Possible Bladder Sludge Advice Needed?

[Bella123]

I woke up this morning and whilst I was cleaning the piggys cage,

I saw this white substance on the fleece.



I'm assuming it's bladder sludge, and I'm very concerned.

I'm not sure who it is at this stage so I have separated Fifi and Flash for a short time until I can find out.

I have a vet appointment tommorow which isn't related to this, however will speak for advice from the vet.

However diet wise they already have filtered water and a moderate to low calcium diet.

They have oxbow timothy hay and orchard grass as a treat.

I also soak their veg in water when preparing

I am going to cut out corriander now and basil and am going to feed the following.

Red /Orange bell pepper 1/6 once a week.

Green / yellow bell pepper 1/6 5 days a week

Red and green leaf lettuce (1 to two leaf depending on size) everyday.

1 Baby carrot 3 times a week.

1 Cherry tomato 3 times a week

They are currently having versele laga cavia complete as pellets.

I have done research into the pellets and was going to buy the bunny ones or jr farm grain free ones?,

but I've seen their not to popular with guinea pigs. So I chose the next best thing to the ones they were having before the transfer.

Oxbow were their given before the versele.

The only thing I don't like about versele laga pellets is the calcium is 0.8.

And it also doesn't tell you what type of calcium contained in them.

I would prefer bunny or j r farm ones for low calcium.

Because of the possible bladder sludge I have reduced their pellets from 33g to 23g.

Ideally I would like them off pellets because of this bladder sludge for a pellet free diet but is this absolutely neccessary?

What are the pros and cons to pelletless, and can it actually be done without nutitional deficiencies?

I would like some information and advice on how to best deal with bladder sludge.

These are the first two guinea pigs I've owned so I am very new to bladder sludge issues. Any advice on the sort of questions I need to ask the vet tommow would be helpful also

Many thanks x

 

[Tiamolly123]

• I think that is calcium, someone will confirm it or not soon

 

[Bella123]

I also feed cucumber 1 inch slice 3 times a week.

 

[Bella123]

• I think that is calcium, someone will confirm itor not soon

Thanks x

 

[rome_italy]

I am far from being an expert, but I tell you what I know and what I was told by the vet, when I brought home Calliope, a young sow who had that similar wee at the rescue and was in pain when being touched on her belly. The sow came home with an alert from the vet and I had a great and interesting talk with the best cavy savvy vet here, a researcher who said what I am repeating now.
A diet too low in calcium seems to be responsible of certain sludge and stones. Stones in guineas are not always caused by a too high amount of calcium, but on the imbalance calcium-phosphorus. Little calcium and too high phosphorus will build a stone sooner or later. Moreover the amount of calcium being filtered by the kidneys is always the same and the body take the calcium from the bone if necessary. Calcium is necessary for the bones, teeth and nervous system/heart/and so on. Kidneys filter the blood not the food and into the blood stream there is always the same amount of calcium. The excess is not good, but the balance is important. Peppers, tomatoes and baby carrots (and most of the other vegs) are not well balanced (you can find the chart of the food on Guinea Lynx). Theis ratio is about 0.2:1 and the right balance of a diet should always be 1.5:1, that is MORE calcium THAN phosphorus and not the opposite. You can adjust this ratio just adding for example some dandelion, rich of calcium or something else...
Then another subject: the piggies (and the cats) who don't eat dried food almost never develop troubles in their kidneys/bladder. Coincidence? I don't think so. Anyway 30-40g of pellets are really too much, considering that the suggested quantity (not from the firm of course, but from the international guide lines) is 5g, never more.
The best food with the best ratio of minerals is fresh grass (and hay).
What I did at home: I immediately cut off pellets and I started feeding my piggies with huge amount of fresh grass and max 100g veg a day. Calliope started feeling fine but the white residual (similar to talcum) was still present. I started weighing the vegs, being extremely careful to the ratio (Guinea Lynx website has an online calculator) and the residual calcium went away.
Consider that my piggies don't drink any water and I am able to give them 5ml a day of water (if they agree) only by syringe... I add some drops of cranberry juice which they seem to like.
I also use Complete Versele Laga, but only as a treat... 5-6 pieces a day... it looks as a quite good "food", no flour, no cereals, no sugar...but actually it would be only a rubbish if it weren't added with vitamins and minerals, the ones my piggies get from the good grass and the vegs. Vit C? into pellets kept in contact with the air and with such temperature? I prefer using Cebion drops. At least the exact amount of vit C in any single drop is guaranteed.
My advise for you is using the calculator, that definitely made the difference in Calliope's wee. If you don't solve the problem, you can search for other solutions...
I think you got only an alert, nothing serious. But don't be focussed only to the grams of calcium because now Calliope eats a lot of calcium (wild chicory and dandelion leaves and also the summer grass we now have, are quite rich of calcium). But I care of the balance and I see that the wee is clear in both piggies. Maybe Calliope will develop some desease in the future, but at least I can say it will not depend on the diet.

 

[Bella123]

I am far from being an expert, but I tell you what I know and what I was told by the vet, when I brought home Calliope, a young sow who had that similar wee at the rescue and was in pain when being touched on her belly. The sow came home with an alert from the vet and I had a great and interesting talk with the best cavy savvy vet here, a researcher who said what I am repeating now.
A diet too low in calcium seems to be responsible of certain sludge and stones. Stones in guineas are not always caused by a too high amount of calcium, but on the imbalance calcium-phosphorus. Little calcium and too high phosphorus will build a stone sooner or later. Moreover the amount of calcium being filtered by the kidneys is always the same and the body take the calcium from the bone if necessary. Calcium is necessary for the bones, teeth and nervous system/heart/and so on. Kidneys filter the blood not the food and into the blood stream there is always the same amount of calcium. The excess is not good, but the balance is important. Peppers, tomatoes and baby carrots (and most of the other vegs) are not well balanced (you can find the chart of the food on Guinea Lynx). Theis ratio is about 0.2:1 and the right balance of a diet should always be 1.5:1, that is MORE calcium THAN phosphorus and not the opposite. You can adjust this ratio just adding for example some dandelion, rich of calcium or something else...
Then another subject: the piggies (and the cats) who don't eat dried food almost never develop troubles in their kidneys/bladder. Coincidence? I don't think so. Anyway 30-40g of pellets are really too much, considering that the suggested quantity (not from the firm of course, but from the international guide lines) is 5g, never more.
The best food with the best ratio of minerals is fresh grass (and hay).
What I did at home: I immediately cut off pellets and I started feeding my piggies with huge amount of fresh grass and max 100g veg a day. Calliope started feeling fine but the white residual (similar to talcum) was still present. I started weighing the vegs, being extremely careful to the ratio (Guinea Lynx website has an online calculator) and the residual calcium went away.
Consider that my piggies don't drink any water and I am able to give them 5ml a day of water (if they agree) only by syringe... I add some drops of cranberry juice which they seem to like.
I also use Complete Versele Laga, but only as a treat... 5-6 pieces a day... it looks as a quite good "food", no flour, no cereals, no sugar...but actually it would be only a rubbish if it weren't added with vitamins and minerals, the ones my piggies get from the good grass and the vegs. Vit C? into pellets kept in contact with the air and with such temperature? I prefer using Cebion drops. At least the exact amount of vit C in any single drop is guaranteed.
My advise for you is using the calculator, that definitely made the difference in Calliope's wee. If you don't solve the problem, you can search for other solutions...
I think you got only an alert, nothing serious. But don't be focussed only to the grams of calcium because now Calliope eats a lot of calcium (wild chicory and dandelion leaves and also the summer grass we now have, are quite rich of calcium). But I care of the balance and I see that the wee is clear in both piggies. Maybe Calliope will develop some desease in the future, but at least I can say it will not depend on the diet.

Thanks that was very helpful to me!

 

[rome_italy]

Thanks that was very helpful to me!

of course, once you have learnt hoe the plate should be, you will not need the scales... at the beginning I wasted a bit of time, adding a leaf, removing another leave! then I learnt... Anyway, don't exaggerate and keep the calcium and minerals low in the plate and of course consider the amout of the day, not the single meal.
(If you will reduce the pellets, you might notice that your piggies drink less or nothing... it is scary, I know... my piggies don't drink at all... I don't like it, but two vets have told me it does not matter...)

 

[Wiebke]

I woke up this morning and whilst I was cleaning the piggys cage,

I saw this white substance on the fleece.

View attachment 65330

I'm assuming it's bladder sludge, and I'm very concerned.

I'm not sure who it is at this stage so I have separated Fifi and Flash for a short time until I can find out.

I have a vet appointment tommorow which isn't related to this, however will speak for advice from the vet.

However diet wise they already have filtered water and a moderate to low calcium diet.

They have oxbow timothy hay and orchard grass as a treat.

I also soak their veg in water when preparing

I am going to cut out corriander now and basil and am going to feed the following.

Red /Orange bell pepper 1/6 once a week.

Green / yellow bell pepper 1/6 5 days a week

Red and green leaf lettuce (1 to two leaf depending on size) everyday.

1 Baby carrot 3 times a week.

1 Cherry tomato 3 times a week

They are currently having versele laga cavia complete as pellets.

I have done research into the pellets and was going to buy the bunny ones or jr farm grain free ones?,

but I've seen their not to popular with guinea pigs. So I chose the next best thing to the ones they were having before the transfer.

Oxbow were their given before the versele.

The only thing I don't like about versele laga pellets is the calcium is 0.8.

And it also doesn't tell you what type of calcium contained in them.

I would prefer bunny or j r farm ones for low calcium.

Because of the possible bladder sludge I have reduced their pellets from 33g to 23g.

Ideally I would like them off pellets because of this bladder sludge for a pellet free diet but is this absolutely neccessary?

What are the pros and cons to pelletless, and can it actually be done without nutitional deficiencies?

I would like some information and advice on how to best deal with bladder sludge.

These are the first two guinea pigs I've owned so I am very new to bladder sludge issues. Any advice on the sort of questions I need to ask the vet tommow would be helpful also

Many thanks x

Take a DEEP breath!

This a totally harmless dried up calcium pee. Milky calcium pees are the natural way of guinea pigs to excrete excess calcium. These pees to a powdery white substance on surface of your bedding. If you cannot find any grit in a calcium pee, then there is no worries whatsoever.

Please also be aware that by going too low in calcium you can mess up the body and cause conversely more calcium pees instead of less. A good general diet with a moderate amount if calcium is best for long term health and enough to not cause stones or sludge unless factors ourside our control (genetic or disturbances in the complicated calcium absorption come into play in a small number of piggies).
By the way, here in Britain the worst calcium offender in a diet is one that most people overlook - water.
Recommendations For A Balanced General Guinea Pig Diet

 

[Bella123]

Take a DEEP breath!

This a totally harmless dried up calcium pee. Milky calcium pees are the natural way of guinea pigs to excrete excess calcium. These pees to a powdery white substance on surface of your bedding. If you cannot find any grit in a calcium pee, then there is no worries whatsoever.

Please also be aware that by going too low in calcium you can mess up the body and cause conversely more calcium pees instead of less. A good general diet with a moderate amount if calcium is best for long term health and enough to not cause stones or sludge unless factors ourside our control (genetic or disturbances in the complicated calcium absorption come into play in a small number of piggies).
By the way, here in Britain the worst calcium offender in a diet is one that most people overlook - water.
Recommendations For A Balanced General Guinea Pig Diet

Thanks Wiebke, I was very concerned as I've never seen this sort of deposit before. Usually they are very pale white. This morning there was just a lot of it concentrated in one area, it shook me a bit, but I think my mind has been put at ease, so thank you.

I'll try and include enough calcium also, I suppose when your worried you can cut out the most important things thinking it could be good, it's something I realised after of course they still need calcium but in a balanced and adequte amount.

 

[Wiebke]

Thanks Wiebke, I was very concerned as I've never seen this sort of deposit before. Usually they are very pale white. This morning there was just a lot of it concentrated in one area, it shook me a bit, but I think my mind has been put at ease, so thank you.

I'll try and include enough calcium also, I suppose when your worried you can cut out the most important things thinking it could be good, it's something I realised after of course they still need calcium but in a balanced and adequte amount.

Please follow the recommendations in our diet thread. Most long term owners have found their own preferred diet that generally evolves around the veg and herbs in our sample diet picture without being plagued by stone/sludge problems.

Also take into account that the weather is currently very hot where you are, so the food/water intake can change somewhat in the short term - and that shows in the poos and pees.

 

[Bella123]

Thanks for that additional info!