Please help us to understand cause of sudden death (Graphic content and could be distressing, writing only through).

[Redcap375]

Good evening everyone,

Unfortunately my first post on this forum is also a sad one, as we lost one of our 2 Pigs today. I hope you can help me out to find the reason why.

I am a Crime Scene Manager by trade so I am naturally curious to why he died. I could take him to the human equivalent of a pathologist to preform a Post Mortem on the body but I think they would be taking it too far, both cost and reason and my wife is quite sad by the event (which you will be allude to in a short while). The ship has sailed by only curiosity remains.

Whilst I was working in Germany, we brought 2 Guinee pigs from a well know and well respected commercial pet shop. One short hair and one long hair. We approximated, and I am sure we asked but have forgot since, that they were 3-6 months old. Both were checked by the vet (as by law in Germany) with a clean bill of health.

Our first cage was the largest cage we could buy which was recommended by the vets. We used dust free saw dust and Vit C droplets in their water which we continued to use until point of death. We always gave him/them hay and ruffage however the brand changed quite often (I get around a bit, bless the family). We ended up on "Snowflake Meadow hey" and they had been eating that for the last 6 months. We ALWAYS gave them vegetables which consisted of the following:

Carrots
Broccoli
Cucumber
Celery (they loved that)
Sweet peppers (sometimes)

But mainly it was carrots, broccoli and celery.

They consumed 2 brands of pellet food. First was a good German make and the second one was "Pets-at-home nuggets with mint and rosemary" also, I believe, a good brand which they loved.

Approx 1 year ago we got rid of the sawdust and moved to absorbent bedding and a brand new cage for them. C&C which is 4 x 2 on the floor level and 2x2 with stairs on the side. So plenty of room for 2 bores and they were very active going up and down. The bedding was washed AT LEAST once every week but normally twice a week with non-bio liquid. There fabric houses were also washed, all on a high wash. The only thing that remined was a wood house they always had since we got them, they also loved to chew it (big house)

That's a bit of the background, here was the day leading to and after the event.

The day before (yesterday)....He seemed completely fine to my knowledge. I physically cleaned them out yesterday morning (new bedding) and both were their jittery selves. Ran up and down and looked fine to my knowledge. As the cage is in the same room as my works computer, I often seen them running up and down the stairs and eating.

I physically gave him a celery stick and watched him eat it, which he did (1000 hrs). The next thing I remember is seeing him drink from the large water bottle we use (about 1400 hrs). I cant remember seeing him eat anything else but I want really looking. However, I do remember seeing him eat his own poo which I have seen him do in the past and I believe is completely normal. That happened sometime at night, around 2000 hrs. That was the last time I remember looking at the cage that night.

The day of death (today) .....My wife swept up the cage which we do AT LEAST once every 2 days, mostly every day. I took my kids to swimming lesson which I do every Sunday (0900 hrs).

The moment I walked back through the door (1200 hrs), I saw my wife with the pig on her lap. My wife said then when she lifted the house up to move the pigs so she could clean, he didn't move. That was odd as they ALWAYS run when trying to pick them up or clean, he didn't but the other one did as usual. The only time they really came up to us was when giving them food directly in the past. They never stood still to be stroked. Anyway.....She said it stayed still and didn't move a inch. So she picked it up and placed it onto here lap to stroke it. Again she said it didn't move much, but It was alive.

The first time I seen the pig it looked....Sleepy. The eyes were normally fully alert when being stroked as they were always scatty, but this time they wasn't. I recall them being kind of half closed, as not alert. The biggest thing I noticed was the twitching. Not face twitching (although I didn't really focus on the face) but lower back twitching or spams. Like when we have muscles spams in a particular place on your arm. Not the whole arm, but a small area. He seems to have it on his lower part of his body. About a nail length above him bum.

It wasn't only in the same place, I think it might have moved, but it was around that area, the lower back.

I think his heart beat was fast ( I am sure it was fast, not slow) but he was also shaking. He was really shaking...

Not once did he make a sound. Not once throughout today until his death. He made no sound to "say" that he was in pain, which I found very very strange.

Summery: Half closed eyes, shaking, muscle spams (believed) in the lower back, didn't move much at all, no sounds made.

 

[Redcap375]

CONT......

We then decided that we would call the vets tomorrow (Monday) if he didn't improve as it is today, Sunday. This was the FIRST time any of the pigs have been unwell. As well as swimming, we go walking along the beach with the kids on Sunday so we left him on his favourite cushioned bed with a celery stick in front of him, hoping it will pass. We left at 1300 hrs.

About 1530 hrs we came home to find him dead. He hadn't move one inch from where we last left him with the celery stick gone (probably eaten by his cage friend). Rigor mortis had set in quite quickly so it would have been quite soon after we left. Well for a human it is normally 2-6 hours depending on various factors, a small animal? Not too sure. But from me seeing him well (believed to be well, 2000 hrs last night) wife noticing him not well (1000 hrs today) to finding him dead (1530 hrs today) it was all quite sudden.

Only other point was when I placed the deceased into a shoe box (with the kids writing a letter for it) I noticed that his bum had faeces in it. This could be natural as people can defecate themselves at point of death, apologies for the graphic description. Upon knowing this, I couldn't remember the last time I seen him have a poo, as it's something I don't really look for. So I cant say if he did or he didn't. However, the wife did say that the cage contained less poo (she believed) than normal. But she could be saying that in light of recent events. I have seen some pictures on the internet about those that are unable to pass their stools and it didn't look anything like that (wide rectum), only that it was blocked by some small poo. But like I said, could be because of death?

I hope it does not sound to distressing to those reading it and apologies for it being quite clinical, but wanted to write down as much information that we knew. Like I said, it's really baffling and if we can avoid it happening to our poor remining one, then it could shead some light.

We believe he was between 3-4 years old, probably more towards the latter.

The first place to look for answers is yourself by being completely honest. Could we have attributed to his death?

1) Their last large bottle did NOT have the vit C drops. My wife could not find the droplets and just filled it up with clean water. We have done this once in the past and no harmful effect (as we know). However, in the same day AND the day before, they were eating carrots and broccoli. They have veg every day unless we really forgot, which was rare.

2) Over feeding? We always fill there bowls up with nuggets and they have hay everyday. Veg and water on tap. They have a nibble stick from the pet shop once everyone 3-4 weeks.
They are fat pigs, but they are active. Both loving going up and down the stairs. They have to as the food is always on the top and the bedding on the bottom. Neither looked like there were walking funny or struggled to move until the deceased today.

3) We never weighed him. Linked to the above comment, we should have weighed him to gage his weigh. As he was long haired (big fluff ball we called him) he always looked big. NOTE: I have just weighed the remining pig (short haired) and he weighs 1300 grams. Again, another comment my wife made after he died was that she though he weighed less? But she said that could be down to picking up our new puppy and she can remember the weigh of the pigs. The deceased was always eating at least in the hay box we have in the cage. He normally sat in it eating way. It was hard to tell with all his fur and unless I take him back out of his peace box and shave his hair, I wont know for sure. But I believe he was the same weigh as other one currently is (1300 g). They both eat the same.

NOTE: The Deceased was always the dominant one of the 2, which was clearly visible by the mounting of the other one once in a while. 9/10, he was the one hogging the hay and got his own way.

4) He was never checked by the vets after the initial. They never needed too. We cut their nails and their teeth look fine. But it is such a shame that he didn't last until we could have taken him to the vets the first working day. To be completely honest, my wife was a lot more concerned that I was. I though he was simply unwell and would get over it given time. However, we both said that he would go to the vets if he didn't show signs of improvement. So sorry we was too late. We never expected him to go from fine to dead in such a short space of time without making a peep.

Apologies if that seems long winded but I really would like to have people thoughts on what happened and maybe what the cause of death was? In such a short space of time too!

The most comforting thing is that the wife had cuddled him and kept him on her lap just before he passed away on the same spot she placed him on when we left the house. Yes, I am sort of religious and all the things I have personally seen in my life, well lets just say somethings you cant explain....But it was like he needed that last hug before he was at peace. Coincidence? Maybe but it's always nice to think of brighter clouds.

My initial thoughts of his death? 1) A stoke or heart problem? It was the suddenness of it all. The fact that he didn't move at all, only when twitching/spasms in a certain area (like I have already stated). That he didn't make ONE sound of pain. That he was shaking all over? I hope people that have far more knowledge in this area then me can piece together what all these signs mean. 2) IF the wife was right about less poo than normal and IF the poo left in his bum before death with the wife also stating that he weighted lighter (even if he looked heavy) then maybe a gut problem? HOWEVER, would that really cause such a quick death? With no pain at all as he didn't make ONE sound of distress? If my stomach was bloated and I was having problems going to the toilet then I would be in pain and would be making some noises...Epically if I was knocking at deaths door? I don't know.

Apologies for any grammatical errors or lazy spelling but I am quite tired. It's been a very long day and back to the grind stone tomorrow.

Thank you for any help.

Mr Lewis

 

[Piggylove82]

I can't give you any answers, but I'm sorry for your loss

 

[HeatherRose]

I’m sorry for your loss. Just 2 days ago my guinea pig died suddenly with no warning. She was running around the cage, eating veggies and two hours later I found her dead. It is an awful shock that I am still dealing with. Like you, I wanted to know why she died and what happened. Basically there really is no way to tell without having a post mortum. I weigh mine regularly and do my own health checks and she had been to the vet 6 months ago for a checkup. She was also 3-4 years old. My 7 year old daughter is the one who found her so it has been traumatic for my whole family. We have 7 other guinea pigs who are now mourning her too. I’m sorry I don’t have any answers for you, but I just wanted you to know you’re not alone. Oh and the twitching and things you were talking about is the body shutting down, I held one of mine as he died last year and it sounds very similar.

 

[Hannah_xx]

I'm so sorry for you loss.
I’m sure it wasn’t anything that you and your wife done to cause his death.
Guinea pigs can die unexpectedly from heart failure, strokes and heart attacks. I lost my boar very suddenly to suspected bloat last year, so could have possibly have been that. He too had spasms while dying. Was awful..

Piggies don’t need Vit C in their water, they get plenty from the veg that you feed. It’s best to give them fresh plain water with nothing tainting it. But it’s unlikely that caused his death as he’d be use to it for so many years.

Please take time to grieve, Losing piggies.. especially so suddenly is always heartbreaking. Don’t get caught up on the ‘what if’ and ‘why’s’.. sometimes things happen that are out of our hands. And it’s beat to be their for each other and remember the good and happy memories with our pets and have peace knowing you have them love and the beat life possible.

Sleep tight piggy

 

[Freela]

I'm sorry for your loss. Obviously, it goes without saying that there is no sure way to know what happened, short of an autopsy, and it's possible that this might not even give you a clear result. A lot of what you describe sounds typical of the dying process generally in guinea pigs (apparently short course of illness, being lethargic/seizing around time of death.) I definitely can't say for sure, but I can give you the benefit of my own experience here.

First, guinea pigs are prey animals and hide symptoms until it's impossible to hide them anymore. They are very stoic about illness. General symptoms of illness in guinea pigs are pretty much what you describe here... lethargy and going off food and consequently losing weight and pooping less. This is why the forum recommends doing regular weights on guinea pigs so that if you see a weight loss you can see the vet promptly, as often this is the only sign you'll see before it's a crisis. My experience is that guinea pigs often go from fine to seeming off to death pretty quickly. Out of the last couple of pigs that we've lost, both seemed fine in the morning, not right but not critical early afternoon, gone early evening (in spite of vet visits.) Looking at them 24 hours before, you would NEVER suspect they would be gone by that time the next day. So try not to blame yourself too much here... often signs are vague and deaths are quick with guinea pigs, no matter what. Guinea pigs tend not to just 'get over' illnesses without medical intervention, probably because by the time you see they are ill they are seriously ill. If they could have gotten over it, they would have before that stage. That said, my last two pigs saw the vet the day they died and it did not change the outcome. I suspect that by the time they are immobile and twitching, they are actively dying and nothing could have been done.

Nothing you've described here would have caused the death directly... guinea pigs can't manufacture their own vitamin C, but if they are given a balanced diet they do not necessarily need a supplement, and leaving it out of the water would not cause ill effects. It could have been any number of causes (heart, illness, organ failure, etc.) but it is certainly not you or your wife's fault, so please don't blame yourself there.

For the future, I would recommend first keeping an eye on your remaining pig, just in case there was a communicable disease at play. Weighing pigs weekly is a good habit, because if you say a major change it is a red flag to get a vet assessment early. Be sure he's eating, and weight regularly to catch any early signs of illness like weight loss. If you plan on a new companion for your remaining pig, take a look at some of the stickies on introducing new pigs and observe a quarantine period to make sure neither is bringing in a communicable illness.

Hope this helps a bit and sorry that there aren't clear answers. ((HUGS)) to you and your wife and so sorry you lost your piggie.

 

[Bill & Ted]

I’m so sorry that you lost your piggie. I too recently lost my Bill suddenly out of the blue with no signs of I’ll health. I can’t advise why he died but the main thing to remember is your family gave him a lovely life, so hold on to your memories of him x

 

[Wiebke]

Hi!

A sudden death sadly usually leaves you shaken and with lots of often unanswerable questions. As humans we are wired to seek the fault within ourselves, first and foremost - which in this case was surely not the reason. However, it is impossible for us to say what exactly has happened. In view of the pulsing you are discribing, it may have been a burst internal abscess or tumour rather than a stroke or a heart attack but the cramping could have equally been caused by an organ fighting to jeep going; not that it makes a big difference in the outcome or that we can do anything but guess as wildly as you do!
Only a post mortem examination at the vet's may be able to give you the answer you are craving. Guinea pigs can die out of the blue and very quickly; because they have a much faster metabolism, you don't have the grace to wait for another day.

I am very sorry that this has happened on the weekend. Which country are you in and is there any out-of-hours cover which you could have accessed in an emergency (which this was)? You can usually find information via the phone message on your vet's phone or by googling for your area. Please make sure that you can contact a vet promptly, if at all possible; a lethargic guinea pig cannot wait.
Emergency, Crisis and Bridging Care until a Vet Appointment

By the time your wife had found your piggy, it was sadly already dying and the body was closing down. It usually depends on which organ goes first, how healthy/strong the others are and in which order they go. Once one major organ has stopped working it is sadly a one way road; but if the body is healthy, the process is not necessarily running smoothly and can be very upsetting to watch. Dying is generally much more physical than most people expect. Guinea pigs are prey animals; they are wired to suppress an enormous amount of pain and discomfort.
A Practical and Sensitive Guide to Dying, Terminal Illness and Euthanasia in Guinea Pigs

Please be kind to yourself as you go through your grieving process. We can never choose when and what from our piggies die; all we can do is make they time we have them with us a happy one, one day at a time - the way piggies experience their life and how they count it: in happy todays.
Human Bereavement: Grieving, Coping and Support Links for Guinea Pig Owners and Their Children

Here is what you can do for your bereaved companion piggy: Looking After A Bereaved Guinea Pig

PS: Unfortunately far too many owners are not aware that the mainstay of a diet is unlimited hay, hay and more hay (over 80%); the more the better for long term health (especially gut and teeth) and a longer life span. Grass is rich in vitamin C and even hay still contains it; it is the reason why guinea pigs have never had to make their own vitamin C in the first place.
Veg should be making about 10% of the daily food intake; ideally mostly leafy green (about 50g/one small bowl per piggy per day). 1 tablespoon of pellets per piggy per day is the last 5% (not more as it replaces nutritious hay with mostly cheap empty fillers in effect). Carrots are very high in sugar and are like feeding cake and chocolate to piggies which can encourage bad bacteria in the gut; broccoli is also on the rich side with high calcium. It is however extremely doubtful that eating their veg was the direct cause of the demise - this is just addressing the way owners generally only report the veg intake when there is health issue.
Long Term Balanced General And Special Needs Guinea Pig Diets

Please have a healthy piggy vet checked at least once a year. Weigh once weekly and give them a body check at the same time as part of regular health monitoring so you can catch slow developing health problems early on. it wouldn't have likely made a big change in your case, but it might at another time.
Weight - Monitoring and Management
Guinea pig body quirks - What is normal and what not?
Boar Care: Bits, Bums & Baths