Oldie soaked with urine plus vet bed question

[Fluffbabies]

Our Oreo (6.5 years old) is again very wet with strong urine. We tend to go through phases but recently we've been washing her tummy, back legs and bum every day and keeping the cage clean. But today her hair is wet all up her bum to her hips. She is a long haired but we've kept her hair short around her bottom since this started but it doesn't stop it. She has lost her hair again on her tummy we think from urine scald despite our best efforts to keep her clean and dry.

We're going back to the vet to see if it's another UTI, grit/irritation in urine, possible stone or maybe it's something chronic like cystitis. Her arthritis is bad, we've noticed her back is even more hunched.

I think she has become less mobile again and likes to stay inside a cosy bed, probably due to her age and because she is bony now. Perhaps also because the young ones are boisterous and run laps a lot sometimes running into her It makes us so sad as they are a lot bigger than her now and have knocked her over before but I don't think we can separate them. We have increased the cage from 5x3 C&C to 8x3 to give more space and put more hidies in there. We only use tunnels with soft fluffy mats in them so there's an easy way out.

She does "run" around the cage for salad/veg time and when we put in clean hay/clean the cage. We're surprised that she walks very quickly at these times and doesn't do as many bunny hops as she does sometimes. But other than these times, she settles in one spot which can't be helping.

I'm going to buy some vet bed and start putting the snuggle safe in there, see if she goes near it and the warmth helps her.

Which is the best vet bed please? The green or white back? Where's the best place to get it? Any other tips to help her?

 

[Piggies&buns]

I’m sorry to hear this.
The green back is needed.
I'm not sure there is a best place as such - I’ve got it from a local shop and from Amazon before.

I assume she is on painkillers for arthritis?
The pain and being hunched could be an impact if both issues arthritis and whatever is causing her urinary issues.

I hope she is ok

 

[Viennese Furbabies]

I'm very sorry. I have had similar issues with my late Muffin and I also have them with Billie. I think it's mostly a consequence of not moving much and peeing onto themselves.

Maybe ask your vet about an increase of pain killers if there isn't any sign of UTI etc. As my vet pointed out at Billie's last check, the fear of side effects are not really an issue in a piggy that's nearly six and your girl is even older.

I have noticed the fast running in Billie as well. Not so sure if it's a good sign really in her case. Or more a sign of "Have to get there, better faster than slower". But Billie also moves at normal pace most of the time. Luckily she is still the respected top sow, but yes, the others sometimes run into her or run through the fleece tunnel she sleeps in.

I hope the vet bed will help.

 

[Wiebke]

Our Oreo (6.5 years old) is again very wet with strong urine. We tend to go through phases but recently we've been washing her tummy, back legs and bum every day and keeping the cage clean. But today her hair is wet all up her bum to her hips. She is a long haired but we've kept her hair short around her bottom since this started but it doesn't stop it. She has lost her hair again on her tummy we think from urine scald despite our best efforts to keep her clean and dry.

We're going back to the vet to see if it's another UTI, grit/irritation in urine, possible stone or maybe it's something chronic like cystitis. Her arthritis is bad, we've noticed her back is even more hunched.

I think she has become less mobile again and likes to stay inside a cosy bed, probably due to her age and because she is bony now. Perhaps also because the young ones are boisterous and run laps a lot sometimes running into her It makes us so sad as they are a lot bigger than her now and have knocked her over before but I don't think we can separate them. We have increased the cage from 5x3 C&C to 8x3 to give more space and put more hidies in there. We only use tunnels with soft fluffy mats in them so there's an easy way out.

She does "run" around the cage for salad/veg time and when we put in clean hay/clean the cage. We're surprised that she walks very quickly at these times and doesn't do as many bunny hops as she does sometimes. But other than these times, she settles in one spot which can't be helping.

I'm going to buy some vet bed and start putting the snuggle safe in there, see if she goes near it and the warmth helps her.

Which is the best vet bed please? The green or white back? Where's the best place to get it? Any other tips to help her?

Hi

I would think that it is very much down to another increase of lack of mobility due to the arthritis. I would change her denning spot twice daily (mornings and evenings) and use highly absorbent vetbed pads for that area; get a bigger patch of vetbed and cut it into suitable pads that you can easily replace and wash.

She can no longer clean herself at the bum end so you have to do that with a moist rag for her. Unfortunately, when you get to that stage, the different issues start increasingly pinging off each other, including an increasingly brittle immune system.

I would also consider - for comfort - using half-heated snugglesafe (microwaveable) pads for slipping underneath the vetbed; they should be warm but not hot. Arthritic piggies and older piggies whose blood circulation is no longer working perfectly crave the warmth. In terms of the blood circulation; the feeling of cold is not so much caused by the outer temperature but by the 'in-body radiator' (the blood circulation) no longer working as it should. You can see the same in older homans.

My remaining old lady Cerian who is also pretty arthritic and has a mucky end and a bald belly is mainly denning in her fleece cave now, which is the ideal size for quickly replacing snugglesafes all the time and also replacing the fleece/vet bed pads she is lying on. I change the cave itself every 2-3 days and the pads twice daily. She has little fabric 'curtain' draped over the entrance she can pull shut since she seems to like it really snug as her personal quirk.
Thanks to 4joints for dogs liquid (which seems to be the most effective UK joint supplement) and dog metacam (now rheumocam in the UK) she is at the moment fairly stable and at a comparable stage to your girl after a major wobble in August.
I am keeping my fingers very, very firmly crossed that she can hang in there until the end of November to celebrate her 5th adoption anniversary (she was about 1 1/2 years old when I adopted her) after losing similarly aged but much frailer Brathlys just 10 days before her 4th Gotcha Day a month ago. But that is out of my control. All I can do is keep her as comfy as possible for as long as possible.

Looking After Guinea Pigs With Limited or No Mobility

 

[piggieminder]

I use the green back vet bed for my oldies. I managed to get some cheap off cuts on ebay, which I then cut down again to make them the right size for their hideys.

 

[Fluffbabies]

I’m sorry to hear this.
The green back is needed.
I'm not sure there is a best place as such - I’ve got it from a local shop and from Amazon before.

I assume she is on painkillers for arthritis?
The pain and being hunched could be an impact if both issues arthritis and whatever is causing her urinary issues.

I hope she is ok

She was on 0.4ml dog metacam twice a day and has been on that dose for a long time so it's probably time for an increase. Last time she had a UTI they put it up to 0.45ml and said she could go up to 0.5ml twice a day though the vet said that would be quite a lot because she's lost some more weight.

The vet advised to reduce back down to 0.4ml after the UTI cleared up because it would be a lot for her kidneys. But we know at her age that isn't a concern as we know she has issues with her bladder and maybe kidneys, and then her arthritis anyway. It's all about her being comfortable and quality of life at this point. Vet agreed and said we could increase it again if she needed it so I've started her to 0.45ml twice a day. Now today is day one of 0.5ml twice a day and we'll see if in a few days it helps her. Otherwise vet said would look at adding a different painkiller to the mix.

 

[Fluffbabies]

I'm very sorry. I have had similar issues with my late Muffin and I also have them with Billie. I think it's mostly a consequence of not moving much and peeing onto themselves.

Maybe ask your vet about an increase of pain killers if there isn't any sign of UTI etc. As my vet pointed out at Billie's last check, the fear of side effects are not really an issue in a piggy that's nearly six and your girl is even older.

I have noticed the fast running in Billie as well. Not so sure if it's a good sign really in her case. Or more a sign of "Have to get there, better faster than slower". But Billie also moves at normal pace most of the time. Luckily she is still the respected top sow, but yes, the others sometimes run into her or run through the fleece tunnel she sleeps in.

I hope the vet bed will help.

We've just moved house a few weeks ago and everything's been so busy that we hadn't been weighing her daily and monitoring her as much as I'd like. But that's probably a good thing because we're both struggling seeing her go downhill and no amount of watching and worrying about her will stop the inevitable.

Now I've had more time to watch her, she's definitely spending long periods laying in one spot. Usually in a fluffy tunnel or under a pile of hay. I'm guessing this is because it's warm. She won't go near snuggle safe though. I'm not sure she gets what it is. I try and put it near by to where she has settled. We used to put a plug in electric heater outside one end of the cage and she and Nugget (RIP) used to lay down that end. Nugget had very bad arthritis at the end which she hid really well.

I think she has some general chronic discomfort and I think it's because she's going or trickling a lot of the time. (My theory anyway). She has gritty urine and the specialist had passed out a few bladder stones. They check for stones and UTI each time we take her. She's also on 1/2 capsule cystease each day but I'm not sure how much this helps.

 

[Fluffbabies]

Hi

I would think that it is very much down to another increase of lack of mobility due to the arthritis. I would change her denning spot twice daily (mornings and evenings) and use highly absorbent vetbed pads for that area; get a bigger patch of vetbed and cut it into suitable pads that you can easily replace and wash.

She can no longer clean herself at the bum end so you have to do that with a moist rag for her. Unfortunately, when you get to that stage, the different issues start increasingly pinging off each other, including an increasingly brittle immune system.

I would also consider - for comfort - using half-heated snugglesafe (microwaveable) pads for slipping underneath the vetbed; they should be warm but not hot. Arthritic piggies and older piggies whose blood circulation is no longer working perfectly crave the warmth. In terms of the blood circulation; the feeling of cold is not so much caused by the outer temperature but by the 'in-body radiator' (the blood circulation) no longer working as it should. You can see the same in older homans.

My remaining old lady Cerian who is also pretty arthritic and has a mucky end and a bald belly is mainly denning in her fleece cave now, which is the ideal size for quickly replacing snugglesafes all the time and also replacing the fleece/vet bed pads she is lying on. I change the cave itself every 2-3 days and the pads twice daily. She has little fabric 'curtain' draped over the entrance she can pull shut since she seems to like it really snug as her personal quirk.
Thanks to 4joints for dogs liquid (which seems to be the most effective UK joint supplement) and dog metacam (now rheumocam in the UK) she is at the moment fairly stable and at a comparable stage to your girl after a major wobble in August.
I am keeping my fingers very, very firmly crossed that she can hang in there until the end of November to celebrate her 5th adoption anniversary (she was about 1 1/2 years old when I adopted her) after losing similarly aged but much frailer Brathlys just 10 days before her 4th Gotcha Day a month ago. But that is out of my control. All I can do is keep her as comfy as possible for as long as possible.

Looking After Guinea Pigs With Limited or No Mobility

Hi Wiebke,

Thank you for sharing the link again. Lost count of how many times I've read it but I always seem to miss something.

I'm sorry to hear of your old lady Cerian. We call Oreo, old lady Oreo... or old lady Floof!

It's a relief to hear that having a bald belly at this stage is hard to avoid as we feel so bad that we can't keep her clean. And she doesn't like us cleaning her. We just feel like we're failing her.

We had managed to get her belly hair growing back doing a proper wash every other day and a wipe down with a warm damp cloth in between but recently it's a wash and gentle half way blow dry each day but by the next day she's soaked up to her hips again. So now she's bald belly again. She manages to give herself little lady area cleans sometimes. She's literally folded in half when she does it and I watch open mouthed that she's getting herself in that position. I can't really cut her bum hair any more because her hips and lady area are prominent. What a state she's in

It is SO pungent though. Her bum hair is (was) white... and now it's orange. The whole cage can be clean but the whole big room smells so strongly from her wet hair.

We have spare antibiotics from last time and I just remembered our vet said if symptoms returned again it was likely another UTI and to try the antibiotics and bring her back if they didn't help. I think her last ones were 4-6 weeks apart which he said is more frequent than what he would consider recurring UTIs. He said she will probably keep getting them now. I will start her on the antibiotics and probiotics tonight and see where she is in a few days. Continuing with the top up feeds. She's been on 0.5ml of 4Joints once a day since vet noticed first signs of arthritis at 4 years old. If she's not any better in a few days I'll take her back to vet.

Perhaps if it is another UTI, she may be a bit more mobile if it resolves. Otherwise I think you're all right and she's just "denning" as you call it Wiebke. It's a good description. Sad to see her not moving much. She comes out for water and salad. She still runs out for the salad. In fact she's actually recently pushed the young ones out of the way to get to the front for salad lol.

I will keep my fingers crossed for you and Cerian and I'm very sorry to hear about Brathlys. Oreo just had her 6.5 year birthday 14th September and we were the same between 5.5 and 6. We were worried she wouldn't get to 6.25 and more so to 6.5 especially with the house move. We weren't expecting her to make it to our first house. My boyfriend Chris always called his savings 'Oreo's forever home fund' since she was a baby (they're soulmates and she's very much a daddy's girl - because mummy does the grooming and nail cuts whereas daddy does the best massages haha) so it's lovely she's come with us.

 

[Wiebke]

Hi Wiebke,

Thank you for sharing the link again. Lost count of how many times I've read it but I always seem to miss something.

I'm sorry to hear of your old lady Cerian. We call Oreo, old lady Oreo... or old lady Floof!

It's a relief to hear that having a bald belly at this stage is hard to avoid as we feel so bad that we can't keep her clean. And she doesn't like us cleaning her. We just feel like we're failing her.

We had managed to get her belly hair growing back doing a proper wash every other day and a wipe down with a warm damp cloth in between but recently it's a wash and gentle half way blow dry each day but by the next day she's soaked up to her hips again. So now she's bald belly again. She manages to give herself little lady area cleans sometimes. She's literally folded in half when she does it and I watch open mouthed that she's getting herself in that position. I can't really cut her bum hair any more because her hips and lady area are prominent. What a state she's in

It is SO pungent though. Her bum hair is (was) white... and now it's orange. The whole cage can be clean but the whole big room smells so strongly from her wet hair.

We have spare antibiotics from last time and I just remembered our vet said if symptoms returned again it was likely another UTI and to try the antibiotics and bring her back if they didn't help. I think her last ones were 4-6 weeks apart which he said is more frequent than what he would consider recurring UTIs. He said she will probably keep getting them now. I will start her on the antibiotics and probiotics tonight and see where she is in a few days. Continuing with the top up feeds. She's been on 0.5ml of 4Joints once a day since vet noticed first signs of arthritis at 4 years old. If she's not any better in a few days I'll take her back to vet.

Perhaps if it is another UTI, she may be a bit more mobile if it resolves. Otherwise I think you're all right and she's just "denning" as you call it Wiebke. It's a good description. Sad to see her not moving much. She comes out for water and salad. She still runs out for the salad. In fact she's actually recently pushed the young ones out of the way to get to the front for salad lol.

Old age is never an easy time. Especially when it happens in fast forward.
Just try to feel blessed for every day she is still there, keen on her food and still having her zest for life. Make sure that she is as comfy as you can make her in her familiar surroundings and her familiar daily routine.

You may also find this link here helpful: Caring for Older Piggies and Facing the End - A practical and supportive information collection

PS: You see and read the same things differently when you come at them from a different level experience or angle. I know that my guides can be a bit long but everybody at every level of experience can read them and take something new from many of them. Thank you for your feedback. It means a lot to me.

 

[Fluffbabies]

Old age is never an easy time. Especially when it happens in fast forward.
Just try to feel blessed for every day she is still there, keen on her food and still having her zest for life. Make sure that she is as comfy as you can make her in her familiar surroundings and her familiar daily routine.

You may also find this link here helpful: Caring for Older Piggies and Facing the End - A practical and supportive information collection

PS: You see and read the same things differently when you come at them from a different level experience or angle. I know that my guides can be a bit long but everybody at every level of experience can read them and take something new from many of them. Thank you for your feedback. It means a lot to me.

Oh the guides, your advice and experiences on here are amazing honestly and have really helped us so many times. We've spotted illnesses with no outward signs other than very slight changes in behaviour or tiny signs from reading the guides. We've had vets say there was nothing wrong but we insisted and they found illness.

Well the vetbed and pet pads for underneath are ordered and will be here Saturday at the latest. Time for a late night bath before bed I'm afraid Oreo...

 

[Wiebke]

Oh the guides, your advice and experiences on here are amazing honestly and have really helped us so many times. We've spotted illnesses with no outward signs other than very slight changes in behaviour or tiny signs from reading the guides. We've had vets say there was nothing wrong but we insisted and they found illness.

Well the vetbed and pet pads for underneath are ordered and will be here Saturday at the latest. Time for a late night bath before bed I'm afraid Oreo...

Thank you. It is great to hear that I and my guides do really help.

Hang on in there.

 

[Fluffbabies]

Very long update and my reflections on Oreo, and some questions. I don't expect it to be read by many but there's a couple of questions so I put those in bold in case anyone's experienced the same.

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We're hanging on. We're worried we might not have much time left with Oreo. Having never had a guinea pig this old it's hard to tell especially when you know it's a one-way street and things can happen quickly.

We've been giving 0.5ml metacam, the antibiotics, the probiotics, continued 4joints and cystease. I thought I saw a bit of improvement with mobility and perking up. We managed a couple of days without being drenched. I think trimming her bottom hair as short as I could and taking off a bit of her hid leg fluff at the back helped so it doesn't soak up as far.

I'm not so sure today. Yesterday's weigh in saw a new lowest weight from 845g to 815g but I forgot to weigh this morning so I'm not sure yet whether she had an empty belly/bladder or she's dropped further. She was soaked and smelly again but with the shorter hair it was limited to her belly and back legs so I gave her a mini wash ie. washing it off using a bowl of warm water and microfibre cloth while she stood on a towel so she didn't get wet wet but more than just a wipe down, so I could get the urine off her.

She's just looking sorry for herself a lot more. Sitting/standing still just.. looking. Although I balance this with as a coronet with a lot of droopy hair around her face, she can look sad just when she isn't looking up so you can see her eyes properly. I'm also not sure if this is just her sleeping... being older I know she's going to sleep a lot more. And Oreo was always a big sleeper even as a young pig we'd joke she was always napping and we wouldn't notice much difference when she got old. She does this a lot. She'll be in a tunnel or eating then she'll just stand there for ages. Then eventually she'll slowly start eating again. Repeat. Is this just her dozing off a lot?

The big difference I've notice over time is that she doesn't flop or lay down much now. She always used to curl up and stick her legs at weird angles or at least lay down. She's a lot more upright and stays sitting/standing up most the time. Sometimes she will lay down when we have lap cuddles but I think it's uncomfortable for her these days. I think maybe it's her bladder issues because since getting them at times she can squeak out if you touch the wrong part of her lower belly. We know at least she has gritty urine and has had bladder stones pushed out by specialist before. And of course she has the arthritis. It means she doesn't take the weight of her back paws much which have had little red patches since she started getting the arthritis.

Oreo's not been the biggest fan of the vet bed so far. It took me a couple of days to get it in the post, wash and brush it several times. Not long ago this afternoon she went to walk off a piece and stumbled She hasn't got much strength in her to stay on her feet if she gets nudged. She likes to curl up under a big pile of hay as long as the others don't mistakenly end up on her, or she pushes up a pee pad and lays against it. Like she's always trying to hide away under things now. She doesn't like us to bother her too much which I think is a combination of how she's feeling and the increase in baths and course of antibiotics that she really doesn't like either of. She's happier in her cage being quiet in her own space than being on our lap for strokes. She used to stay on our lap sprawled out asleep for hours and looked most put out when you put her back in the cage.

Just now, I managed to get her to try the vet bed with a snuggle safe half under it by putting her on it and gently stroking her so she stayed. She sat there for a while looking confused. Then her lips twitching more than I've seen them before and her head/body doing little nods.. almost like if you are nodding off. It was new though so I couldn't tell if maybe it's a guinea pig literally nodding off or if she was in discomfort. Anyone else's pig do this? It worried me something's wrong though and I have the carrier out in case I have to take her to the vet quickly.

I put a pile of hay in front of her and a very shallow bowl of nuggets, then mixed dandelion and plantain forage in. She perked up and ate some hay and forage with gusto. Now she's moved so she's laying down on top of the snuggle safe under the vet bed. I've felt it the vet bed with my hand and it doesn't feel very warm to me but I heated it right. She's still and has the fleece forest over her.

I'm considering if I take her to the vet or not. I'm not sure if she's unwell or it's just more age. Our local vet doesn't seem to put much effort in when I take her there. He'll check her over a bit including her teeth and bladder, feeling for stones and looking at the urine. He's suggested trying a conscious scan but she won't keep still out of her cage especially at the vet. He just kind of says that she's very old and it may be urine infection/stones/grit and it's hard to tell. Whereas if I take her to Kim at Cat and Rabbit, she looks at every part of her in detail, tells me how different parts of her are (e.g. heart, gut, arthritis etc etc) and tells me what her experience of life is like at this time and whether we can make her more comfortable or if things are progressing and how I'll know what to do when.

Oreo deserves to be seen by Kim but it's a 4.5 hour round journey in the car then extra time while at the vet. I don't know if I should make an appointment to get a good overall understanding of her condition and quality of life, but I feel like that's a lot to put her through at her age/condition?

I worry her quality of life isn't great right now but I don't know what quality of life looks like at this age and what's normal. She still rushes out when it's salad/veg time, snatches treats from you, gulps down her medicines but spends most her time not moving very much and most the day sleeping in one spot. I can't tell if she's comfortable or in pain. I think I see signs she's uncomfortable but I don't know the degree of it. And I have to remind myself that she will look very different to the other four... because they're 4.5 years younger than she is! Every day is a rollercoaster of emotions between seeing her in her active moments with the herd and seeing her not come out for hours. I hate it that no matter how much I look at her I don't know how she's feeling and she can't tell me. It just feels like guessing all the time especially when I know how well they can hide it/just carry on.

 

[Viennese Furbabies]

I'm very sorry! It's really hard to tell how they are feeling exactely.
The fact that she doesn't lay down anymore and mostly stands, doesn't sound too good. But from the distance I can't even start to guess if it's a sign of pain.

I don't think that a 4.5 hour road trip would be good for Oreo. Is she usually relaxed during a car ride? Would you take her on her own?
Of course it would be great to hear an expert opinion, but do you really think that it would change anything? Kim only sees a moment of her life, under difficult circumstances because of the long car ride. You're the one there all the time.
You have to take each day as it comes.

Holding both of you in my heart!

 

[Fluffbabies]

I'm very sorry! It's really hard to tell how they are feeling exactely.
The fact that she doesn't lay down anymore and mostly stands, doesn't sound too good. But from the distance I can't even start to guess if it's a sign of pain.

I don't think that a 4.5 hour road trip would be good for Oreo. Is she usually relaxed during a car ride? Would you take her on her own?
Of course it would be great to hear an expert opinion, but do you really think that it would change anything? Kim only sees a moment of her life, under difficult circumstances because of the long car ride. You're the one there all the time.
You have to take each day as it comes.

Holding both of you in my heart!

That's a really good point and puts it in perspective for me thank you... that Kim only sees that moment. I think I'll take her to our local vet for a general check over and check her for stones/infection. And I'll ask if we can try her on a second painkiller as that's what Kim suggested last time she saw Oreo instead of continually upping the metacam, instead adding a second painkiller to the mix.

Funnily enough, Oreo's always been the most laid back piggy I think we will ever have the immense pleasure of owning. She really is a very special girl and my partner's soul pig. She's been to Kim so many times over the year. Back when we had our original three and Ginger needed surgery for an abscess at around 3 months all, all three would make the trip each time. Because you couldn't leave one on its own or only take one! Oreo was so used to the trip that I'd strap the carrier into the back seat. Get in the car, turn around just in time to see her flop and fall asleep!

However the last time or two we took her up there with our other senior Nugget (RIP) as we really needed some specialist advice, we were wondering if it was fair and how comfortable she could really be having arthritis and being in a bumpy car that long, enough through we padded under the carrier and put her on top of several thick layers of fluffy blanket.

As you said, it wouldn't change anything. There's no cure for old age. We decided long ago we wouldn't put her through a scan or operation due to her arthritis. The only thing I want from the vet is to check if there is illness we can be treating, more pain relief to keep her comfortable and when the bad outweighs the good.

I think it was a good thing that she's been laying flat on top of the vetbed on top of the heated snuggle safe. She looked quite relaxed. We used to put the electric heater beside one side of the cage in our rented place as we had no heaters in the living room. Oreo and Nugget would lay right next to it and the others wouldn't. I think we need to do that again. I have fibromyalgia and when my pain was bad in the past my favourite thing to do was lay on my heated blanket and sleep!

Good news is I got the other off cuts of vet bed today and have cut it all into the right sizes, brushed all of them and been washing them so it will be under all the beds and hidies! And I can swap them out to keep her dry.

 

[Viennese Furbabies]

To ask for a second painkiller is a very good idea. Billie is on 2 different painkillers as well.
And warmth will help for sure. If you can get your girl to use the snuggle safe.

I know exactly how you feel at the moment. With my late Muffin it was a rollercoaster ride for months. And I've had enough old piggies before him who kept me worrying about them all the time. Most of the times, a vet couldn't really help.
It's great when they reach a higher age, but sadly most of them show a lot of signs of age.

 

[Fluffbabies]

Hi everyone,

Not a great update. I thought I noticed a change in Oreo yesterday that she seemed more inactive, not as interested in salad time, more just standing in random places up on her toes. Made her comfy on her vetbed with a snuggle safe with hay, nuggets and water next to her and wondered if I was overthinking things as you can't watch them constantly but planned to take her to local vet. We both had late shift. Got home at 11pm and she didn't want much of her critical care (which she loved) or fav veg. Maybe I woke her up though and that's why she was a bit grumpy (it's happened!) but I braced myself for her maybe not being here in the morning.

This morning I weighed her and she's only 750g (90g less than two days ago). We forgot to weigh her yesterday both being burnt out
She had her metacam slowly which set off more huge alarm bells because she's never been able to get it quick enough and she didn't want cucumber or critical care. She would only have some salad and slower than normal. Got her an emergency appointment luckily it was a vet who sees a lot of exotics. She said her teeth are fine and no signs of infection. Said that although her legs were wet again that we'd managed to keep her skin in good condition. Only signs over than her arthritis and change in behaviour was her urine is sludgy. Our conclusion is that age has caught up with her and this is the sudden decline at the end :'(

But vet said we'd give her extra pain relief and something for the urine in case she perks up and it's all because of being very uncomfortable, monitor over the weekend for pain relief to start having an effect but if no change by Monday we should consider quality of life and time to PTS. Vet gave 0.08ml gabapentin, 0.08ml tramadol and 0.08 potassium citrate mixture (to make alkaline urine more acidic, keeps sludge more liquid so easier to pass as I understand it) all three times a day. To have on top of her 0.5ml metacam twice a day, cystease, 4joints. Stop antibiotic but continue probiotic. Up critical care to 40mg dry weight a day, in three sittings if we can, try for 10ml at a time.

We already know we'd have to PTS if medication doesn't help as she's only eating little bits of hay. Poops are very small today so timing's right that she's slowed down on eating in past 2-3 days. And she isn't out much at all all of a sudden, maybe a couple of times a day. It doesn't feel like denning now or an old immobile pig that's still happy. It feels like the end. I watched videos I took of her and her cage mates a week ago to three days ago. 3-7 days ago she was still walking around the cage, exploring new things at her slow pace and coming up to us for salad. They were interacting with her. Yesterday morning she was staying in one warm place but eating hay when I put dandelion and plantain mix in it, still snatching veggies from me and drinking from her water bottle. Since last night the cage has been noticeably quieter. The others are hiding away sleeping instead of sleeping in the open and aren't going near her end of the cage. Very much the same as when Nugget suddenly declined in a couple of days and they know before us.

Anyway... I got her home and gave her the new medications, managed to give her 5ml of critical care and she ate lettuce and some cucumber with gusto. I took a video to show my partner stuck at work and she seemed perky and more herself. I thought this odd after a car/vet trip. Put her in her corner all clean stuff, portable heater and all her food nearby. She ate some more salad and settled. Didn't quick walk around the cage grumpy at me like she does after a bath.

Reassured partner that she's okay, did well with food and settled but I very much think PTS on Monday unless it's earlier and to brace ourselves because I feel it's imminent. I don't think the new meds will give more time but might make her comfortable and a few more happy moments. With how she was at the vet, vet said let's give her the chance. Same with the specialist and Nugget, she was in that "middle place" as they call it, then the next day Nugget passed away.

The vet said the gabapentin and tramadol might make her seem a bit zoned out. Just checked on Oreo and I can't tell if she is spaced out from the drugs/they've helped and she's resting peacefully, or if she has started to pass away. She's laying pretty flat, which she has only done a couple of times in a long time. Her eyes are watery and seem glazed and she's very still. She is facing the corner but that's where the heater is. I gently stroked her and eventually she realised I was there and sniffed my hand. She was similar the first time I managed to get her to lay on the vet bed with the snuggle safe under it because I think it was the most comfortable she had been and she had a great sleep. But I also feel similarity to when Nugget was passing, that it's almost like she's not all there.

I've warned my partner that if he wants to try come home from work to say goodbye this would probably be a good time because I'm not sure if she's going or not. I'm late for work but they still expect me in and working! Ideally one of us would be here in case she starts passing in a painful way and needs to be PTS but we can't be here all the time and it could happen when we're sleeping I don't know how they expect us to concentrate at work though!

I honestly can't tell. I don't know if anyone has a way to distinguish a drugged up, old piggy deep asleep and one passing but she's peaceful and still at the moment. But I do wonder if the eating the salad with gusto was that last improvement they seem to have right before they go. Nugget did the same.

 

[piggieminder]

Sending you and your partner my very best wishes at such a difficult time.

 

[VickiA]

I’m so sorry that I don’t have the answers. It’s always a difficult time with older piggies trying to read the signs. All I can say is that you are the person who knows and loves her best. Only you tell if she’s in pain or further decline. My thoughts are with you at this difficult time.

 

[Wiebke]

BIG HUGS

I am very sorry. It is impossible for us to tell you.

No longer lying down is usually a sign of advanced arthritis in the legs. Good that you have got the extra painkiller - whatever happens, at least she will be that bit more comfortable.

Please half-heat a snugglesafe and gently lay her on top of it, with some soft fleece or vet bed on top of the microveable pad. Any arthritic/very frail/dying piggy is feeling cold between the aching bones and a no longer properly working blood circulation; the feeling of cold comes from the inside and is not related to the room temperature. Make sure that she can get off if she feels overheated.

At the very worst, if she is not just sleeping from exhaustion, warmth (but not heat) is the best thing you can do for a dying piggy.

I am linking this guide here in, just in case and not because I necessarily think that this is what is happening.
A Practical and Sensitive Guide to Dying, Terminal Illness and Euthanasia in Guinea Pigs

 

[Fluffbabies]

BIG HUGS

I am very sorry. It is impossible for us to tell you.

No longer lying down is usually a sign of advanced arthritis in the legs. Good that you have got the extra painkiller - whatever happens, at least she will be that bit more comfortable.

Please half-heat a snugglesafe and gently lay her on top of it, with some soft fleece or vet bed on top of the microveable pad. Any arthritic/very frail/dying piggy is feeling cold between the aching bones and a no longer properly working blood circulation; the feeling of cold comes from the inside and is not related to the room temperature. Make sure that she can get off if she feels overheated.

At the very worst, if she is not just sleeping from exhaustion, warmth (but not heat) is the best thing you can do for a dying piggy.

I am linking this guide here in, just in case and not because I necessarily think that this is what is happening.
A Practical and Sensitive Guide to Dying, Terminal Illness and Euthanasia in Guinea Pigs

Thank you Wiebke and everyone.

She is still with us. She’s eaten a bit more hay and nuggets for herself since her very long deep snooze for which she was laid flat. I haven’t seen her eat nuggets for a day or so.

My partner has come home and gave them salad. Before he could stop her by giving her some in her corner, she slowly walked out to where the others were for salad. So these are good signs but I know she may not have long left with us just by how boney she is.

He’s given her her next lot of meds and said the new meds definitely working because she became very dozy very quickly after taking them. So we need to syringe feed before the meds from now on!

We’ll see if she perks up, has some happy comfortable moments left and play it by ear. Not sure if we will continue to become this drowsy after these meds.

 

[Fluffbabies]

Tramadol and/or gabapentin causing excessive sleepiness and lack of coordination...

So we've seen some improvements in how Oreo is in herself but we don't know if we have quality of life yet. There might be room to tweak the tramadol and gabapentin. I think it's a matter of finding a balance between enough of them to take away pain and but not to the extent that she is so out of it that all she does is lay in one place asleep all day.

On Friday the first two doses of gabapentin and tramadol (both 0.08ml two-three times a day ie. 8 hours or 12 hours apart) at roughly 1pm and 9pm zonked her out to the point I honestly thought she was passing away in front of my eyes. She laid there all day eyes glazed over and watery, barely moving or responsive at all and this happened quickly within 30-60 minutes. She ate a little hay and nuggets at one point which was good but then she was out of it again. I don't think she's eaten any nuggets since then. We managed to give her some syringe feed and salad that night but she was falling asleep in between mouthfuls and I had to stroke her to bring her back round.

On Saturday, we gave both 0.08ml only twice, roughly 10am and 6pm. Oreo again stayed in one place pretty much all day. She seems a lot more comfortable though because she is laying down flat and sleeping instead of standing up high on her bad back legs with her back arched, in/out of sleep looking uncomfortable. Our concern is that she isn't moving around and she isn't eating much for herself because she's so sleepy. She'll wake up every now and then (and because we make sure she's got a big pile of hay right next to her or she's under it) she'll start eating little bits slowly before she falls asleep again. We have been putting a portable heater near the cage where she is instead of using the snuggle safe because I'm not sure she would wake up to move off it if it was too warm. She likes to go under a hay pile or a droopy blanket on top of some vetbed so I hope this is warm enough for her.

She has been out walking only once or twice a day just to move to another hide or because we disturbed her. Her walking seemed alright. My partner told me that in the evening around 9pm he went to give the herd salad and before he could toss some for the young ones to move away, Oreo noticed and walked out slowly into the group for salad.

We noticed late that night around 12-1am, that the later it got the more she moved. She did a bit more walking and ate more hay. She ate a bit of hay in one place, walked to another place and ate a bit more. Then went to get some alfalfa mix from the wreath. She showed interest in a hard grass treat hung up on the side. I got it down and put it on the ground and she had a little nibble. She was more responsive to us and looking around in case we had treats. And the others started being around her more and licking her eyes again. She wants cucumber, salad, herbs and tomato. She still doesn't want other veg she used to like or her critical care that she liked. This is the most we've seen her be like normal/doing normal things. She drank a bit of water from the bottle. Her walking seems more wobbly/uncoordinated. We had lovely cuddles last night and she reached to give us both lots of kisses.

So I thought.. the doses are too high and she's not eating for herself because she's so drugged up. Unfortunately of course vets are closed on Sundays and I wouldn't normally treat on spec unless a vet has given me guidance, but today we decided to give 0.06ml of each which is 75% and judge whether to give the middle dose depending on how much she moved/how out of it she was.

She hasn't moved from her comfy spot but if you stroke her she reacts and moves her head round to see if you have a treat. If you do, she snatches it and gobbles it down quickly like she used to. She seems brighter and more her old self. Her eyes are open properly and alert. She's enjoying cuddle time. When she saw we had salad for the group she wandered out. During med/syringe feed time, we're managing 15ml a sitting, three sittings a day. Maintaining weight of 725mg so far. She stretches out searching for the next bit of salad and is hiding/stress chewing less.

We skipped the middle dose and I gave 0.06ml of gabapentin a couple of hours ago to stagger it from the tramadol and see which one is causing the drowsiness or if it is both. She was only really doing bunny hops low on her legs instead of walking and didn't go into a trance shortly after having it. But back in the cage she's been sound asleep in her spot and not moved since. She eats a little bit of hay immediately after going back in the cage after the feeding but then goes to sleep. She responds well to the stimulation but if there isn't then she sleeps. I will give her the 0.06ml of tramadol to see her over the night.

I hope the potassium citrate is helping as she wasn't soaking wet when I picked her up today. She's a little wet or dirty but drier.

I will ask the vet for advice in the morning and I'll try the tramadol first before the gabapentin too see if it makes a difference.

 

[Fluffbabies]

Also, poops seem slighter bigger since syringe feeding.

Maybe it takes a while for them to get used to tramadol/gabapentin and it would have less side effects? She's only 725g but the vet would have worked it out for her weight. Maybe she's more susceptible to the extreme drowsiness and incoordination.

Her best so far has been on 0.08ml of both but about 5 hours after having it! Having just 0.06ml of gabapentin hasn't made much difference in that she's been asleep in one spot since having it 2 hours but she's repositioned herself a few times at least and isn't completely out of it.

 

[Fluffbabies]

Just gave Oreo her 0.06ml tramadol and 1 capsule cystease in 1ml water, after 13ml of critical care, 1.5ml water and a some wet lettuce leaves. I put her back in her corner and she decided to walk 4ft away to eat some of the alfalfa mix hay wreath treat. She spent 5 or so minutes eating a little bit slowly. She's walking lower on her back legs with her back less arched, perhaps a bit less steady than before this down turn. Walked 2ft back to a tunnel, sniffed some hay showing interest but didn't eat any and has now dosed off.
Managed four feedings of 16ml, 15ml, 13ml, 13ml throughout the day. Will see what the morning brings.