Ongoing bladder stone/sludge issues in senior pigs

[deepseascale]

Hi all,

My girls are 6.5yrs old and have both had issues with bladder stones/sludge. Most recently Winnie had a large stone (about the size of a 5p!) removed via surgery at the end of July. They did x-rays at the time and didn't find any more, but the sludge problem is recurring in both of them.

I've got them on Sherwood Urinary Support tablets, I'm limiting their veggies to pretty much just cucumber and peppers, and they get timothy hay. I'm down south so their water is filtered as well. Evie has had potassium citrate in the past and I've got a bit of that left which I could use? I'm not sure what else I can do. They don't seem to be in pain (yet) but since the surgery my insurance no longer covers anything bladder/teeth/eye related and my premiums went up so I cancelled it. I'd really like to avoid any more surgeries due to cost and their age, apart from this issue and slowing down a little with age they're in good health.

I'm at a bit of a loss here so any advice is much appreciated.

 

[Piggies&buns]

Welcome to the forum and I’m sorry to hear of their issues.

It’s good you filter their water, do they eat pellets? Pellets and water contribute most calcium to the diet so ensuring filtered water and that pellets are limited are the main steps to take.
It is important to note that cutting too much out and going too low with calcium can cause as many issues as being too high calcium intake - it can still lead to bladder problems - calcium intake balance is still wrong but just in other direction.

Do they drink well? Good fluid intake will help keep the bladder flushing through and help remove sludge. If they are not good drinkers and you’ve cut veg down then there perhaps isn’t enough fluid going in to keep good bladder flushing. If they don’t eat pellets then you can be a bit more free with their veg intake. A good amount of veg is also a boost to fluid intake.

 

[deepseascale]

Thanks for your quick reply! I've lurked on here for ages but never needed to post till now.

I forgot to mention, we've been pellet free for a year or so now, that was one of the first things I cut out. They've also both been spayed, I'm not sure if that's relevant at all.

I'm not sure what a good amount of water is, but they get through about 150mls between the two of them a day, plus veggies. While I am limiting which veg they get, they get about the same amount total as they always have. But I could certainly offer more to try and up their water intake, especially as cucumber is their favourite.

 

[Piggies&buns]

As they don’t have pellets and water is filtered, and are only eating cucumber and peppers, it is possible - I can’t say for certain though - that calcium intake has gone low. As I say ,too low is as likely to cause sludge/stone formation as too high calcium, knocking the balance still the wrong way. There is a point where things are nicely balanced but it has to be found for each area.

Without pellets being given there is more flexibility in veg intake - not necessarily quantity but variety. Lettuce and coriander for example are both safe to be fed daily. Even higher calcium veggies might be able to be added given there is a little other calcium going in by the fact they don’t get pellets.

 

[pinklemoncactus]

The best advice I had from my vet to combat bladder sludge was to keep my Guinea pigs moving every day, having them run around to mix up the sludge in their bladder like in a washing machine. When my older lady suffered quite badly with sludge, this really seemed to help her and we don’t suffer with it anymore. Sometime I would have to encourage the running around (which you feel a bit bad!) but it worked for us to prevent the buildup. The vet also suggested making the water taste nicer to encourage drinking - naturally or even by a drop of sugar free squash if that’s all that’s available. Seems to have worked for us. I’ll add that with this technique I do still give my piggies a small amount of pellets each morning and they also have lettuce and occasional herbs/fruit

 

[deepseascale]

As they don’t have pellets and water is filtered, and are only eating cucumber and peppers, it is possible - I can’t say for certain though - that calcium intake has gone low. As I say ,too low is as likely to cause sludge/stone formation as too high calcium, knocking the balance still the wrong way. There is a point where things are nicely balanced but it has to be found for each area.

Without pellets being given there is more flexibility in veg intake - not necessarily quantity but variety. Lettuce and coriander for example are both safe to be fed daily. Even higher calcium veggies might be able to be added given there is a little other calcium going in by the fact they don’t get pellets.

Thanks, I will look into this. They do get lettuce and the odd piece of fruit/carrot but my vet had advised to cut out herbs entirely, there's a chance I've been overly cautious with it.

The best advice I had from my vet to combat bladder sludge was to keep my Guinea pigs moving every day, having them run around to mix up the sludge in their bladder like in a washing machine. When my older lady suffered quite badly with sludge, this really seemed to help her and we don’t suffer with it anymore. Sometime I would have to encourage the running around (which you feel a bit bad!) but it worked for us to prevent the buildup.

They are older and despite being in a 4x2 C&C with an opening to go out and free roam they tend to just lay about in the daytime. I'm not sure I could get them to run unless I chased them! I've been experimenting with putting them out with no hideys and hopefully that will incentivise them to move a bit more. Thanks for the tip!

 

[Piggies&buns]

Thanks, I will look into this. They do get lettuce and the odd piece of fruit/carrot but my vet had advised to cut out herbs entirely, there's a chance I've been overly cautious with it.

They are older and despite being in a 4x2 C&C with an opening to go out and free roam they tend to just lay about in the daytime. I'm not sure I could get them to run unless I chased them! I've been experimenting with putting them out with no hideys and hopefully that will incentivise them to move a bit more. Thanks for the tip!

Herbs (except parsley) are usually fine to be fed to bladder pigs. Particularly as you’re not giving pellets - it gives you greater flexibility with veg and consequently calcium intake as the main calcium contributor has been removed. As I say, going too low with calcium is as bad. Should it be that calcium is now too low in their diet then things won’t improve until it is addresses.

You’d do better to cut the fruit and carrot out entirely as those really are not needed in the diet.

 

[Storm1974]

Just wondering why pellets are such a no no in regards to calcium? I think the Versele Laga Cavia Complete pellets I give mine are quite low calcium.
I don't have any issues yet with bladder stones as the boys are younger than 6 months old, but should we not be feeding pellets in order to help prevent bladder stones, then? My boys don't get to go outside much and the pellets contain Vitamin D3, so I don't really want to stop feeding them. There's only 0.8% calcium in their pellets.

 

[Piggies&buns]

Just wondering why pellets are such a no no in regards to calcium? I think the Versele Laga Cavia Complete pellets I give mine are quite low calcium.
I don't have any issues yet with bladder stones as the boys are younger than 6 months old, but should we not be feeding pellets in order to help prevent bladder stones, then? My boys don't get to go outside much and the pellets contain Vitamin D3, so I don't really want to stop feeding them. There's only 0.8% calcium in their pellets.

Even low calcium pellets contain more calcium than the highest calcium veg. 0.8% is about average content of most pellet brands but the pellets you feed are good quality.
Pellets and not filtering drinking water are the main way calcium will be brought into the diet and it is there that the changes can most easily be made to keep things in check.

It’s not that they are a no no, it’s that all pellets need to be fed sparingly and the fine balance needs to be found for your piggies. if the calcium intake balance goes the wrong way it can lead to bladder issues - that is too low as well as too high can both cause problems.

Pellets are never the main part of the diet but they can help bridge any gaps in nutrients provided they are still kept limited.
If pellets are not fed there is leeway in the diet for higher calcium veg.

Piggies who have diagnosed bladder issues may benefit from not having them but in your case, keeping them limited to one tablespoon per day, filtering water is a good way to limit calcium
Intake.

 

[Storm1974]

Even low calcium pellets contain more calcium than the highest calcium veg. 0.8% is about average content of most pellet brands but the pellets you feed are good quality.
Pellets and not filtering drinking water are the main way calcium will be brought into the diet and it is there that the changes can most easily be made to keep things in check.

It’s not that they are a no no, it’s that all pellets need to be fed sparingly and the fine balance needs to be found for your piggies. if the calcium intake balance goes the wrong way it can lead to bladder issues - that is too low as well as too high can both cause problems.

Pellets are never the main part of the diet but they can help bridge any gaps in nutrients provided they are still kept limited.
If pellets are not fed there is leeway in the diet for higher calcium veg.

Piggies who have diagnosed bladder issues may benefit from not having them but in your case, keeping them limited to one tablespoon per day, filtering water is a good way to limit calcium
Intake.

Oh, ok.

Haven't actually been feeding them many pellets and they don't always eat what are put out either.
We also give them mineral water to drink (Though they barely drink!) which is a lot lower in calcium than our tap water!
Also, I was watching the LA Guinea Pig rescue channel on YT and the lady Saskia who runs it, did a video on calcium and bladder stones and she actually said that is was the oxylates in certain vegetables and in some pellets, that create the stones and that calcium is needed to remove the oxylates from the body, so we shouldn't really be limiting their calcium, just foods high in oxylates. She also said that it's more down to genetics that some pigs develop stones more than others. Here's a link to the video if anybody wants to watch it and make their own decision as to whether lowering calcium in their pigs diet is a good or bad thing...
[HEADING=2]Low Calcium Diet for Guinea Pigs. Yes or No?[/HEADING]

 

[Storm1974]

Also, regarding that video on one of the comments somebody says that they give their pigs a supplement called D-Mannose which apparently helps prevents UTIs and UTIs are related to developing bladder stones! Think I'm going to get some as a preventative measure, apparently you just add it to their water.....Oh but mine barely drink their water so maybe I could sprinkle some onto their wet food instead...

 

[Piggies&buns]

Yes it is oxalates as well but is a complicated issue. As I did say, too low in calcium is also risk for causing bladder issues, it’s about finding the balance. There is also a genetic element.
If your piggies were to display excessive white patches (some white powdery patches are normal and not a concern) on bedding or if it was gritty rather than powdery then those are the warning signs that something is out of balance.

The situation in America is often different to here in the UK. Their water is softer for example than we have in the UK so what works for them won’t always work for us so you need to be very careful. Softer water, less pellets = more leeway for the veg element of the diet.

Make sure you’ve definitely checked the bottle water is ok calcium wise.

You should not add anything to drinking water. Doing so can make them drink even less and promote issues such as algae growth in the water. It’s not a recommended practice.
Most long term owners will not ever supplement with anything unless medically advised.
Don’t give it to them unless and until you’ve spoken to a vet.

If your piggies are not great at drinking then that can be an issue. Encouraging good hydration helps with bladder health and prevent the build up of sludge which can form into stones. Doing so by giving an extra slice of cucumber can be beneficial.

So this is why our diet advice has always been - one tablespoon of pellets, filtered water and a cup of the four main veg daily with rotating other items in and out for variety and moderation.

Personally, my lot primarily eat hay, grass and fresh forage. They get slightly more than one cup of veg per animal (a wet diet really helps in good hydration and urination). They hardly have pellets - they get less than a tablespoon and only twice a week. I therefore don’t worry if I do give them parsley or kale for example because that is where they get their balance. I’ve not seen any bladder issues in any of my piggies or rabbits.

All About Drinking And Bottles
Long Term Balanced General And Special Needs Guinea Pig Diets

 

[RobertBlumen]

Our vet (USA) said that most US tap water is over-mineralized for guinea pigs. He advised us to buy bottled water and choose a brand that does not say "minerals added" on the bottle and is not spring water. There are quite a few varieties of bottled water in stores here.

 

[piggieminder]

@deepseascale I see your girls are elderly. I wonder if your vet checked them for arthritis. I have 2 older boys who suffer from arthritis and bladder sludge/grit. The vet told me this tends to build up in arthritic piggies because they don't squat in the right position to pee due to the arthritis discomfort. They are both on Metacam for pain and inflammation and an arthritis supplement (Johnson's 4 joints). I try to get them to move around to shake things up a bit by scatter feeding food and giving them floor time. I feed lots of watery veg which I wet before feeding. Limit pellets to 12 each a day, (vets are not keen on me stopping them altogether). I feed soy free pellets as the vets think soy could be a problem. We can't get rid of the gritty wee altogether but it is much improved and not a problem very often now.