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Pneumonia

Teema

Teema

Junior Guinea Pig
Joined
Oct 17, 2018
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Location
Ayrshire
Hi everyone. Just looking for any reassurance or tips please. On Friday night (30th June) our boar Thomas (age 4ish) was making really strange wheezing noises, we took him straight to the vet who gave him a thorough check and said he has inflamed lungs and gave him a five day course of Baytril (0.3ml twice a day). We have also been giving him some probiotic.
Thomas declined over the weekend and we had to start syringe feeding him mashed up pellets and water, by Tuesday we have seen no improvement whatsoever and he just seems to be getting more and more lethargic, not himself at all, not interested in any food or water obviously or his cage mate Penny (we have ordered Oxbow Critical Care and it should arrive today). We took him back to the vet on Tuesday for an emergency appointment, she has extended his course of Baytril for another five days, same dose, and wants him on Metacam. She wanted us to give him 0.46ml Metacam last night and then once a day going forward 0.23ml. He had the strangest reaction to the Metacam, weak in the legs, flopping around, twisting his head, really bizarre. The vet was also able to give us a couple of sachets of critical care until ours arrives from Amazon today. He is really, really struggling with the syringe feeding, he really dislikes it and is often spitting a lot of back out. We are giving him as much as we can as often as we can and according to our vet’s advice. He has lost 90 grams in weight since Friday and the vet said his lungs don’t sound great (I do think there is an improvement in his breathing since Friday though, he isn’t as noisy). It is difficult to tell but I don’t think he has done the toilet, if he has it is tiny and hard pellets and I’ve only seen one or two.
This morning was even more of a struggle with the syringe feeding, it’s easy enough to get the syringe in etc but the problem is he isn’t swallowing it and spits it out, the vet advised one full sachet of the recovery food she gave us today, and I honestly cannot imagine how he is going to manage it all, he is struggling with 1 tiny syringe full. I noticed a tiny bit of discharge from his nose this morning.
We are just worried sick and doing everything we possibly can for him, including leaving a bowl of hot water next to his cage for some steam. I don’t know what else we can do we are exhausted and scared and we love him to pieces, just looking for a little help or guidance. Thanks.
 
I’m sorry to hear this.

It would be unusual to see such a reaction to metacam. It is very well tolerated by guinea pigs. Does your vet know?
Is it cat metacam he has been prescribed? You can obviously only do as your vet has prescribed but piggies need their painkillers twice a day. They metabolise them in around 12 hours so once a day isn’t enough. Pain meds are prescribed on a sliding scale of medical need but if that is cat metacam he has been prescribed then it is low dose.
If you don’t see improvement on the baytril, then stay in touch with your Vet. It can sometimes take a long course to deal with a respiratory issue but it may also require different antibiotics.

The need to breathe comes before the need to eat and as piggies cannot really breathe through their mouths, eating becomes difficult. It is literally a case of little and often with syringe feeding - the less that is taken in each sitting the more sittings will be needed. You are aiming for a minimum of 40-60ml of syringe feed per day (that is the survival minimum amount for a piggy who is not eating anything for themselves). But it is daily weight checks each morning which tell you whether you are getting enough syringe feed into him in the previous day. And you then adjust the syringe feeding according - if he loses weight the following morning then more syringe feed is needed.
Of course you still need to look after yourself, it can be exhausting looking after a poorly piggy so make sure you get some rest.

Was he doing better with the mushed pellets? Sometimes the familiar taste of pellets makes it a bit easier. Not all piggies like critical care. There is also another recovery feed called Emeraid (there are a few versions of it) which can be given.
If he stops swallowing anything at all, then please see the vet again urgently. Inability (rather than reluctance because they don’t like the taste) to swallow is unfortunately not good news.

He won’t be toileting if he isn’t eating enough. Poop output is 1-2 days behind food intake and because of that delay is it not reliable (only daily weight checks give you real time information on food intake no poop today means he hasn’t had enough food for the past 1-2 days, and consequently it’ll be 1-2 days after food intake increases before poop output increases.

All About Syringe Feeding and Medicating Guinea Pigs with Videos and Pictures
Probiotics, Recovery Foods And Vitamin C: Overview With Product Links
 
Thankyou so much for your reply.
It is cat metacam, the vet does not know as when we got home last night it was late and by the time he started showing these weird behaviours our surgery was closed, he hasn’t shown any of these symptoms this morning again and has had his 0.23ml dose this morning. He is a bit weak/floppy, I can’t say for certain if it’s the metacam or just how he is feeling. He did have a good look around when his wee friend Penny was squeaking though almost like he was searching for her so was good to see a bit of response from him whereas last night he was almost unresponsive (I genuinely thought he would pass away last night).
The first night we gave him his mashed pellets he was hungry and wanted more but then the next day he was not interested at all and was turning away/spitting out again. From further research, I doubt we have given him enough pellets on Sunday/Monday, and managed possibly a quarter of a sachet of recovery food last night (it is sachets of 20g made up with 90ml water). Hopefully can get a full sachet into him today and then maybe will start to see him do the toilet by tomorrow?
The vet said 1 sachet per kilogram and he is just over 1kg so she said the same thing as you, little and often but he needs an entire sachet. Really worried about gut stasis.
If no improvement by Friday the vet wanted to see him again and she said we may have to hospitalise him but equally the stress of this may be more detrimental (obviously if he gets even worse before Fri we will take him straight back). We are confident and have a lot of trust in our vets as they are small animal specialists and are always very thorough, I’m not sure why his metacam dose is so low? Could it be because of his weight? I do think it definitely showed some effect on him though but his behaviour was really strange, he didn’t seem in pain just floppy and struggling to co-ordinate his limbs.
Thankyou again for responding. I am aware that pneumonia is a leading cause of death, I’m hoping that because he’s made it through until Wednesday is a good sign. I also can’t tell if the probiotic is actually doing anything, conflicting information online but I suppose it can’t do any harm? Any recommendations regarding water as well? We have been syringe feeding him water but not sure how often/how much we should be doing this.
 
I would discuss his reaction with your vet. It’s an unusual thing to have happen if it is as a result of the metacam - it doesn’t mean to say there can’t be a reaction but it’s certainly not common nor something I’ve ever come across (I have had animals on it for short term illness (in higher doses than you have been given), for long term conditions and used dog metacam all of which in much higher twice a day doses).

Make sure you weigh him every day as that is the only way to know you are getting enough feed into him. Going by the packet directions alone doesn’t give real time information on the impact it is having on him.

What probiotic are you giving?
Are you ensuring you leave a 1-2 hours gap between an antibiotics dose and a probiotic dose.

You could also discuss whether nebulising may be an option.
 
Teema said:
Thankyou so much for your reply.
It is cat metacam, the vet does not know as when we got home last night it was late and by the time he started showing these weird behaviours our surgery was closed, he hasn’t shown any of these symptoms this morning again and has had his 0.23ml dose this morning. He is a bit weak/floppy, I can’t say for certain if it’s the metacam or just how he is feeling. He did have a good look around when his wee friend Penny was squeaking though almost like he was searching for her so was good to see a bit of response from him whereas last night he was almost unresponsive (I genuinely thought he would pass away last night).
The first night we gave him his mashed pellets he was hungry and wanted more but then the next day he was not interested at all and was turning away/spitting out again. From further research, I doubt we have given him enough pellets on Sunday/Monday, and managed possibly a quarter of a sachet of recovery food last night (it is sachets of 20g made up with 90ml water). Hopefully can get a full sachet into him today and then maybe will start to see him do the toilet by tomorrow?
The vet said 1 sachet per kilogram and he is just over 1kg so she said the same thing as you, little and often but he needs an entire sachet. Really worried about gut stasis.
If no improvement by Friday the vet wanted to see him again and she said we may have to hospitalise him but equally the stress of this may be more detrimental (obviously if he gets even worse before Fri we will take him straight back). We are confident and have a lot of trust in our vets as they are small animal specialists and are always very thorough, I’m not sure why his metacam dose is so low? Could it be because of his weight? I do think it definitely showed some effect on him though but his behaviour was really strange, he didn’t seem in pain just floppy and struggling to co-ordinate his limbs.
Thankyou again for responding. I am aware that pneumonia is a leading cause of death, I’m hoping that because he’s made it through until Wednesday is a good sign. I also can’t tell if the probiotic is actually doing anything, conflicting information online but I suppose it can’t do any harm? Any recommendations regarding water as well? We have been syringe feeding him water but not sure how often/how much we should be doing this.
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Hi

I am very sorry.

Please contact your vet clinic promptly whenever your piggy has an adverse reaction to any medication.

Metacam is generally extremely well tolerated (it is actually the best tolerated medication for guinea pigs), so a negative reaction to what is a still actually a rather low dose of it is very unusual. 1 kilo piggies can have up to 6 times more of what you have been prescribed as a one-off dose safely in a day with twice daily 0.4. ml of three times stronger dog metacam at the upper end of the prescription band with not overdosing.
 
Hi again everyone, thankyou for your replies.
Thomas has suddenly gotten worse again, we have managed to get another emergency vet appointment this morning and are about to leave to take him. I don’t think the Baytril is working, his chest sounds awful again, is there any other antibiotic anyone could suggest for pneumonia?
He is really struggling with the syringe feeding, we kept on and kept trying, little tiny bits of critical care, then mashed pellets, tried them thicker, more watery but he just isn’t managing, he was getting so exhausted that we decided late last night just to put him back to his bed, he looked terrible and felt it was unfair to keep forcing him, he has managed to keep some down. He did lick a piece of romaine lettuce as well but couldn’t chew it.
He is struggling to keep his head up now he is so lethargic, is there anything more I can ask the vet to do? I’m sure she will know best but I just want to mention every possible thing that could save him, I’m shocked (and relieved) he is still here this morning to be honest, hoping that means there is some fight in him. Will obviously mention the metacam issue as well. This is heartbreaking and I will do anything to make his passing easier and more comfortable or to save his life. Thankyou all again.
 
It does sound like he is struggling a bit so if I was in your position I would definitely ask your vet his thoughts on his QOL/prognosis and what other next steps are available for you. Hopefully this will help you understand better where you will go from here, and they will also let you know more about your anti-biotic options.

My thoughts are with you and sweet Thomas x
 
That’s really good of you thankyou for your advice.
Unfortunately we are just back from the vet and she said the kindest thing to do was get him put to sleep. We tried everything we could.
 
thankyou ever so much, he was truly one of a kind💖
 
I am very sorry for your loss.

I can tell how loved he was until the very end. Be kind to yourself x
 
Teema said:
That’s really good of you thankyou for your advice.
Unfortunately we are just back from the vet and she said the kindest thing to do was get him put to sleep. We tried everything we could.
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BIG HUGS

It rather sounds like you have either come up against a resistant bacterial bug or one of the (rare but nastier) other bugs that can cause pneumonia, like pneumococcus or streptococcus etc. and that can cause a very fast decline. Not your or your vet's fault. Lab tests would have taken too long to be relevant for finding an antibiotic that would work in your case as the new meds would have also needed time to build up and start working. Antibiotics are no instantly hitting meds.
Pneumonia can be a killer disease even when you do everything right - sometimes in a matter of hours. We tend to forget that when the chips are down, guinea pigs are ultimately small animals with a very fast metabolism which turns against them in these situations when everything happens too fast at the sharp end. :(

Please be kind with yourself. Intense anger or soul-searching/strong feeling of failure and guilt are an integral part of the start of the grieving process.

If you feel too swamped or lost, you can find some practical help and answers for yourself and Thomas's companion for the coming days and weeks via this link here: Death, Dying, Terminal Illness; Human Grieving and Bereaved Companions: Information and Support for Owners and Their Children
 
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