happy and bonded, and the addition of Oreo has been a wonderful thing for our small group of pigs.
So don't loose heart - it can take a while, and it doesn't always look very nice, but as long as no one is being physically hurt, or prevented from eating, sleeping and drinking, then chances are they will eventually work things out.

Thanks for taking your time to reply.

My concern is the fact that the older sow, Biscuit is not doing any of the normal things, even with food down she just sat scared in the corner, normally she will eat it straight away. If this is normal behaviour then I will just have to leave them together for longer and hope she stands her ground a bit more. At the moment she is showing no interest at all.

 

[Wiebke]

We have had our Guinea Pig Biscuit for around 4 years and after reading lots of information about guinea pigs being lonely we decided to introduce a younger one around 4 months old.

They were in separate cages for a while and then we tried to slowly introduce them, in a neutral space. On the first introduction, things seemed to be going well. Every time we have tried to bond them since, Biscuit has stood still and teeth chattering. Sandy will bite her and chase her around. Biscuit will not do anything to stop this.

After a few days break, I've just tried again in a neutral area and put some food down for them. Sandy started eating the food and Biscuit stood still in the corner, after a while Sandy went for Biscuit again, always trying to bite her. At this point I have removed them, should I leave them longer or are they just not going to get on.

They are living in a C&C cage with a partition, but ideally, I would like them to share the cage. Any advice will be welcomed.

Biting means that blood is drawn; nipping is a normal and carefully judged gesture of dominance where the dominant piggy just lets the other feel the teeth, but without real hurt or without breaking the skin.

However, I don't think that the bond is working or ever going to work. Biscuit is definitely not liking her companion; she is obviously not able to stand up for herself, so Sandy has taken over in the absence of Biscuit claiming the top spot for herself. Once piggies make up their mind that they don't like each other, they usually won't change their mind - and certainly not in the short term; and piggies have got pretty good memories!
Sadly no trick in the book can create a friendship where there is no basis for one.

Illustrated Bonding Behaviours And Dynamics
Sow Behaviour

 

[VickiA]

Bonding can be tricky I'm afraid. Is the biting more of a gentle nipping or is it a lunging biting and is the skin being broken? Nipping is all part of the female hierarchy and bonding. However it's usually the older piggy who acts this way rather than the younger. To be brutally honest I doubt whether this will work as it sounds like Biscuit doesn't like the younger upstart of a piggy. The fact she stands there chattering her teeth is an indication to me that she is not at all happy.
Not all sows like each other. And once they have decided they don't like each other it can be handbags at dawn.

 

[Swissgreys]

How long is Biscuit sitting in the corner for?

Obviously if she doesn't move or eat or drink for hours then you are right to be concerned, and separate the girls.
But what I think I have learnt is that sometimes it takes them a while to sort things out.
Maybe Biscuit is just waiting to see what happens?

Our dominant sow Ruby was initially quite 'aggressive' with Oreo. She really seemed to be pushing her hard, to assert her dominant position.
It didn't help that Oreo didn't back down right away, but even after she had, Ruby still kept bossing her around for no reason (to my untrained, non guinea pig eyes).
Once Ruby was happy that Oreo had submitted, then they moved on to the next phase - relationship building.

But before they could move forward they really, really needed to clarify where everyone stood in the hierarchy, and this took a long time.

Depending on how long they have been left together, I would suggest just giving them more time to really make it clear where everyone stands.
If biscuit has been on her own for a long time, and Sandy is still a baby it might take a while, because they both need to start speaking the same language first.
Sandy is new at this, and Biscuit is out of practice.
Hopefully if they are given lots of time and space they can eventually work it out, and start to enjoy each others company.

 

[Littlefoot]

Biting means that blood is drawn; nipping is a normal and carefully judged gesture of dominance where the dominant piggy just lets the other feel the teeth, but without real hurt or without breaking the skin.

However, I don't think that the bond is working or ever going to work. Biscuit is definitely not liking her companion; she is obviously not able to stand up for herself, so Sandy has taken over in the absence of Biscuit claiming the top spot for herself. Once piggies make up their mind that they don't like each other, they usually won't change their mind - and certainly not in the short term; and piggies have got pretty good memories!
Sadly no trick in the book can create a friendship where there is no basis for one.

Illustrated Bonding Behaviours And Dynamics
Sow Behaviour

Thank you for your reply. I did wonder if this might be the case and they will not get on. Sandy is definitely taking top spot and it is not fair on Biscuit to keep trying at the moment. We will keep them in the cage with the separation panels in place and see if things change between them, but I'm not holding out much hope. At the moment both seem happy with the setup.

 

[Littlefoot]

How long is Biscuit sitting in the corner for?

Obviously if she doesn't move or eat or drink for hours then you are right to be concerned, and separate the girls.
But what I think I have learnt is that sometimes it takes them a while to sort things out.
Maybe Biscuit is just waiting to see what happens?

Our dominant sow Ruby was initially quite 'aggressive' with Oreo. She really seemed to be pushing her hard, to assert her dominant position.
It didn't help that Oreo didn't back down right away, but even after she had, Ruby still kept bossing her around for no reason (to my untrained, non guinea pig eyes).
Once Ruby was happy that Oreo had submitted, then they moved on to the next phase - relationship building.

But before they could move forward they really, really needed to clarify where everyone stood in the hierarchy, and this took a long time.

Depending on how long they have been left together, I would suggest just giving them more time to really make it clear where everyone stands.
If biscuit has been on her own for a long time, and Sandy is still a baby it might take a while, because they both need to start speaking the same language first.
Sandy is new at this, and Biscuit is out of practice.
Hopefully if they are given lots of time and space they can eventually work it out, and start to enjoy each others company.

Thanks for the reply. They only need to be together for a few seconds and biscuit doesn't move and very quickly Sandy will just nip her and keep going for her. Biscuit is not doing any of the normal behaviour that I have read about otherwise I would leave them together for longer, she is just terrified.

We will continue to keep them side by side and give them time.

 

[Littlefoot]

Bonding can be tricky I'm afraid. Is the biting more of a gentle nipping or is it a lunging biting and is the skin being broken? Nipping is all part of the female hierarchy and bonding. However it's usually the older piggy who acts this way rather than the younger. To be brutally honest I doubt whether this will work as it sounds like Biscuit doesn't like the younger upstart of a piggy. The fact she stands there chattering her teeth is an indication to me that she is not at all happy.
Not all sows like each other. And once they have decided they don't like each other it can be handbags at dawn.

No skin is broken as yet, but I think it is only time before there will be. I would have expected Biscuit to go for Sandy and then sort themselves out. We will leave them living side by side and see how they go over time.