Dental Piggy had tongue entrapment due to malocclusion, went through multiple trimmings but still not eating:(

[nakul235]

Hi everyone,
I really need your advice for my piggy Charlie, who is a one year old boy.

Tl;dr : Charlie stopped eating and was diagnosed with a dental spur which was apparently entrapping his tongue. His spur was removed and he has had his molars trimmed but he still hasn't started eating on his own and seems to be in pain. His lower jaw seems to be hanging and displaced too and I don't think that his tongue is functioning properly either.

Sequence of events (Almost 4 weeks in total)

• 
  Charlie stopped eating everything except his favorite treats like banana, lettuce etc. Got him checked and found that he had overgrown molars which was entrapping his tongue. The vet also trimmed his lower incisors and probably way too much! Not just that he did it with a nail clipper
  
• The vet removed his spur and put him on a painkiller. I had to keep handfeeding him and I waited for a week for him to show any signs of improvement but I saw none. He wanted to eat but was totally unable to open his mouth to pick the food. Even though it might have been because of the trimmed incisors, even when we fed him his chew speed was extremely slow.
• 
  Got another xray done to see that the spur was removed and it mostly looked ok.

• https://imgur.com/a/1XSQe2r

• I noticed that his jaw was hanging and also seemed to be a little displaced to the right.
• I went to another specialist who took a new xray. She said that charlie has some imbalance in the growth of the premolars which might be the reason behind his jaw hanging (not sure of that) but his teeth mostly looked good. She trimmed the molars a bit but she also said that he has some elongation in the roots too.
• 
• Now this is the latest xray taken today.

Currently, Charlie isn't able to eat on his own. He cannot open his mouth and his jaw is almost always hanging to the right. His chew speed is also very slow compared to normal.
I noticed today that his tongue doesn't seem to be working correctly. I can't see it moving normally when I feed him. He always seems sad and in pain. He is on Meloxicam and Baytril right now. I am considering to make a chin sling for him but I am seriously out of ideas now.

Do you think his molars still need work? Or if not, if its the jaw or the tongue, what can I do to relieve him of the pain?
Please any suggestions would be really helpful.

 

[nakul235]

PS. I am in India and we seriously don't have many experienced exotic vets here. Reading all the threads here, I so wish I could visit the Cat and Rabbit clinic

 

[Hannah_xx]

Oh poor Charlie! You sound like a wonderful owner for caring about him so much with all these vet trips.
I’m afraid I don’t have any experience with teeth problems therefore am not in a position to give advice, I’m sure someone else will be along soon with some helpful advice.
All I can say is that non-exotic vets can really butcher guinea pigs teeth if they do not know exactly what they are doing, it’s unlikely that his molars needed much of a trim.
As he isn’t eating have you stepped in with syringe feeding? I’m unsure of what’s available in India but other countries have a product called ‘critical care’ that you form into a paste and feed to them through a feeding syringe to ensure that their gut keeps moving with food.
Teeth problems usually only occur if piggy’s don’t have access 24/7 to hay or grass. (Or through bad genetics and breeding) does Charlie have hay available at all times?
He also looks like he could do with a little nail trim
Fingers crossed Charlie starts eating and improving soon

 

[Wiebke]

Hi and welcome

I am linking in @furryfriends (TEAS) for you as she is the most experienced with guinea pigs with severe dental problems.

 

[Siikibam]

I’m so sorry to hear about how your boy is suffering. As he is not eating for himself, you will have to syringe feed him often and as much as he will take. You’re aiming for minimum 60ml in a 24 hour period. You will also need to start weighing him once daily (morning) to keep an eye on his weight. Hay is the largest part of their diet and if they’re not eating enough, it can lead to weight loss and problems with teeth. So he needs fibre rather than veg.

I’ve no experience with teeth so won’t even guess at what may be wrong. The right person has been tagged above. Hopefully they will be able to help you to an extent.

Wishing you and your boy all the best.

Not Eating, Weight Loss And The Importance Of Syringe Feeding Fibre
Complete Syringe Feeding Guide

PS please can you add your location to your profile. That way you won’t be repeatedly asked

 

[nakul235]

Oh poor Charlie! You sound like a wonderful owner for caring about him so much with all these vet trips.
I’m afraid I don’t have any experience with teeth problems therefore am not in a position to give advice, I’m sure someone else will be along soon with some helpful advice.
All I can say is that non-exotic vets can really butcher guinea pigs teeth if they do not know exactly what they are doing, it’s unlikely that his molars needed much of a trim.
As he isn’t eating have you stepped in with syringe feeding? I’m unsure of what’s available in India but other countries have a product called ‘critical care’ that you form into a paste and feed to them through a feeding syringe to ensure that their gut keeps moving with food.
Teeth problems usually only occur if piggy’s don’t have access 24/7 to hay or grass. (Or through bad genetics and breeding) does Charlie have hay available at all times?
He also looks like he could do with a little nail trim
Fingers crossed Charlie starts eating and improving soon

Yes I am feeding him pellet slurry along with mashed veggies. His nails are also trimmed now.
The whole problem is the serious dearth of exotic vets here which is why I had to make all the trips and might have to make more.
Hoping that I don't have to though.

 

[nakul235]

Hi and welcome

I am linking in @furryfriends (TEAS) for you as she is the most experienced with guinea pigs with severe dental problems.

Yes please. I've read about her in this group and her advice would be much appreciated.

 

[nakul235]

I’m so sorry to hear about how your boy is suffering. As he is not eating for himself, you will have to syringe feed him often and as much as he will take. You’re aiming for minimum 60ml in a 24 hour period. You will also need to start weighing him once daily (morning) to keep an eye on his weight. Hay is the largest part of their diet and if they’re not eating enough, it can lead to weight loss and problems with teeth. So he needs fibre rather than veg.

I’ve no experience with teeth so won’t even guess at what may be wrong. The right person has been tagged above. Hopefully they will be able to help you to an extent.

Wishing you and your boy all the best.

Not Eating, Weight Loss And The Importance Of Syringe Feeding Fibre
Complete Syringe Feeding Guide

PS please can you add your location to your profile. That way you won’t be repeatedly asked

Yeah good idea, just added it in the profile.
And yes I am feeding him pellet slurry along with mashed veggies.

 

[Wiebke]

Yes please. I've read about her in this group and her advice would be much appreciated.

I hope that she is not too busy to come on here but she should have got an alert.

My own experience (or rather lack of in this respect) doesn't exceed what has been already said and suggested.

 

[nakul235]

Her is the latest video of his jaw. He is gradually starting to not like being syringe fed and I am really concerned now.

https://imgur.com/a/gI8Eqar

 

[Siikibam]

I’m afraid your video link isn’t working. You’re better off uploading to YouTube then posting the link here.

You will have to continue with syringe feeding if he’s not eating. Sorry.

 

[nakul235]

Yes I am continuing feeding and I don't mind doing that for his lifetime as long as he's happy. Right now he looks plain sad.

Anyway, this is the youtube link here.
Charlie misaligned jaw


I read in @furryfriends (TEAS)'s replies to other threads that this is because of molar growth imbalances which will require a really good vet to see his teeth. Since there is probably none here in India, do you know if there is a way that I can consult an experienced vet online (Simon and Kim would be great really!)?

 

[nakul235]

Still no luck with anything and waiting for some guidance from this forum.
I have designed this chin sling but idk I don't like doing this. I doubt it will help and it might be bothering him as he's already in pain

 

[Wheekallweek]

I'm so sorry this is happening to your piggy. I have nothing else to add to the advice you've already been given but just wanted to say good luck to you and Charlie, and well done for looking after him so well; you obviously care for him a great deal

 

[Siikibam]

Please don’t put that on him. It’s not likely to help and may also be uncomfortable for him. And they shouldn’t be ‘dressed’ in anything.

His jaw is misaligned for a reason that your vets may not be able to work out. I’m sorry you feel helpless but you are doing well. Keep going with the syringe feeding, as much as he can take every two hours if possible.

 

[weepweeps]

Poor Charlie. I’m so sorry there are no good vets where you live. Will he lick the pellet mush from a bowl on his own?

 

[furryfriends (TEAS)]

There is clearly something very wrong with his jaw/teeth, but without a vet who can sort this, you are in a very difficult position. My heart goes out to you! xx

 

[Free Ranger]

I can see what you mean about how he holds his jaw to one side. I think you are right and he is feeling sad and has pain. But I'm not sure this is 'hanging' - I don't think the sling is the right thing for charlie. But if he has a pain in one side (like an abscess in the roots) he will hold his mouth open in the position that relieves the pressure most and try to chew in a way that it doesn't hurt. So the jaw position might not be the cause but the symptom if you see what I mean. Identifying the source of his pain and treating this if possible could be the way forward. His incisors look like they are starting to slant on one side - this will be wear from uneven chewing. Again this can be as a result of pain on one side.

This is a little vid of my previous piggy Zara. She had a problem with her bottom incisor so as she chewed and this caught against the top it hurt her. You can see how she chews with open mouth and bottom jaw stuck out. But there was actually nothing wrong with her molars.


Perhaps the first dental procedure triggered something - or perhaps there was something brewing for a while which made him chew in a strange way and affected the teeth over time. I do not know whether abscesses can be identified on x-ray - so sorry - but perhaps your vet (the second one) will be able to tell you this via telephone or e-mail? I am not a vet so i don't know what to look for

He has been on an antibiotics for a few days now and I am guessing no obvious improvement? I have seen @furryfriends (TEAS) talk about an antibiotic called Zithromax which is apparently very effective for dental abscess infections. Perhaps this is an option your vet will consider to try?

The only other thing is how much painkiller is he on and is it helping at all. My George is just under 1.4 kilo. He has 4 'units' of 1.5mg/ml metacam morning and evening for his arthritis. This is about 0.3ml each time but the syringe is a strange one with a pic of a dog on it because the units are per kilo of dog! George will be on this for the rest of his life and he's doing just fine. Other pigs with more painful issues like bladder problems have had higher doses.

Good luck Charlie - I will be away from the forum for a few days as I have to go and see the human vet but I hope your loving owner can find someone to help you out.

 

[nakul235]

Poor Charlie. I’m so sorry there are no good vets where you live. Will he lick the pellet mush from a bowl on his own?

No he can't eat anything on his own. I have never been able to see get his tongue out to lick anything. He sometimes starts eats banana but has a real hard time doing so.

 

[nakul235]

I'm so sorry this is happening to your piggy. I have nothing else to add to the advice you've already been given but just wanted to say good luck to you and Charlie, and well done for looking after him so well; you obviously care for him a great deal

Thank you, he needs all yhe wishes he can get.

 

[nakul235]

Please don’t put that on him. It’s not likely to help and may also be uncomfortable for him. And they shouldn’t be ‘dressed’ in anything.

His jaw is misaligned for a reason that your vets may not be able to work out. I’m sorry you feel helpless but you are doing well. Keep going with the syringe feeding, as much as he can take every two hours if possible.

Yes I am observing him and I will get rid of it if it doesn't help at all.
I do feel helpless hence desperate. I am trying to find an exotic vet who can consult online. If you know please share.

 

[nakul235]

There is clearly something very wrong with his jaw/teeth, but without a vet who can sort this, you are in a very difficult position. My heart goes out to you! xx

I am trying to find an experienced vet who can guide me online or even be willing to guide a local vet with the dental? Do you think that would be possible?

 

[furryfriends (TEAS)]

Our vet may be willing to offer advice to another vet.

 

[nakul235]

Our vet may be willing to offer advice to another vet.

That would be really helpful for Charlie. But before that I should consult him/her online right? If not very inconvenient, can you please ask your vet or tell me how to book an online appointment with him/her?

 

[nakul235]

I can see what you mean about how he holds his jaw to one side. I think you are right and he is feeling sad and has pain. But I'm not sure this is 'hanging' - I don't think the sling is the right thing for charlie. But if he has a pain in one side (like an abscess in the roots) he will hold his mouth open in the position that relieves the pressure most and try to chew in a way that it doesn't hurt. So the jaw position might not be the cause but the symptom if you see what I mean. Identifying the source of his pain and treating this if possible could be the way forward. His incisors look like they are starting to slant on one side - this will be wear from uneven chewing. Again this can be as a result of pain on one side.

This is a little vid of my previous piggy Zara. She had a problem with her bottom incisor so as she chewed and this caught against the top it hurt her. You can see how she chews with open mouth and bottom jaw stuck out. But there was actually nothing wrong with her molars.
View attachment 203708

Perhaps the first dental procedure triggered something - or perhaps there was something brewing for a while which made him chew in a strange way and affected the teeth over time. I do not know whether abscesses can be identified on x-ray - so sorry - but perhaps your vet (the second one) will be able to tell you this via telephone or e-mail? I am not a vet so i don't know what to look for

He has been on an antibiotics for a few days now and I am guessing no obvious improvement? I have seen @furryfriends (TEAS) talk about an antibiotic called Zithromax which is apparently very effective for dental abscess infections. Perhaps this is an option your vet will consider to try?

The only other thing is how much painkiller is he on and is it helping at all. My George is just under 1.4 kilo. He has 4 'units' of 1.5mg/ml metacam morning and evening for his arthritis. This is about 0.3ml each time but the syringe is a strange one with a pic of a dog on it because the units are per kilo of dog! George will be on this for the rest of his life and he's doing just fine. Other pigs with more painful issues like bladder problems have had higher doses.

Good luck Charlie - I will be away from the forum for a few days as I have to go and see the human vet but I hope your loving owner can find someone to help you out.

Thank you so much for sharing your experience. You gave a lot of useful points to consider, the sling does seem to not help with his jaw shifted to the right. Which is why I have stopped using it for now but I do plan to make one with a more elastic material so that it supports his jaw sideways too.
I am trying really hard to identify the source of his pain and will be trying out with more vets for the same. Currently, my top priority is to somehow consult a good experienced vet online. If you have any suggestions then I would be very grateful if you could share them.


I am not sure about giving any more antibiotics but yes I have increased the painkiller dosage. I have the exact same meloxicam bottle (1.5mg/ml) and I give 4 drops of it twice a day. He seems to be doing better with it but I don't think that it has helped a lot with his pain. I will be trying Gabapentin after this to see if that alleviates more.

Once again, thank you so much and please let me know if you have any suggestions for me.

 

[nakul235]

Hey @furryfriends (TEAS) , I am so sorry to bother you with this, how can I get in touch with your vet to ask about their availability for an online consultation?

 

[furryfriends (TEAS)]

Hey @furryfriends (TEAS) , I am so sorry to bother you with this, how can I get in touch with your vet to ask about their availability for an online consultation?

As the practice isn’t taking on new clients I doubt you would get an online consultation. However, Simon may be willing to discuss the case directly with your vet.

 

[nakul235]

As the practice isn’t taking on new clients I doubt you would get an online consultation. However, Simon may be willing to discuss the case directly with your vet.

Okay, so I'll talk to my vet about this and hopefully she is willing to talk too.

 

[Free Ranger]

Hi, I'm back online. I hope you manage to get a consult between vets.

The only pigs I've seen that have been helped by any sort of sling are poor pigs whose mouth has been held wide open for so long by overgrown teeth that the muscles are too slack to close it again after a dental. But I've only read about such piggies online - I've no experience of slings personally. If Charlie can chew syringe food even a little I'm not sure slack muscles are his problem - and I think you would have noticed if he couldn't close his mouth in the first place because you are such a caring owner. Your original post said that he stopped eating (presumably because of the spur). So if he can chew his slurry - even if it is slow for him - I would not think it was a mechanical problem. I would think it was because of pain. After a dental at my local vets we were prescribed a week of antibiotics and painkillers as a precaution to try and get my pig eating as soon as possible so our vet expected the mouth might be tender for a week, and that maybe an infection could develop at that point if there wasn't one already...

I'm sorry for the misunderstanding about antibiotics - I wasn't suggesting to ask about Zithromax in addition to Baytril, but perhaps instead of Baytril. So Charlie would still only be on one antibiotic. It's just that I've read posts before saying that if dental abscesses are present they can be very difficult to treat with standard piggy antibiotics. I don't know why this would be though. If we get antibiotics for anything piggy it's usually Baytril first and another one called Septrin if the Baytril doesn't work. Baytril has been used for so long that some bacteria have developed resistance to it - but it's possible that dental abscesses are tough to deal with anyway even if the antibiotic is still active against the causative germ.

Everything crossed for Charlie x