Pellets and Vitamin D...

[Storm1974]

I've read a lot on here about the fact that our pigs shouldn't really be eating a lot of pellets and although we do feed them good quality ones (Versele Laga Cavia), they do only have quite a small amount a day (AND we stupidly brought a massive 8kg bag, which we've not even got half way through yet!), we don't want to overdo it with the pellets because of the extra calcium ....BUT, the only thing that puts us off giving them less pellets, is that the pellets contain Vitamin D, and because the boys don't get outside very often due to the weather being either too windy or wet since we've had them (We also had some building work being done on the outside over the last couple of weeks, when the weather was better, so they couldn't go out then either), how will they get their 'all important' Vit D if we cut right down on their pellets?

I sort of see the pellets as vitamin tablets for the boys, but if it's only really due to the high calcium levels feeding both pellets and fresh food high in calcium, then I would probably prefer to cut down on the higher calcium veg. One of my fave YT channels LA Guinea Pig Rescue always has full bowls of pellets though and they also don't seem to worry too much about feeding too much calcium rich veg either. The owner 'Saskia' actually did a video on this subject a while ago and said it was the oxylates that were actually more of a problem and that we shouldn't really limit their calcium, just oxylate rich veg (But she also seems to feed a lot of parsley which is apparently high in oxylates, though I'm not sure if she 'still' does that?), and she also said that some pigs are genetically more prone to getting stones than other pigs......

On that note, does anybody know if there is anything we can give our piggies as a preventative to getting stones, or any form of treatment (Other than surgery which is risky) that can help dissolve them if they actually develop them?

 

[Lorcan]

My guinea pigs don't go outside - I have no garden, and they're skinnies and I'm in Manchester so without a garden it's no use having them out. I don't worry about supplementing Vitamin D, because they're otherwise fine. They really don't need it.

 

[Bradshaw Piggies]

We do have a garden, but we have a dog (with a high prey drive) so I don't tend to have the piggies outside. They live indoors year round. I've never had to supplement - just a balanced diet of good quality hay, small amounts of pellets and small amounts of veggies

 

[Bluebell]

I watched something from that lady - posted here I think, and apart from the fact that I was stunned by her eyebrows etc, (how does anyone with animals to care for get those long nails?,mine would get ripped off by the dogs' leads in five seconds flat!) I was interested in what she was saying and probably agree with a fair bit. I have been 50/50 about whether this bladder stone problem was genetic or diet, or both. When I had to bring mine indoors I was convinced that I would start having problems due to that, as until now I haven't ever had any such problems, despite having multiple guinea pigs for decades.

I do feed completely differently to internet rules, in fact I daily break most of them for sure - so I can't truthfully rule out diet, but am begining to lean more towards there being a genetic disposition towards such problems in the poor guineas bred for the pet trade, whcih may be aggravated by such things as a dry diet, but means diet is not the only cause.

I do feel sad when I see owners who have done their level best for their pets struggling with these things, especially knowing what vet prices are like currently.

 

[Storm1974]

My guinea pigs don't go outside - I have no garden, and they're skinnies and I'm in Manchester so without a garden it's no use having them out. I don't worry about supplementing Vitamin D, because they're otherwise fine. They really don't need it.

Then, yours obviously get enough D from their pellets.

 

[Lorcan]

Hence why I said "they really don't need it" when talking about supplementing their diet

 

[Bradshaw Piggies]

I remember having the bladder stone conversation with our vets. I've luckily only ever had one develop them. The vets discussed that there is a strong link between hydration and stones; rather than simply diet alone. There is still limited evidence to support a genetic link, but that's not to say it isn't true. Often stones can form as a secondary condition following other illnesses.

My vets said that domesticated pigs rarely actually consume enough water. They suggested wetting veggies before feeding to help combat this. Age, lack of mobility and feeding of fruit/veggies can contribute to reduce water intake.

 

[Piggies&buns]

The amounts they need a very small. The diet is balanced for all they need nutrient wise when getting one tablespoon of pellets, one cup of veg and unlimited hay.
If you don’t feed pellets there is space to increase calcium rich veg a little.
I don’t feed pellets more than twice a week: they also get quite a wet diet as I feed more than one cup of veg per day. They also get a lot of grass and fresh forage. No bladder issues at all here and I’ve kept small animals for 35 years.

There is not much you can do to prevent stones other than keep a balanced grass and hay based diet. There is a genetic element, nothing you can do about that.

There is nothing to dissolve stones once formed. If there was it would be huge news.
Surgery is the only way to remove stones particularly in boars where the risk of one passing on is great - the risk of blockage in the urethra is an emergency and life threatening situation.

 

[Storm1974]

Another thing re bladder/kidney stones, oxylates AND pellets. I have just been reading up about high oxylate foods and one of them is wheat, now I know we don't intentionally feed our piggies wheat, but I have noticed that a lot of the main brand pellets like Science Select and Burgess contain quite a lot of wheat which is terrible, and the Burgess also contains a lot of genetically modified soy, which is even worse! Now I'm so pleased that I am feeding the pellets I am as they don't contain either of these harmful ingredients. So, maybe the pellets people are feeding are contributing to the bladder stones in some pigs. When I first owned GPs back in the early 2000s, I can't remember what I fed them, but I'm pretty sure it was just lots of grass, dandelion leaves and veggies, and I don't remember them ever developing stones, though it was a long time ago....

 

[Piggies&buns]

Another thing re bladder/kidney stones, oxylates AND pellets. I have just been reading up about high oxylate foods and one of them is wheat, now I know we don't intentionally feed our piggies wheat, but I have noticed that a lot of the main brand pellets like Science Select and Burgess contain quite a lot of wheat which is terrible, and the Burgess also contains a lot of genetically modified soy, which is even worse! Now I'm so pleased that I am feeding the pellets I am as they don't contain either of these harmful ingredients. So, maybe the pellets people are feeding are contributing to the bladder stones in some pigs. When I first owned GPs back in the early 2000s, I can't remember what I fed them, but I'm pretty sure it was just lots of grass, dandelion leaves and veggies, and I don't remember them ever developing stones, though it was a long time ago....

Yes. This is why we always advise grain free.

I use piggie parcels pellets which contain no grains, no soy and are just plant based. Piggie parcels is run by a member of this forum and the pellets were designed with all this in mind.
They are, in my opinion, the best pellets by far

 

[Bradshaw Piggies]

Not trying to sound too much like I'm lecturing here..... (despite my day job ) but I just wanted to say.. 'be careful what you read......'

 

[Storm1974]

I remember having the bladder stone conversation with our vets. I've luckily only ever had one develop them. The vets discussed that there is a strong link between hydration and stones; rather than simply diet alone. There is still limited evidence to support a genetic link, but that's not to say it isn't true. Often stones can form as a secondary condition following other illnesses.

My vets said that domesticated pigs rarely actually consume enough water. They suggested wetting veggies before feeding to help combat this. Age, lack of mobility and feeding of fruit/veggies can contribute to reduce water intake.

Yes my young boys barely ever drink their water!

 

[Bradshaw Piggies]

Yes my young boys barely ever drink their water!

It's difficult to actually quantify how much they need; as all piggies are different. I wouldn't overly worry, as what is a small amount of water to us, isn't particularly a small amount to them.
I find mine drink a lot, but I put that down to living indoors (central heating = drier air), dry hay means more water intake etc

 

[piggieminder]

Not trying to sound too much like I'm lecturing here..... (despite my day job ) but I just wanted to say.. 'be careful what you read......'

I totally agree.
I've seen a lot of vets (exotics) over the last few years. Here are some comments that have made me think.
"Nothing wrong with wheat, it's a bandwagon animal owners have jumped on, if non wheat food sells manufacturers will make it".
"Your two older boars could have such bad arthritis because their diet has been too low in calcium".
"You aren't feeding enough veg, the diet is too dry".
It seems to me you it's difficult to do right, the old saying 'you can't please all of the people all of the time' springs to mind. I follow the forum mainly but I do also do what I think is right, mostly guided by the vets at the practise I go to. There is very little research and even if there was research answers tend to be in the best interests of the body paying for the research.
Having had 3 piggies with stones in the past I can say diet is a worry for me. I have been told by more than one vet that genetics play a part. I have a genetic kidney disease that causes stones my self so I can believe that.

 

[Bradshaw Piggies]

I totally agree.
I've seen a lot of vets (exotics) over the last few years. Here are some comments that have made me think.
"Nothing wrong with wheat, it's a bandwagon animal owners have jumped on, if non wheat food sells manufacturers will make it".
"Your two older boars could have such bad arthritis because their diet has been too low in calcium".
"You aren't feeding enough veg, the diet is too dry".
It seems to me you it's difficult to do right, the old saying 'you can't please all of the people all of the time' springs to mind. I follow the forum mainly but I do also do what I think is right, mostly guided by the vets at the practise I go to. There is very little research and even if there was research answers tend to be in the best interests of the body paying for the research.
Having had 3 piggies with stones in the past I can say diet is a worry for me. I have been told by more than one vet that genetics play a part. I have a genetic kidney disease that causes stones my self so I can believe that.

I totally agree.
I've seen a lot of vets (exotics) over the last few years. Here are some comments that have made me think.
"Nothing wrong with wheat, it's a bandwagon animal owners have jumped on, if non wheat food sells manufacturers will make it".
"Your two older boars could have such bad arthritis because their diet has been too low in calcium".
"You aren't feeding enough veg, the diet is too dry".
It seems to me you it's difficult to do right, the old saying 'you can't please all of the people all of the time' springs to mind. I follow the forum mainly but I do also do what I think is right, mostly guided by the vets at the practise I go to. There is very little research and even if there was research answers tend to be in the best interests of the body paying for the research.
Having had 3 piggies with stones in the past I can say diet is a worry for me. I have been told by more than one vet that genetics play a part. I have a genetic kidney disease that causes stones my self so I can believe that.

Couldn't agree more! Unfortunately guinea pigs remain such an under researched species (despite being used as subjects for research/trials in a lot of other areas)! I remember my vets saying that in the latest veterinary research updates they got (a huge book full), that there were only 2 lines about guinea pigs.