Piggy with arthritis

[luckyandsammy]

Hi,
I travelled an hour and a half today to take my guinea pig, Finn to what was supposed to be a guinea pig savvy vet. I suspected he has arthritis and that was the reason for the visit.
Finn is about 4 and a half.
The vet confirmed he has arthritis, and she prescribed him what I think is a small dose (I’m not sure if I’m allowed to say how much!) of cat loxicom to give once a day. She also said Finn is obese - he’s about 1180g. She wants me to give him less pellets, but he only has about 10g a day now! She wants him to go down to about 1kg. Most of my guinea pigs weigh more than this! I also asked her about the 4joints supplement as I started him on it but she said she can’t recommend a dose as it’s not a product for guinea pigs, and suggested I look for a guinea pig product. Finn DOES NOT like the oxbow joint support treats and he refused to eat them.
She also wants a urine sample to check if he’s okay to be on meloxicam, this is fine and I will get one as soon as possible.
I just wanted to see what your thoughts were, as this is definitely not what I was expecting, I kind of feel like I could have gone to any vet for this?

 

[Piggies&buns]

Pain meds are given on a scale depending on clinical need - the dose doesnt necessarily have to be big one if he doesn’t need it but obviously too low and it won’t be effective. Twice a day is normal though given their faster metabolism.
You can say what the dose is, we just can’t say that you should increase it. You can only give what the vet has prescribed.

The number on the scales is not indicative of what is healthy for him. Checking his heft - feeling around his ribs - is how to determine what is right for him.

There are several members who use 4joints.

 

[piggieminder]

I use 4joints, we think it is helping, vets at our surgery were very interested that I was trying it, thought it was a good idea and are now suggesting it to others. Guinea pigs take lots of medications that aren't made specifically for them, very few are.

 

[Free Ranger]

My old boy George had arthritis in his creaky knees and he was on dog metacam. As far as we know he didn't have a significant problem with it anywhere else - some pigs can get it in their spine which is troublesome. Did your vet say where his problem was? And how much bother he's having? What are his symptoms?

George started at roughly 0.25ml twice a day which was 2-3 'units' of the 1.5mg/ml (it was a while ago, sorry I've forgotten!) He went higher as he got old and he also developed bladder stones at 5 1/2 so he was on 4-5 units twice a day. I'm sure metacam eased his discomfort but after a few months on that we also tried the glucosamine and it made a big difference to him - it surprised me how much. He loved the oxbow joint support biccies so that wasn't a problem - after about 2 weeks on it I thought I could see him being a bit more chipper but after a month he was definitely more mobile. He went on OJS when he was diagnosed at 3 1/2 and stayed on both this and metacam until he left us this year at 6. One of my other pigs also loved it but my Flora won't touch them. If she ever needed it she would have to have it mixed in with critical care and syringed I suppose. However, she does like the oxbow urinary support ones in the yellow and white packet. This only has half the glucosamine (45mg rather than 90mg) but that's better than nothing and it's the same stuff that helps both joints and bladders. It's possible that once he built up to a useful level this might be OK for maintenance - I mean sometimes we ran out of purple and George went on yellow for a few days and he didn't suddenly seize up again (that's why we got the yellows in the first place). The high doses in things like feliway cystease (120mg/capsule... I think?) are used more by owners of cystitis piggies (SIC).

George was a hefty 1.4kg on diagnosis: after a month on glucosamine he was 1.3kg because he was significantly more mobile. He stayed that weight throughout his life. Healthy pigs generally sort out their own weight - there's not really a deal we can do about it as long as we're not over-doing the sweet treats. Anyone who's ever despaired over a poorly pig losing weight will have realised that no matter how many veggies or pellets it looks like they're eating it's actually the calories from the 24/7 hay munching that we are struggling to replace with syringe food. Unless your boy has a very small frame just over a kilo doesn't sound chubby...

If your budget can stretch to the oxbow urinary support I think I'd give that a go. They're designed for the small furries after all. But yes, other people on the forum have used 4joints and cystease with success (do a little search) it's just that I'm not sure how tasty these are for piggies so if you're putting him on them long term it might be a daily battle!

 

[luckyandsammy]

Pain meds are given on a scale depending on clinical need - the dose doesnt necessarily have to be big one if he doesn’t need it but obviously too low and it won’t be effective. Twice a day is normal though given their faster metabolism.
You can say what the dose is, we just can’t say that you should increase it. You can only give what the vet has prescribed.

The number on the scales is not indicative of what is healthy for him. Checking his heft - feeling around his ribs - is how to determine what is right for him.

There are several members who use 4joints.

She prescribed 0.2ml once a day.
It doesn’t seem like enough to me, I’m not an expert but from what I can remember my other guinea pigs always had a higher dose?

I’m also not sure how I can get him to lose weight, he’s always been a big boy. He gets the same amount of food as my other guinea pigs, and he is not the dominant pig in his cage so I don’t think he’s eating more of the food. Like I said, he only gets about 10g of pellets a day which is about half a teaspoon. Other than that he has unlimited hay, either orchard or timothy and then in the evenings a handful of veg or some fresh grass and forage. I really don’t know what I’m supposed to be reducing, especially because the vet said he can still have lots of greens. I don’t feed a lot of carrots or anything like that. It’s the pellets she wanted reduced but I’d prefer to stick to what he’s having now just to fill any vitamin holes.

 

[luckyandsammy]

I use 4joints, we think it is helping, vets at our surgery were very interested that I was trying it, thought it was a good idea and are now suggesting it to others. Guinea pigs take lots of medications that aren't made specifically for them, very few are.

I might stick with it then, she didn’t say NOT to give it but she thought a guinea pig product might be better. The problem is, there isn’t much out there for guinea pigs…
Did you notice your guinea pigs pee smelling really bad after starting the 4joints? Finn has been on it for about a week now and it seems so much stronger

 

[luckyandsammy]

My old boy George had arthritis in his creaky knees and he was on dog metacam. As far as we know he didn't have a significant problem with it anywhere else - some pigs can get it in their spine which is troublesome. Did your vet say where his problem was? And how much bother he's having? What are his symptoms?

George started at roughly 0.25ml twice a day which was 2-3 'units' of the 1.5mg/ml (it was a while ago, sorry I've forgotten!) He went higher as he got old and he also developed bladder stones at 5 1/2 so he was on 4-5 units twice a day. I'm sure metacam eased his discomfort but after a few months on that we also tried the glucosamine and it made a big difference to him - it surprised me how much. He loved the oxbow joint support biccies so that wasn't a problem - after about 2 weeks on it I thought I could see him being a bit more chipper but after a month he was definitely more mobile. He went on OJS when he was diagnosed at 3 1/2 and stayed on both this and metacam until he left us this year at 6. One of my other pigs also loved it but my Flora won't touch them. If she ever needed it she would have to have it mixed in with critical care and syringed I suppose. However, she does like the oxbow urinary support ones in the yellow and white packet. This only has half the glucosamine (45mg rather than 90mg) but that's better than nothing and it's the same stuff that helps both joints and bladders. It's possible that once he built up to a useful level this might be OK for maintenance - I mean sometimes we ran out of purple and George went on yellow for a few days and he didn't suddenly seize up again (that's why we got the yellows in the first place). The high doses in things like feliway cystease (120mg/capsule... I think?) are used more by owners of cystitis piggies (SIC).

George was a hefty 1.4kg on diagnosis: after a month on glucosamine he was 1.3kg because he was significantly more mobile. He stayed that weight throughout his life. Healthy pigs generally sort out their own weight - there's not really a deal we can do about it as long as we're not over-doing the sweet treats. Anyone who's ever despaired over a poorly pig losing weight will have realised that no matter how many veggies or pellets it looks like they're eating it's actually the calories from the 24/7 hay munching that we are struggling to replace with syringe food. Unless your boy has a very small frame just over a kilo doesn't sound chubby...

If your budget can stretch to the oxbow urinary support I think I'd give that a go. They're designed for the small furries after all. But yes, other people on the forum have used 4joints and cystease with success (do a little search) it's just that I'm not sure how tasty these are for piggies so if you're putting him on them long term it might be a daily battle!

So I think she said he seems stiff in his hips and his legs. I suspected he had it because he has been laying down a lot more than usual. By the food bowl, by the water bottle (which is common with my piggies anyway, but he seemed to do it a lot more than usual) and there was something off about the way he walked, it was a lot slower. Once in a while he “bunny hops” instead of walking.

Your boys metacam was a lot higher than Finn’s then! I’m concerned the 0.2ml of the cat one won’t make a difference. I don’t know if I should take him somewhere else for a second opinion.

I might try the urinary support, I’ve done lots of research over the past week or so, while waiting for his appointment which is why I decided to start him on the 4joints. I just wish the vet could confirm the dose was okay. Finn’s not the biggest fan of taking it, he bites the syringe and doesn’t let me take it out when I give it to him but maybe he’ll get used to it eventually.

 

[piggieminder]

I might stick with it then, she didn’t say NOT to give it but she thought a guinea pig product might be better. The problem is, there isn’t much out there for guinea pigs…
Did you notice your guinea pigs pee smelling really bad after starting the 4joints? Finn has been on it for about a week now and it seems so much stronger

No, I didn't notice any problems with it. I've got 2 boys on it. It's of of those things that's difficult to say if it helps as I don't know how they would be without it.

 

[Piggies&buns]

That dose of cat is low particularly at once a day.

Have you checked his heft?
If his heft is ok then you don’t need to do anything - he won’t need to lose weight.
Saying he needs to be below a kilo is not necessarily what is healthy for him.
Both my two older piggies are still over a kilo at just over 5 years of age. One of them was 1.5kg in his prime - not overweight at all.

 

[Tigermoth]

I have an arthritic pig. I see Vets4Pets in Newmarket which is only an hour or so up the road from Peterborough I think? Their lead is an expert in rabbits but also has an interest in pigs and wanted to make sure the store pigs were well looked after. I took Jenny with hair loss (honestly, how she isn’t bald I have no idea, it came out in clumps) to see one of the group vets and we also talked about her general health. I suspected arthritis and they took her out the back for Ian to give a second opinion. They came back with a plan to put her on palliative care which allowed them freedom to give increasing doses of metacam. They started her on dog at 0.2ml x2 daily with a view to increasing if needed. It is damaging to the kidneys but a trade off in life span is worthwhile for quality for her. She is a tiny pig, 650g so this is a decent amount. I’m considering asking for an increase for her when we get a repeat. I’d not even thought about glucosamine though She is so old I didn’t expect to get through the first bottle of metacam let alone be asking for a third soon! So I didn’t think longer term and I should.

 

[Free Ranger]

If your vet is sticking to the license conditions they won't give more than 0.2ml of Cat strength but mine allowed me to sign a waiver and get the dog one. They had been prescribing it for years before the cat one got licensed (not too long ago). I usually have an older pig or two so generally speaking someone is always on it but we had a gap when miraculously everypig was doing fine. So the next time I went back to the vet I couldn't understand what had happened! I get memory loss so I thought it was me - I had to put a thread on here for others to confirm it.
George started with a stone and recurrent UTIs on the back of that, but this was when he was 5 1/2 so it could have been his 2 years on metacam or it could have just been age. If you asked him I reckon he'd have told you he'd rather have had it than not though.

We deffo saw a glucosamine difference. I was pretty sceptical about all that but I inherited a 1/2 bag of OJS from my friend when her old bun passed and I thought waste not want not really. He seemed to enjoy crunching them up so I gave him one a day and didn't think any more about it until I saw him trotting round one day. Trotting mind you - George hadn't trotted in months! Then I started to look at the calendar and put two and two together...

 

[luckyandsammy]

Thank you for your replies!
We had the urine test done and apparently the results were "unremarkable", Finn's kidneys are working perfectly and the vet is happy for him to stay on (cat) metacam.
Unfortunately, the dose he was taking didn't seem to do anything, I mentioned this to the vet and she allowed me to give him 0.2ml twice a day, instead of just in the evening. I'm hoping this helps but he's only been taking the extra dose since yesterday morning.
If I don't notice a difference in a week I will need to email her and she will look into prescribing other medication.

Does this sound right?

 

[Free Ranger]

I think that's fair enough. Pain tends to stop them eating so if he's not getting any lighter it's actually going to be a good sign. Even though I haven't seen him I don't think he sounds overweight. Do try and keep going with some sort of glucosamine even if it's not a high dose. It made more of a difference for George than his metacam did. It'll take a few weeks before you can see a difference though x