Parental Consent with Sick Guinea Pig (UTI)

[ISAAQqwes]

Hello,
My name is Theo. I’m going to talk about parental consent as part of responsible owners and the death of my Guinea pig as consequence. There is a lot to unpack here but would like to share my experience in hopes of educating future owners and those who might be in a similar situation. I also wanted to get some advice on what I should do, understanding I may have exhausted all of my options with trying to get my parents’ consent.
My Guinea pig Isabelle currently has a UTI to which the vets prescribed her with antibiotics. The vets told us we should come back within a weeks time regardless of her condition, to perform an X-ray and identify the cause of her UTI.
I have been completely honest with Isabelle’s situation to my parents, trying to tell them that she is in pain every time she pees or poos and producing pink urine which is something to not ignore. Their counter arguments are always “she’s running about, eating and drinking well so she must be happy.” I told them that Isabelle needs to go to the vets again to see what our options are. As they don’t recognise the extent of her situation, they say no.
Part of that reason is also the idea of surgery and how expensive it will be as well as the risks it might have in removing the problem (e.g- bladder stone, ovarian cyst.) Dad being a nurse is confident yet stubborn about surgery being performed on Isabelle, putting his feelings first before being logical or at least having a conversation. He does care for Isabelle, feeds her and cleans her space very well. When it comes to her health issue, I think he turns a blind eye to it; what is out of sight is out of mind. He gives her the medicine but that’s as far as he would go, because it is non-surgical. I also realise the risk it might have for a Guinea pig like Isabelle, being 5 years old, trying to explain to them that we can speak to the vets about other potential options and concerns we have for her.

Throughout Isabelle’s course of medication, I’ve been keeping an eye on her, seeing any developments in her condition and telling my parents about it, her wheeking in pain, etc. They always say “it’s normal for her old age to have complications. It just means it’s their time.” To me it sounds like they’re saying they’re ready for Isabelle to, quite frankly, die from her UTI which puts me as most responsible for getting her the attention she needs. I’m not ready for her to go yet and I don’t think she is aswell. She hasn’t shown signs of slowing down yet, but to my parents she is growing old just because she is age 5. I’ve told this many times over to them, but won’t come to an agreement.

Isabelle had a sister named Tata, who sadly passed away 3 months before contracting her UTI. She passed away too soon, I’m suspecting from a malocclusion, as she went from 900g from when I last weighed her (pre-uni) to 600g (when I went to visit for a week.) Before arriving home my mum dropped the “Tata is getting old” bomb, which scared me because there was something wrong with her that she wasn’t telling me. It had only come to my attention when I visited that Tata was in critical condition. Neither of my parents took note of her weight, thinking it was normal. I tried to get her to the vets with Dad, but were stubborn and adamant that she is happy and didn’t need to go to the vets. I gave them another chance, coming to an agreement that if she didn’t gain weight in the next days, she would need vet attention. The day after coming to that agreement, on Mother’s Day, she passed away so suddenly right in front of our eyes (the day I was about to go back to uni.) I was fully distraught and blamed myself for everything and didn’t fight hard enough for her.

After that happened, I wanted to give Isabelle to a shelter where I know she can have a better quality of life. It was my mistake that I would sort it out after finishing my year of uni, because she has now contracted her UTI. When we went to the vets, I told the nurse we were going to put her in a shelter but she said shelters only take healthy Guinea pigs. The odds were definitely stacked against us. I also asked my parents if we could foster another companion for Isabelle as a “support guinea pig” but they said no, because they didn’t want to be responsible for another life after Tata’s passing. It led to another argument as to why it was important for her as a herd animal. ~I’ve heard in rare occasions some older Guinea pigs are able to live their last years alone. I feel Isabelle is one of those, but I wanted to give it a shot as there’s many benefits for Isabelle being part of a duo.~

Our closest experienced vet is 25 minutes by car and only dad can drive, which would be the best and least stressful option for Isabelle. Public transport takes about an hour and it’s a bumpy ride at that. I don’t want her to be extremely stressed from both the journey and the vet visit, especially when she doesn’t have a companion to de-stress with. I can take an Uber or possibly ask my friend to drive me, but that would also be out of my parents’ consent.

If it meant that Isabelle could be better, should I ignore my parents’ consent even if it means disobeying them?

Another part of my parents’ worry is that I may be the cause to her dying faster, because I’m stressing her out further by checking on her constantly and seeing any of Isabelle’s developments (e.g- poo and pee colour/shape.) It makes me sad and kind of angry that they think of me as invasive to her health, when I am only wanting the best for her.

I have told them everything that the vets have told me, considering options for euthanasia and surgery, both being considered as cruel by my parents. I have and am constantly telling them about the benefits of these options as difficult as the choices are. They won’t listen or come to an agreement.

The vets have told us to go back in a weeks time, well now it has been a week and nothing has improved. I asked for her to go to the vets, yet my parents want to finish her course of medicine (2weeks.) Mum says I am too impatient because her course of medicine hasn’t finished yet. She also says the medicine will be fine and we don’t need to go to another vets trip, because she gets pain reliever (from the metacam.) I explained to her that it doesn’t take away Isabelle’s problem, it only softens it, barely at that as she is still wheeking.

I wanted to share this with the forum as a call for advice as I feel I have exhausted my options with my parents and unsure how to further continue seeking help for Isabelle. Thank you for reading if you have made it this far.

I’ve taken care of them for 2 years and it’s safe to say, I’m one proud piggie owner . I take pride in my care and know what is important to them, so handing over ownership to them I was always telling them off and constantly, till this day, showing them the ropes. It’s difficult because I’ve learned my parents don’t listen to what I say, no matter how many times I repeat them.

I love my piggies to bits (dead or alive) and I want to make everything right after Tata’s passing. My parents agreed with Isabelle to go to her first vet trip, after I noticed signs of a UTI. After I told them what the vets told me about a potential surgery, I think it scared them off having another vets visit because of the expenses. I told them money can be earned back but a life can’t. Also the vets are a basic care for any animal. Please don’t have a pet if you’re not prepared to take it to the vets.

I am willing to pay for Isabelle’s vet visit, it just means I might be a broke student. I’d rather my bank account be broke than my heart . Hopefully this wasn’t a frustrating read, as I certainly was reading back on it.
Anyone have any idea what to do if you were in my situation?

 

[ISAAQqwes]

P.S* I understand my profile pic looks a bit sus with the pet store cage. It was given to us with the piggies by the previous owners. Please be assured my Guinea pig(s) are free range in the conservatory hehe, occasionally outdoors for grass and indoors.

Please enjoy my cute compilation of Isabelle (Abyssinian) and Tata (Himalayan, I think)

 

[Princess Dustmop]

First, a UTI is far from a death sentence, so try to relax a bit. A UTI should usually resolve relatively quickly with antibiotic treatment. A x-ray will certainly give you more information, but it doesn't necessarily point to surgery. An ultrasound would be another diagnostic that could be helpful, and it would also indicate whether there is inflammation from the infection, something which would be nonsurgical ... The vet may also want to take another urine sample to check whether the antibiotic has the correct spectrum and is treating the infection well. In general, improvement should be evident within the first few days of treatment, though of course the course should always be finished even after improvement.
One of my girls had recurrent UTIs; it was improved when I switched her water ... I switched to bottled, but good filtered would be a start (the dogs switched to filtered around the same time because one of them had gotten a couple UTIs, and the switch fixed that, too). My girl still had periodic blood in her urine, sometimes a UTI and sometimes sterile ... they'd take samples to check. She never needed surgery, just treatment (usually Baytril).

The response to your parents' argument that she's running, eating, and drinking so must be happy is to remind them that guinea pigs are prey animals. They will continue to act relatively normally until they are extremely ill; this is because if they wouldn't want to alert predators in the wild. Hiding illness does not make a piggy okay; it's a survival technique.

I cannot tell you to betray your parents. It's really best if you can work with them to get your piggy care. I would make sure they know that they are not expected to provide anything more than a ride to the vet, and that all expenses will be your responsibility. Tell them that you really want to work with them and respect their opinions but also want to do what's right for your piggy.

It sounds like you are a very responsible pet owner, and you really are trying to do the best for Isabelle. I have great respect for you that you are willing to consider surrendering in order to get her a companion. Fostering was an excellent suggestion, but I can understand your parents point of view on not wanting to take on another guinea pig, even if it would be temporary. I'm sure losing Tata was not easy on them either. I cannot speak to whether shelters would only take on healthy guinea pigs, as I have not inquired about such things ... I know they'll only adopt out a piggy who's been cleared by a vet. You could ask the shelter proper about surrendering your piggy despite the UTI, as you have concern that she won't be able to get complete care in her current situation.

 

[ISAAQqwes]

First, a UTI is far from a death sentence, so try to relax a bit. A UTI should usually resolve relatively quickly with antibiotic treatment. A x-ray will certainly give you more information, but it doesn't necessarily point to surgery. An ultrasound would be another diagnostic that could be helpful, and it would also indicate whether there is inflammation from the infection, something which would be nonsurgical ... The vet may also want to take another urine sample to check whether the antibiotic has the correct spectrum and is treating the infection well. In general, improvement should be evident within the first few days of treatment, though of course the course should always be finished even after improvement.
One of my girls had recurrent UTIs; it was improved when I switched her water ... I switched to bottled, but good filtered would be a start (the dogs switched to filtered around the same time because one of them had gotten a couple UTIs, and the switch fixed that, too). My girl still had periodic blood in her urine, sometimes a UTI and sometimes sterile ... they'd take samples to check. She never needed surgery, just treatment (usually Baytril).

The response to your parents' argument that she's running, eating, and drinking so must be happy is to remind them that guinea pigs are prey animals. They will continue to act relatively normally until they are extremely ill; this is because if they wouldn't want to alert predators in the wild. Hiding illness does not make a piggy okay; it's a survival technique.

I cannot tell you to betray your parents. It's really best if you can work with them to get your piggy care. I would make sure they know that they are not expected to provide anything more than a ride to the vet, and that all expenses will be your responsibility. Tell them that you really want to work with them and respect their opinions but also want to do what's right for your piggy.

It sounds like you are a very responsible pet owner, and you really are trying to do the best for Isabelle. I have great respect for you that you are willing to consider surrendering in order to get her a companion. Fostering was an excellent suggestion, but I can understand your parents point of view on not wanting to take on another guinea pig, even if it would be temporary. I'm sure losing Tata was not easy on them either. I cannot speak to whether shelters would only take on healthy guinea pigs, as I have not inquired about such things ... I know they'll only adopt out a piggy who's been cleared by a vet. You could ask the shelter proper about surrendering your piggy despite the UTI, as you have concern that she won't be able to get complete care in her current situation.

Hello,
Thank you for your advice I really appreciate it. I’ll give another go and explain to them the things you said. Hopefully those news might make them more comfortable about getting Isabelle to the vets and making her better.

I’ll update on how it goes. Thank you!

 

[Freela]

I'm sorry you lost Tata and that Isabelle is under the weather. Unfortunately, I do think there is a mentality that some have that guinea pigs are not the kind of animals that get vet care, and that many die with treatable illnesses because they are chalked up to aging and people don't want to pay for vet care. It's actually the prevailing attitude where I am (Canada), very few small animals EVER get vet care and very few vets are equipped to give that care because the demand for it simply isn't there. I am literally the only person I know who has taken the small animals we have (hamsters and guinea pigs) to the vet.

I can't advise you what to do here, only you know your own family dynamics. I do have university-age kids (one is 20, one is 18), and as a parent I am really cognizant that they are now adults and need to be making their own decisions, my role as a parent of adult children is more an advisor than anything else. I know that's easier for some parents to do than others. Only you know the situation with your family and whether you'll be letting yourself in for some unpleasantness if you act independently here. Only you can really assess the situation for this one, I think.

I would definitely call rescues yourself and see if it's accurate that none will take on a pig with an existing health problem. I have heard of people surrendering pets specifically because they wanted them to get veterinary care that they themselves couldn't afford... your parents may have given up too soon in looking for a shelter that would take her. I understand that's probably not what you want to do in a perfect world, but I also know that you want her to get care and it can be hard to finance all that stuff in university.

Again, so sorry you're dealing with this. It can be really hard when parents and kids differ on these kinds of issues. Best wishes to you and Isabelle.

 

[ISAAQqwes]

I'm sorry you lost Tata and that Isabelle is under the weather. Unfortunately, I do think there is a mentality that some have that guinea pigs are not the kind of animals that get vet care, and that many die with treatable illnesses because they are chalked up to aging and people don't want to pay for vet care. It's actually the prevailing attitude where I am (Canada), very few small animals EVER get vet care and very few vets are equipped to give that care because the demand for it simply isn't there. I am literally the only person I know who has taken the small animals we have (hamsters and guinea pigs) to the vet.

I can't advise you what to do here, only you know your own family dynamics. I do have university-age kids (one is 20, one is 18), and as a parent I am really cognizant that they are now adults and need to be making their own decisions, my role as a parent of adult children is more an advisor than anything else. I know that's easier for some parents to do than others. Only you know the situation with your family and whether you'll be letting yourself in for some unpleasantness if you act independently here. Only you can really assess the situation for this one, I think.

I would definitely call rescues yourself and see if it's accurate that none will take on a pig with an existing health problem. I have heard of people surrendering pets specifically because they wanted them to get veterinary care that they themselves couldn't afford... your parents may have given up too soon in looking for a shelter that would take her. I understand that's probably not what you want to do in a perfect world, but I also know that you want her to get care and it can be hard to finance all that stuff in university.

Again, so sorry you're dealing with this. It can be really hard when parents and kids differ on these kinds of issues. Best wishes to you and Isabelle.

Hello, thank you for your advice and being understandable about everything. It’s great to hear from a parent’s perspective that what I’m trying to do for Isabelle is a good thing. Sometimes they make me feel like I’m doing something wrong by getting her to the vets which feels quite ironic. This definitely feels like a thing I might have to do for her sake; I feel I’m old enough to do something about it. I’ll call the shelters again to see if they can, fingers crossed .

Also good news! I spoke to my dad earlier and says that I can take her to the vets as long as he’s not involved. So I would interpret that as a green light lol.
Thank you again for the best wishes, I really appreciate the advice you have given. It’s helped collect a lot of the thoughts I’ve been having.

 

[Free Ranger]

I don't know whether you are in the UK but I'll assume you are for the purposes of this answer. Other countries - things can be a bit different. Big post alert! But as you're home from uni you'll have time to read it

When we look at a piggy with UTI symptoms - red-tinge in pee, pain while peeing or pooping, wet bottom end from dripping pee, maybe some weight loss or fur shedding - there are a few common causes that pop up time and again. These are bacterial infection (UTI), a calcium stone or 'sludge' in the bladder or urethra, or something called Sterile Interstitial Cystitis (SIC). We've had pigs with just UTI or pigs that have had UTI and also a stone. Personally we've not had the SIC, thank goodness. This is something that is not common but seems to appear more and more on here and is thought to be triggered by stress. Most pigs get stressed by almost anything! It's their nature - but most don't get SIC. There's not a 'test' for it but you tend to get a diagnosis when everything else has been excluded. You get flare-ups of cystitis symptoms just like UTI but no bacteria are involved. It's just avoiding triggers and then managing flare-ups when they occur. There can also be more unusual causes - more serious types of thing. With the sows there is also the chance that there could be an issue with the reproductive tract but that's for the vet to decide - and UTIs are not unusual in piggies.

My vet will check over my pig and look at all the symptoms. Sometimes they want a urine sample to test but usually if they see the wet bottom and red tinged pee they treat first for bacterial infection. We usually get an antibiotic (AB) called Baytril which is very commonly given to pigs and is a good 'workhorse'... but there can be resistance sometimes because it has been so widely used for so long. I'm not a nurse but I did used to be a microbiologist so I know a bit about resistance. The dose of antibiotic will be given according to bodyweight and what they are aiming to treat - sometimes you get a 7 or 10 day course, sometimes a shorter course at a higher dose, sometimes longer. It will actually vary from vet to vet usually according to their own experience. So if piggy has a bacterial urinary infection a few things could happen. If the antibiotic works you should see improvement within the first few days. You always complete the course but you should see improvement pretty quickly. The AB will start to kill the bacteria straight off but it takes time to get the numbers down and for the body to fight back. Usually we see improvement in a few days but complete the course and everything is fine. On one occasion a few days after the course had finished the symptoms returned. My vet gave the same antibiotic again (because it had actually worked) but just for a longer time. My pig was not adversely affected by the dose (some can get put off their food) and it was the same pattern: symptoms go within a day or two but complete the longer course anyway and this time they didn't come back. But on one occasion there was no change at all after 72 hours (3 days) and I rang the vet and reported this. They quickly arranged for me to collect an alternative antibiotic to replace the Baytril. We were lucky - the problem had been resistance and the second antibiotic worked so within a day or two we saw improvement.

The vet would always like to do an x-ray to look for stones. Pigs are very prone to stones as they absorb all the calcium they ingest (in food or water - that's why the forum recommends filtering water etc) then they pee out the excess. This is different to people - we just absorb the calcium we need and poop out the excess. But then again our teeth aren't growing all the time so we have evolved differently! For us sometimes the x-ray has been clear because it was a simple UTI. Sometimes x-ray has showed a stone or sludge: but this does not always mean surgery. Girls can pass these on their own or with a bit of assistance. One of my girls had a big bad one stuck in the urethra (the tube they pee out of) and the vet actually removed it with tweasers. She could feel it, never mind an x-ray! Not nice! But better than an Op as no general anaesthetic. Another passed one on her own out of the blue and so we took her in to be checked over and have a follow-up x-ray. They saw either another stone or some sludge at the exit from the bladder. They gave my girl an injection of opioid and then they injected a huge amount of fluid just under her skin on the shoulders - like 10 or 15 ml or something. She was totally stoned (it was actually upsetting to see her just rocking and not eating) but she peed like a tap and after a few hours she was back to normal. Next x-ray: totally clear. The only pig I put in for bladder surgery was a lovely big boar with a great big bladder stone that the vet said he had no chance to pass. They gave me the option of the surgery or putting him to sleep as he was in a deal of pain. We were able to give him a chance, but sadly he passed away shortly after arriving back home - it had just been too much for him. I had been warned about this - they were very honest. But I suppose what I'm saying is you always have options. You can have the x-ray and if they recommend surgery you can refuse. Sometimes it would just mean weighing up her quality of life so far with what might be coming. Some people literally can't afford it - some can but choose not to - the vet can advise. One of my vets had her own boar who was too old for surgery and he lived out his life on painkiller while he was content and when he deteriorated her plan was pts. But if they're old they might go of something else first anyway! I'm wondering if your parents are thinking "No surgery so what's the point" but there are options. And that x-ray might be totally clear. The only thing is you should ask the price of an x-ray and whether they can do it consciously. My vet just wraps piggy in a towel and takes the shot before they wriggle free. Some people have had piggy sitting in a little box - it's what your vet is able to do. Some vets will use "a whiff of gas" but some might talk about proper general anaesthetic which is a risk in itself. I would not want to GA a piggy for a stone x-ray myself but you might not get a choice. To give you some idea, at my vet it's between £40 and £50 for a consult and about another £50 ish for an x-ray. The receptionist at the vet will be able to give you more idea about pricing over the phone to help you decide. If you are in the UK it can vary quite a bit so find out first. And don't go out-of-hours if not an emergency as it's usually a lot more expensive.

So as to your situation (parents aside) it's a bit complicated. You have two weeks of antibiotics but if you are more than 3 or 4 days in and haven't seen significant improvement in her symptoms I would be thinking (1) a UTI with antibiotic resistant bacteria - contact vet at this point, or (2) symptoms caused by more than UTI - perhaps stone or SIC - I would still contact the vet. If it's been a week already and they told you to go back this is probably why. They can have more than one thing! Metacam helps (as long as they've given you enough) but won't cure them. Your pigs are getting on it's true - just like people do - but I don't know a human doctor who would treat a UTI in a teenager but ignore it in a pensioner because "they're getting old". My George is 5 1/2 and living his best life on daily metacam and glucosamine arthritis/bladder supplements and some pigs do go on till 6,7,8 etc with a bit of tlc.

Finally, I'm now a grown-up myself with a compassionate lad about your age. And believe it or not I was once that age myself! As an adult I've kept pigs for about 10 years. But we had a pair when I was young. One girl lived till 5 but we lost one at about 3 and 1/2. She was looking unwell and then she went one day while we were at school. For years my mum thought nothing of it - pets do die - she felt sad bit that was it. And I felt the same because we had a lot of pets and eventually they all go. But when I started keeping pigs myself and took them to the vet when they were ill she was a bit shocked. It had never occurred to her to do that for a guinea pig (except for when they got the mange - then she was worried we'd catch it!) And now when she remembers our first two it makes her feel guilty. Because as soon as I realised that going to the PDSA (the only vet we could afford then) for a simple course of meds might have saved our first girl, and prevented the loneliness Snowy must have felt in her remaining years, of course I took mine to the vet. Of course. And my poor old mum - she can't undo the past and I don't blame her at all, but she does blame herself ever so much. Your girls have been lucky to have you for however long and your parents are lucky to have such a guy with so much empathy. Good luck mate x

 

[ISAAQqwes]

I don't know whether you are in the UK but I'll assume you are for the purposes of this answer. Other countries - things can be a bit different. Big post alert! But as you're home from uni you'll have time to read it

When we look at a piggy with UTI symptoms - red-tinge in pee, pain while peeing or pooping, wet bottom end from dripping pee, maybe some weight loss or fur shedding - there are a few common causes that pop up time and again. These are bacterial infection (UTI), a calcium stone or 'sludge' in the bladder or urethra, or something called Sterile Interstitial Cystitis (SIC). We've had pigs with just UTI or pigs that have had UTI and also a stone. Personally we've not had the SIC, thank goodness. This is something that is not common but seems to appear more and more on here and is thought to be triggered by stress. Most pigs get stressed by almost anything! It's their nature - but most don't get SIC. There's not a 'test' for it but you tend to get a diagnosis when everything else has been excluded. You get flare-ups of cystitis symptoms just like UTI but no bacteria are involved. It's just avoiding triggers and then managing flare-ups when they occur. There can also be more unusual causes - more serious types of thing. With the sows there is also the chance that there could be an issue with the reproductive tract but that's for the vet to decide - and UTIs are not unusual in piggies.

My vet will check over my pig and look at all the symptoms. Sometimes they want a urine sample to test but usually if they see the wet bottom and red tinged pee they treat first for bacterial infection. We usually get an antibiotic (AB) called Baytril which is very commonly given to pigs and is a good 'workhorse'... but there can be resistance sometimes because it has been so widely used for so long. I'm not a nurse but I did used to be a microbiologist so I know a bit about resistance. The dose of antibiotic will be given according to bodyweight and what they are aiming to treat - sometimes you get a 7 or 10 day course, sometimes a shorter course at a higher dose, sometimes longer. It will actually vary from vet to vet usually according to their own experience. So if piggy has a bacterial urinary infection a few things could happen. If the antibiotic works you should see improvement within the first few days. You always complete the course but you should see improvement pretty quickly. The AB will start to kill the bacteria straight off but it takes time to get the numbers down and for the body to fight back. Usually we see improvement in a few days but complete the course and everything is fine. On one occasion a few days after the course had finished the symptoms returned. My vet gave the same antibiotic again (because it had actually worked) but just for a longer time. My pig was not adversely affected by the dose (some can get put off their food) and it was the same pattern: symptoms go within a day or two but complete the longer course anyway and this time they didn't come back. But on one occasion there was no change at all after 72 hours (3 days) and I rang the vet and reported this. They quickly arranged for me to collect an alternative antibiotic to replace the Baytril. We were lucky - the problem had been resistance and the second antibiotic worked so within a day or two we saw improvement.

The vet would always like to do an x-ray to look for stones. Pigs are very prone to stones as they absorb all the calcium they ingest (in food or water - that's why the forum recommends filtering water etc) then they pee out the excess. This is different to people - we just absorb the calcium we need and poop out the excess. But then again our teeth aren't growing all the time so we have evolved differently! For us sometimes the x-ray has been clear because it was a simple UTI. Sometimes x-ray has showed a stone or sludge: but this does not always mean surgery. Girls can pass these on their own or with a bit of assistance. One of my girls had a big bad one stuck in the urethra (the tube they pee out of) and the vet actually removed it with tweasers. She could feel it, never mind an x-ray! Not nice! But better than an Op as no general anaesthetic. Another passed one on her own out of the blue and so we took her in to be checked over and have a follow-up x-ray. They saw either another stone or some sludge at the exit from the bladder. They gave my girl an injection of opioid and then they injected a huge amount of fluid just under her skin on the shoulders - like 10 or 15 ml or something. She was totally stoned (it was actually upsetting to see her just rocking and not eating) but she peed like a tap and after a few hours she was back to normal. Next x-ray: totally clear. The only pig I put in for bladder surgery was a lovely big boar with a great big bladder stone that the vet said he had no chance to pass. They gave me the option of the surgery or putting him to sleep as he was in a deal of pain. We were able to give him a chance, but sadly he passed away shortly after arriving back home - it had just been too much for him. I had been warned about this - they were very honest. But I suppose what I'm saying is you always have options. You can have the x-ray and if they recommend surgery you can refuse. Sometimes it would just mean weighing up her quality of life so far with what might be coming. Some people literally can't afford it - some can but choose not to - the vet can advise. One of my vets had her own boar who was too old for surgery and he lived out his life on painkiller while he was content and when he deteriorated her plan was pts. But if they're old they might go of something else first anyway! I'm wondering if your parents are thinking "No surgery so what's the point" but there are options. And that x-ray might be totally clear. The only thing is you should ask the price of an x-ray and whether they can do it consciously. My vet just wraps piggy in a towel and takes the shot before they wriggle free. Some people have had piggy sitting in a little box - it's what your vet is able to do. Some vets will use "a whiff of gas" but some might talk about proper general anaesthetic which is a risk in itself. I would not want to GA a piggy for a stone x-ray myself but you might not get a choice. To give you some idea, at my vet it's between £40 and £50 for a consult and about another £50 ish for an x-ray. The receptionist at the vet will be able to give you more idea about pricing over the phone to help you decide. If you are in the UK it can vary quite a bit so find out first. And don't go out-of-hours if not an emergency as it's usually a lot more expensive.

So as to your situation (parents aside) it's a bit complicated. You have two weeks of antibiotics but if you are more than 3 or 4 days in and haven't seen significant improvement in her symptoms I would be thinking (1) a UTI with antibiotic resistant bacteria - contact vet at this point, or (2) symptoms caused by more than UTI - perhaps stone or SIC - I would still contact the vet. If it's been a week already and they told you to go back this is probably why. They can have more than one thing! Metacam helps (as long as they've given you enough) but won't cure them. Your pigs are getting on it's true - just like people do - but I don't know a human doctor who would treat a UTI in a teenager but ignore it in a pensioner because "they're getting old". My George is 5 1/2 and living his best life on daily metacam and glucosamine arthritis/bladder supplements and some pigs do go on till 6,7,8 etc with a bit of tlc.

Finally, I'm now a grown-up myself with a compassionate lad about your age. And believe it or not I was once that age myself! As an adult I've kept pigs for about 10 years. But we had a pair when I was young. One girl lived till 5 but we lost one at about 3 and 1/2. She was looking unwell and then she went one day while we were at school. For years my mum thought nothing of it - pets do die - she felt sad bit that was it. And I felt the same because we had a lot of pets and eventually they all go. But when I started keeping pigs myself and took them to the vet when they were ill she was a bit shocked. It had never occurred to her to do that for a guinea pig (except for when they got the mange - then she was worried we'd catch it!) And now when she remembers our first two it makes her feel guilty. Because as soon as I realised that going to the PDSA (the only vet we could afford then) for a simple course of meds might have saved our first girl, and prevented the loneliness Snowy must have felt in her remaining years, of course I took mine to the vet. Of course. And my poor old mum - she can't undo the past and I don't blame her at all, but she does blame herself ever so much. Your girls have been lucky to have you for however long and your parents are lucky to have such a guy with so much empathy. Good luck mate x

Hiya, thank you for your response, it’s quite hard looking back at things we could’ve done differently. I think despite how hard it must’ve been, there’s always a lesson to be learnt. I think my mum is the same as well, she wouldn’t ever think for Isabelle to go to the vets.
LUCKILY! I was able to go to the vets yesterday to get her X-ray. I went to the one in Durham and took care of her rlly well, although they did ask if they could give her anaesthetic because she might move around and obviously can’t see her belly, unless ultrasound but that would be painful for her. I gave them the heads up and the results we got were pretty bad news.
It was something I was preparing myself for and quite difficult decision to make. They found out she has a predominant bladder stone and a calcified liver, as well as small ovarian cysts which weren’t the cause of the problem. The specialist talked me through the options of surgery and putting her to sleep. For the surgery, they requested a blood test which the blood needs to be drawn close to the heart; this was to continue with the surgery, checking Isabelle doesn’t have liver failure. It has its own risks on top of the other risks which we might face during op and post op. The specialist said that with Isabelle’s age (5) her situation being multimodal, there’s potential that a secondary stone could occur and would have to continually have checks for her. I didn’t really want to put her through all of that stress, just for another likelihood that another might appear. It seems to me that the odds of risks were against her. So I told them I was comfortable with putting her to sleep after talking through the other options.
The specialist said that “normally, we would have the piggie pass it on its own, however it’s quite big that she might not.” The calcified liver apparently also makes the stone even bigger as deposits from the liver are carried into the tube of the bladder. She said to speak to my family members about it and see what our next steps are.

I spoke to my mum and dad about it, obviously didn’t take it well which is understandable. Context: I went to the vets on my own understanding I have to put Isabelle as a priority and facing the consequences after. I told them the options we have for Isabelle and agreed that putting her through surgery will most likely stress her out especially it being quite a long process.
When discussing the option of putting her to sleep, I was comfortable with that knowing we can’t take the risk of treating her condition. My mum on the other hand, she was adamant that Isabelle live out the rest of her days as she thinks she is getting better with the medication (after I just told her she is in pain from her bladder stone and calcified liver.) She understood that Isabelle will be living her life in pain yet still didn’t want to put her to sleep. Her opinions with euthanasia is very clear that she doesn’t like it, that it’s cruel, facing another obstacle that puts Isabelle’s quality of life between us.

So this morning, I wanted to ring the vets to see if there were other options regarding non-surgical procedures as that is the only way I can truly see her problem being solved. I will be speaking to the specialist again on Friday which is not the best timeframe, but better sooner than later.
I’m unsure as to how I would deal with this situation as it’s important for us to cooperate and come to an agreement together. It’s definitely not the most ideal situation, but I’m trying to be understandable with my parents.
I remember the specialist recommending to monitor her pain in this case where euthanasia may not be an option. However, with the painkillers we are giving her (metacam) she is still vocalising her pain. It really surprises and frustrates me the reaction my mum has with this situation. It’s difficult to meet in the middle.
Would it be considered animal abuse to let Isabelle live out the rest of her life with the bladder stone? I posed the same question to my mum and questions me how is it abuse. Maybe I don’t see it but I would love to learn more.

Thank you again, I appreciate everyone’s support and blessing for Isabelle. I can never say thank you enough Although, I did forget to say thank you to the specialist who took care of Isabelle I will always be grateful.

Also it was fun cos I got to meet another owner with 6 Guinea pigs, her little one was also facing its own bladder stone problem so fingers crossed for her! Our conversation was cut short as Isabelle had to be seen by the nurse. They were also quite understandable and sweet, I also loved seeing the other animals there anyway . One day I might have a herd of guineapigs of my own.
Update on Isabelle currently, she is acting normal. Monitoring her more often now after she had the anaesthetic. Hopefully she continues to do well. I love her so much

 

[Free Ranger]

It really is a tricky one. It is hard to see them in pain and it can be wearing for them too. I would be worried about putting a piggy of that age through an operation. Money is also a factor - although it helps your heart if it doesn't have to be money that makes the decision for you. But vets do understand this. Of course there is a chance that Isabelle will come through and recover. But there is also a chance that she will (1) pass during the surgery, (2) get through but not be able to recover from the general anaesthetic after, (3) pass in the few days after the surgery, (4) recover but develop another stone again later. And even a successful recovery from an operation will not be painless. Sometimes there seems to be no right answer as a piggy in pain after surgery doesn't realise that sacrifice is short term to try and help them - pigs don't understand about modern medicine they just know they have woken up and are in pain. Euthanasia can sometimes be the kindest choice - certainly kinder than watching them suffer on and on with no hope of improvement (if you've seen an animal in enough misery you quickly realise this - but I hope your mum has been lucky and has not witnessed such a thing). It's just getting the timing right for piggy and knowing if she's doing OK or if she's had enough. A 'natural' death is not always a peaceful one. Piggies also don't count how long they been alive - they live in terms of 'happy todays' so while Isabelle is happy she's OK, but if every day is misery it's not a kindness to prolong it. Vets have to euthanise a lot of animals as part of their job, but they train to do it within strict rules and as humanely as possible. Vets love animals - that's why they're in the job. And sometimes part of that loving care is helping them on their way at the end. It is an awful thing to have to think seriously about but it's just part of pet ownership and many, many people on this forum will have faced the same. We have a guide which you may have already found A Practical and Sensitive Guide to Dying, Terminal Illness and Euthanasia in Guinea Pigs

Is she on a good amount of painkiller for now? If she starts to lose weight - being unable to eat comfortably because of the pain - you may have to reconsider. Start to weigh her more often than once per week - try and avoid putting pressure on the bladder as you lift her though. If she can exist comfortably at least for now with good pain relief it's perhaps not her time yet. If she starts to deteriorate you can think about taking her in. Make sure she keeps peeing because a blocked bladder is painful and distressing for them - but if the stone is so large she has no chance to pass it that shouldn't be so much of a worry that it gets stuck. Incidentally we've just had this with my old boy - we had no sign of anything wrong at all then one night his bladder was suddenly almost completely blocked and the swelling on his lower tummy of that over-full bladder was the size of a conker - it was really obvious. Luckily it went down over a few hours so I knew he could still pee a little past whatever obstruction he had. We think his stone (and yes, it was a big one) had actually formed in the urethra over time. It caused him no symptoms until the last few weeks, then it suddenly appeared as a lump that night and the vet literally squeezed it out the next day. He had a narrow escape - and is still being monitored. He will be x-rayed in a few days.

It helps to be prepared practically in advance because if the worst happens you will be in pieces emotionally and sometimes it's hard to think. You can contact your veterinary practice now and ask about the price and the process for piggy euthanasia in advance: also for example if she takes a sudden turn for the worse at the weekend or late at night would there be an extra charge for out of hours or would it be the same price. The uncertainty is very difficult - she could pootle on for a year or more with good pain relief, or she could take a sudden turn for the worse on a Sunday night before bank holiday Monday. Or when you are away at uni again.

I should just ask - did they establish whether there was also a UTI? If some of her pain when peeing is due to inflammation from infection she could at least be helped with effective antibiotics. And how much metacam is she on, and what is the concentration, and once or twice per day?

We'll be thinking about you.

 

[Swissgreys]

I can not even imagine how difficult this must be.
It is so hard when two (or more) people involved in the care of a pet have differing opinions on what is an appropriate method of treatment.

Having dealt with bladder stones in guinea pigs before what I would say is that their heath can deteriorate very quickly, particulary if the stone moves and causes a blockage or gets stuck. Literally within hours they can go from being ok, to being in excruciating pain and near death.

I fully understand you not choosing the surgical option, but in this case it is highly likely that euthanasia will eventually be necessary.
Sadly, whilst many of us envision our pets passing naturally at home in a peaceful way, the reality is rarely like this.
Have you asked your Mum what she envisions for Isabelle as an acceptable and humane end of life?
Have you explained (as gently as possible) that without medical intervention she may end up suffering for hours or even days?
Guinea pigs often hide their pain well - for example when our guinea pig had a fully blocked bladder due to sludge and stones on the way to the vet she actually started to eat a piece of cucumber we had put in her carrier.
At this point I questioned if I had over reacted to her slightly listless behaviour, by calling the emergency vet and asking to be seen out of hours. At this point the only real outward sign was that she wasn't moving around much and was disinterred in food. Honestly I thought she might have an infection or something, as she was definitely not ok, but not seriously ill either.
When we arrived at the vet, she quickly identified a bladder problem and when she pressed gently on her tummy sludge, blood and some small stones came out and it was clearly a very serious situation which would have resulted in a painful death if left for much longer. She was taken immediately into surgery and it took her several weeks to recover.

I am only relaying this story to illustrate that even when they appear ok, they are often unwell and in pain.
They have no way to let us know, and in fact will do everything possible to hide this.
Is your Mum aware of this?

I wish you luck with whatever path you choose, and well done for having her seen by the vet - I know this was a difficult step.

 

[ISAAQqwes]

I can not even imagine how difficult this must be.
It is so hard when two (or more) people involved in the care of a pet have differing opinions on what is an appropriate method of treatment.

Having dealt with bladder stones in guinea pigs before what I would say is that their heath can deteriorate very quickly, particulary if the stone moves and causes a blockage or gets stuck. Literally within hours they can go from being ok, to being in excruciating pain and near death.

I fully understand you not choosing the surgical option, but in this case it is highly likely that euthanasia will eventually be necessary.
Sadly, whilst many of us envision our pets passing naturally at home in a peaceful way, the reality is rarely like this.
Have you asked your Mum what she envisions for Isabelle as an acceptable and humane end of life?
Have you explained (as gently as possible) that without medical intervention she may end up suffering for hours or even days?
Guinea pigs often hide their pain well - for example when our guinea pig had a fully blocked bladder due to sludge and stones on the way to the vet she actually started to eat a piece of cucumber we had put in her carrier.
At this point I questioned if I had over reacted to her slightly listless behaviour, by calling the emergency vet and asking to be seen out of hours. At this point the only real outward sign was that she wasn't moving around much and was disinterred in food. Honestly I thought she might have an infection or something, as she was definitely not ok, but not seriously ill either.
When we arrived at the vet, she quickly identified a bladder problem and when she pressed gently on her tummy sludge, blood and some small stones came out and it was clearly a very serious situation which would have resulted in a painful death if left for much longer. She was taken immediately into surgery and it took her several weeks to recover.

I am only relaying this story to illustrate that even when they appear ok, they are often unwell and in pain.
They have no way to let us know, and in fact will do everything possible to hide this.
Is your Mum aware of this?

I wish you luck with whatever path you choose, and well done for having her seen by the vet - I know this was a difficult step.

Hello, thank you for helping me with explaining to my mum. It had been since this started that I have tried explaining to them. Isabelle went into our living room today to explore and obviously can’t control her bladder. She began to poo and urinate in the living room, which is okay cos we love her , however the wheeking sounded more painful and long than she has ever sounded. This happened in front of my parents and I was there with them to say that she is in so much pain when she does that. It was kind of heartbreaking and quite sad, yet my mum still says that “everyone is in pain, doesn’t mean they have to die.”
It is very frustrating especially because I want everyone to have the closure they deserve, which involves my mum agreeing to go to the vets together.
I had a call from the vet specialist and said that palliative care should be in action for her already, which is making her pain as comfortable as possible with metacam and antibiotics. I asked if water can help dissolve the stone and she said that it doesn’t. When Isabelle starts to show signs of not eating and drinking, it is best for her that she be put to sleep.
If only it was easy to give Isabelle her medicine, she doesn’t like it when I pick her up. I try to be careful with her abdomen and sides as that is where it hurts most. Explaining to my mum that piggies hide their symptoms, she only sees that she is active and walking, fully understanding that there is a stone that is hurting her inside. I am trying my best and communicating with them about this, so when the right time comes it will be easier for us and Isabelle.
Hopefully I will update with good news, so far I think this is what we are going to do. Thank you again for your advice

 

[ISAAQqwes]

It really is a tricky one. It is hard to see them in pain and it can be wearing for them too. I would be worried about putting a piggy of that age through an operation. Money is also a factor - although it helps your heart if it doesn't have to be money that makes the decision for you. But vets do understand this. Of course there is a chance that Isabelle will come through and recover. But there is also a chance that she will (1) pass during the surgery, (2) get through but not be able to recover from the general anaesthetic after, (3) pass in the few days after the surgery, (4) recover but develop another stone again later. And even a successful recovery from an operation will not be painless. Sometimes there seems to be no right answer as a piggy in pain after surgery doesn't realise that sacrifice is short term to try and help them - pigs don't understand about modern medicine they just know they have woken up and are in pain. Euthanasia can sometimes be the kindest choice - certainly kinder than watching them suffer on and on with no hope of improvement (if you've seen an animal in enough misery you quickly realise this - but I hope your mum has been lucky and has not witnessed such a thing). It's just getting the timing right for piggy and knowing if she's doing OK or if she's had enough. A 'natural' death is not always a peaceful one. Piggies also don't count how long they been alive - they live in terms of 'happy todays' so while Isabelle is happy she's OK, but if every day is misery it's not a kindness to prolong it. Vets have to euthanise a lot of animals as part of their job, but they train to do it within strict rules and as humanely as possible. Vets love animals - that's why they're in the job. And sometimes part of that loving care is helping them on their way at the end. It is an awful thing to have to think seriously about but it's just part of pet ownership and many, many people on this forum will have faced the same. We have a guide which you may have already found A Practical and Sensitive Guide to Dying, Terminal Illness and Euthanasia in Guinea Pigs

Is she on a good amount of painkiller for now? If she starts to lose weight - being unable to eat comfortably because of the pain - you may have to reconsider. Start to weigh her more often than once per week - try and avoid putting pressure on the bladder as you lift her though. If she can exist comfortably at least for now with good pain relief it's perhaps not her time yet. If she starts to deteriorate you can think about taking her in. Make sure she keeps peeing because a blocked bladder is painful and distressing for them - but if the stone is so large she has no chance to pass it that shouldn't be so much of a worry that it gets stuck. Incidentally we've just had this with my old boy - we had no sign of anything wrong at all then one night his bladder was suddenly almost completely blocked and the swelling on his lower tummy of that over-full bladder was the size of a conker - it was really obvious. Luckily it went down over a few hours so I knew he could still pee a little past whatever obstruction he had. We think his stone (and yes, it was a big one) had actually formed in the urethra over time. It caused him no symptoms until the last few weeks, then it suddenly appeared as a lump that night and the vet literally squeezed it out the next day. He had a narrow escape - and is still being monitored. He will be x-rayed in a few days.

It helps to be prepared practically in advance because if the worst happens you will be in pieces emotionally and sometimes it's hard to think. You can contact your veterinary practice now and ask about the price and the process for piggy euthanasia in advance: also for example if she takes a sudden turn for the worse at the weekend or late at night would there be an extra charge for out of hours or would it be the same price. The uncertainty is very difficult - she could pootle on for a year or more with good pain relief, or she could take a sudden turn for the worse on a Sunday night before bank holiday Monday. Or when you are away at uni again.

I should just ask - did they establish whether there was also a UTI? If some of her pain when peeing is due to inflammation from infection she could at least be helped with effective antibiotics. And how much metacam is she on, and what is the concentration, and once or twice per day?

We'll be thinking about you.

Hello! I’m glad to hear that your piggie had a narrow escape, he truly is lucky . I think the UTI was already established before the X-ray, because the specialist did say that the cause for her bleeding was the bladder stone. I had a phone call with her today and she said that she doesnt show bleeding at this stage, although the bladder stone is still hurting her inside. Her sulfatrim is 0.2ml and Metacam is 0.1ml, twice a day. She’s been going at it for 2 weeks+ now.
The specialist also said surgery would be an unlikely option as the wait between finding out and when it developed had been too long, that her survivability has decreased and will continue to decrease with the wait.
She did say to continue with the prescription, I’m just unsure if it’s helping her be comfortable as I’m picking her up so often everyday. Her poos have also been mishapen, possibly from the medicine, so I gave her probiotics after a few hours of giving the medicine to her. That seemed to help a little bit, but still quite soft.

 

[Princess Dustmop]

I know when we had a diabetic guinea pig, she used to get her medication while remaining in her cage ... she loved the stuff and would just take the syringe through the bars (and sometimes steal the syringe and show it off like a prize). Metacam, as I understand, is supposed to be very well liked by piggies, you could try giving her that without picking her up and see if she'll take it. I doubt that'll work for antibiotics, though; they're usually somewhat bitter. If she's still in noticeable pain, you could see if the vet will prescribe her a higher dose of the metacam ...

I will say that all guinea pigs only have so much restraint in terms of pooing and piddling on the floor ... some less than others, so that's not necessarily indicative of anything, just the pain. (I always have paper towels on hand during piggy floor time to clean up puddles, though one piggy definitely piddles on the floor more than the other, and poo is practically guaranteed from one of my girls ... the other one seems to wait unless she's out a while.)

 

[Free Ranger]

I think you can speak to your vet about increasing her pain medicine but it could get complicated. There are 2 strengths of metacam in the UK - 0.5mg/ml (cat type) and 1.5mg/ml (dog type). Both used to be unlicensed for pigs so we generally got dog-type but now the weaker one is also licensed for pigs so some vets will insist on prescribing only that unless they have been practicing for a few years and may be prepared for you to sign a release form to get the unlicensed dog-type. We cannot tell you what to give on this forum of course, but for an example my boy has a bit of arthritis in his knees and he is on 1.5mg/ml and he has 4 'dog units' (it's a weird syringe) twice a day which works out to between 0.2 and 0.3ml twice a day (even taking the smaller dose of 0.2ml if it was cat type the equivalent would need to be 0.6ml twice a day!)
When I have had bladder stone pigs the dose has gone higher - the pain is very sharp. It does not take the pain away completely but it does help. If you have cat type at 0.1ml twice a day your pain medicine is very low. Even dog-type she is on less than half of what George is on. You can ask your vet to look at higher doses to try and bring her some relief. Twice a day is good as pigs burn through it faster than cats or dogs. And for comparison the 'dog units' on George's strange syringe are actually 'per kilo dog' units so he is on the same daily dose as an 8 kilo dog and has been for at least a year and is fine - he is vet checked every 3 months (which is why the stone really surprised us all). If Isabelle is approaching the end of her life what harm can it do…