Old Guinea pigs fighting since introduce two new

[Newguineapigmum]

Hi guys I need some advice I’m new to owning Guinea pigs, I got my first pair at the end of March when they were 7wks everything was fine and they got on great. Last week I decided to get another two who were 8wks and ensured they were in a separate cage to our original two (Rocket and Rory). Just for context all 4 are male which I was assure by pets at home where I bought all 4 from would not be an issue. After a couple of days we introduced them all outside of their cages together and everything seemed to be going okay, Rocket and Rory were asserting their dominance by shaking there bums and getting on top of the new two (Dobby and Dexter). That night Rocket and Rory spent all night bitting and rattling their cage, I thought nothing of it and thought they might just be bored so tried to provide them with more toys and hay … this did not work. The next day when they all had floor time Rocket and Rory began chattering their teeth at one another and looking as if they were going to fight but it did not end physical. That night in their cage they began fighting and chattered their teeth at one another all night. When it was next time for floor time I noticed Rory had a scratch on his nose, this floor time is where it all went down hill. Rocket and Rory kept lunging at each other and fighting really bad at one point Rocket caught Rory’s mouth leading to another scratch, at this point I decided they needed to be separated. The difficult thing is that neither of them are clearly instigating the fights so it was hard to choose who to have in a cage alone. As Rocket had created a stronger bond with Dobby and Dexter we decided Rory would have some time alone and we would introduce Rocket into the other cage. It’s now been 3 days since they were separated and they are still chattering their teeth at each other through the cages, I know if I leave it too long to reintroduce them it will be harder but I’m scared if I do it now they will continue to fight and I don’t want either of them to get seriously hurt. I know it wouldn’t be fair to keep Rory alone, please could anyone advise?

 

[fluffysal]

Welcome to the forum. One of the experts will be along soon with advice but the short version is that a full on fight is a definite bond breaker and the 2 involved can't live together again. Generally boars can only live in pairs so you were given bad advice. By the sounds of it when you introduced the new boys Rory and Rocket both got to be dominant so now neither wants to be submissive. Hopefully you can have 2 happy pairs in the end.
Can I ask what size cages you have as most shop ones are far too small for adult boar pairs.

 

[Newguineapigmum]

Welcome to the forum. One of the experts will be along soon with advice but the short version is that a full on fight is a definite bond breaker and the 2 involved can't live together again. Generally boars can only live in pairs so you were given bad advice. By the sounds of it when you introduced the new boys Rory and Rocket both got to be dominant so now neither wants to be submissive. Hopefully you can have 2 happy pairs in the end.
Can I ask what size cages you have as most shop ones are far too small for adult boar pairs.

Thank you for your response, the cage size they sold us when we bought them was Large: H49.5 x W118 x D58.5cm. Would it be recommended that Rory would need to be rehomed, I really don’t want to have to but I know it would not be fair for him to be alone and if you say it’s unlikely they will rebond I’m not sure what other choice I have.

 

[Piggies&buns]

I’m sorry you are another victim of terrible pet shop boar advice. Keeping more than two boars together is not ok and hardly ever works out. Four together has a pretty much 100% failure rate.
You’ve also been sold a totally unsuitable cage even for two boars.

You will not be able to reintroduce two piggies who have had a fight. Once a fight happens a bond is over and any attempt to reintroduce will result in more fights.

You can only keep boars as pairs, so going forward you will end up with either:

- two pairs (not likely as two have fought)
- one pair and two singles (who need to live in separate but side by side cages). This sounds to be what is going to have to happen in your case.
- or at worst, four singles if all bonds are broken.

You will be highly unlikely to make a functioning trio either as mostly they don’t make it to adulthood. We would not recommend you attempt to do so.
So this leaves you with a pair and two singles going forward.
You can rehome the two singles if you wish to do so. They can be bonded with other piggies by a rescue centre (either with another boar or via neutering and having a sow each) and happily go to another home.

It is absolutely fine to keep piggies single provided they are living next door to others. This enables interaction between the bars but without having to share territory. You will see territorial behaviours between the bars (as you are seeing now - they are riled up due to the fight and defending their space) but they cannot actually fight again and do calm down in time.
(I myself have three single boars - one is a bereaved older piggy (his cage mate died two months ago) and two are younger. The two youngsters used to be a pair but their bond broke down when they hit their teens. The youngsters have lived side by side for 18 months. The older now single piggy also lives alongside since his cagemate died.)

Sadly your cage is not even big enough for two boars to live in, it most definitely is not big enough for four.

A bonded boar pair need 180x60cm.
A single boars needs 120x60cm.

Not that four boars together works but the cage to attempt it would need to be larger than 400x100cm. All this would do is give enough space to get away from each other but it wouldn’t make them get on
Even if you were brave enough to attempt a trio, the trio still need a cage at least 300x100cm. Again, thos won’t make them get on though so attempt at a trio is still likely to result in separation before they reach adulthood.

 

[Newguineapigmum]

I’m sorry you are another victim of terrible pet shop boar advice. Keeping more than two boars together is not ok and hardly ever works out. Four together has a pretty much 100% failure rate.
You’ve also been sold a totally unsuitable cage even for two boars.

You will not be able to reintroduce two piggies who have had a fight. Once a fight happens a bond is over and any attempt to reintroduce will result in more fights.

You can only keep boars as pairs, so going forward you will end up with either:

- two pairs (not likely as two have fought)
- one pair and two singles (who need to live in separate but side by side cages). This sounds to be what is going to have to happen in your case.
- or at worst, four singles if all bonds are broken.

You will be highly unlikely to make a functioning trio either as mostly they don’t make it to adulthood. We would not recommend you attempt to do so.
So this leaves you with a pair and two singles going forward.
You can rehome the two singles if you wish to do so. They can be bonded with other piggies by a rescue centre (either with another boar or via neutering and having a sow each) and happily go to another home.

It is absolutely fine to keep piggies single provided they are living next door to others. This enables interaction between the bars but without having to share territory. You will see territorial behaviours between the bars (as you are seeing now - they are riled up due to the fight and defending their space) but they cannot actually fight again and do calm down in time.
(I myself have three single boars - one is a bereaved older piggy (his cage mate died two months ago) and two are younger. The two youngsters used to be a pair but their bond broke down when they hit their teens. The youngsters have lived side by side for 18 months. The older now single piggy also lives alongside since his cagemate died.)

Sadly your cage is not even big enough for two boars to live in, it most definitely is not big enough for four.

A bonded boar pair need 180x60cm.
A single boars needs 120x60cm.

Not that four boars together works no matter the space but the cage to attempt it would need to be larger than 400x100cm.
Even if you were brave enough to attempt a trio, the trio still need a cage at least 300x100cm. This won’t make them get on though so attempt at a trio is still likely to result in separation before they reach adulthood.

Hi thank you for the advice, I am now in a predicament because I certainly do not have the space to have 3 cages as that was never the plan. At the moment the 3 Guinea pigs seem to be bonding well, when we got the new 2 Dobby and Dexter neither of them seemed to be bothered in being the dominant one they just went about their own things, now Rocket has been introduced they have been happy for him to be the dominant one, is the issue that as they grow older this could change?

 

[fluffysal]

A lot of us have been sold cages that are too small (including me and I went larger than advised!) The irony is that you can buy a cage far bigger by using connecting grids for much less money.
Could you do a bonding session with Rory and one of the little ones to get two pairs?

 

[Newguineapigmum]

A lot of us have been sold cages that are too small (including me and I went larger than advised!) The irony is that you can buy a cage far bigger by using connecting grids for much less money.
Could you do a bonding session with Rory and one of the little ones to get two pairs?

I mean we could definitely try as I don’t want to have to end up having to give up any of them. I also don’t want to risk keeping the 3 together and their bond breaking as the two youngest get older. Do you have any recommendations of where to get a suitable cage?

 

[Piggies&buns]

Hi thank you for the advice, I am now in a predicament because I certainly do not have the space to have 3 cages as that was never the plan. At the moment the 3 Guinea pigs seem to be bonding well, when we got the new 2 Dobby and Dexter neither of them seemed to be bothered in being the dominant one they just went about their own things, now Rocket has been introduced they have been happy for him to be the dominant one, is the issue that as they grow older this could change?

They absolutely will be bothered about who is dominant as time goes on. It absolutely could change. It is not common for a boar trio to make it. So you have two options here:

- leave them together as a trio until it fails.
Fingers crossed, hope for the best but accept that it’s not likely to work and have a third cage ready to separate at all times.
As I say though the cage for all three needs to be 300x100cm at a minimum. (That is around a 9x3 c&c cage)
Leave Rory single beside them

- split them and try to make two pairs, of course making sure you do not put Rory and rocket back together.
Accepting that this could fail and to be prepared that you may not get Dexter and dobby back together

The only cages big enough for boars are c&c cages.
For two boars you need a cage which is 5 grids by 2 grids (the measurements for that come in at 180x70cm)

I’ll add a link to our gallery

Member Gallery: C&C cages/homemade cages

 

[fluffysal]

Just to show you the grid sets. You set them up differently to the picture to give the piggies the space needed. The sets are about £20 ish. I used to use interlocking play mats under mine but now have correx inserts. You can build upwards to house two pairs without losing any more floor space. I have attached a picture of my boys palace with penthouse.

 

[Newguineapigmum]

Thank you all for the advice, I am devastated I have been put into this position and it has led to Rocket and Rory’s bond breaking. I have a lot of thinking to do and will need to make a decision quickly on if I will try to keep the 3 together or attempt to bond Rory with one of the new two.

 

[Piggies&buns]

Thank you all for the advice, I am devastated I have been put into this position and it has led to Rocket and Rory’s bond breaking. I have a lot of thinking to do and will need to make a decision quickly on if I will try to keep the 3 together or attempt to bond Rory with one of the new two.

It’s so sad that pet shops are still putting people in this position, and with cages which aren’t appropriate. I do really feel for you

To reiterate that with trying to keep the three together the more common outcome of a failed trio is a pair and a single but all three falling out can and does happen.
The recommendation would probably be to split and try two pairs while there is still the option, rather than risk the trio failing. If the trio fails you would likely have nowhere else to go except four singles.
Bear in mind that once they get to 16 weeks onwards that is when hormones rise and the risk of fall outs increases in incompatible pairs. Bonding boars within their teens is a bit harder due to surging hormones. The teens last until 14 months of age but that doesn’t mean everything settles at that point.

 

[Truffolo]

A fight amongst three guinea pigs in a small cage would most likely be far worse than what you have seen so far unless you are present to separate them quickly. If two boars attack a third, they could kill him as there is nowhere for him to escape to with so many pigs in the cage. His panic would reignite the fighting as he tries to run away. Could you approach a guinea pig rescue near you for advice? They may have foster homes that could help you, or know of much older bereaved boars who need company and might accept two of yours while they are still young.

 

[fluffysal]

I too advise against attempting a trio. I was presented with a pair of baby boars as a suprise. When I realised they could only be kept in pairs I was a bit gutted. However since becoming more informed about piggies I am content with my lovely boys. Now they are adults they are very soppy, silly and affectionate.

 

[Newguineapigmum]

Since making this post Rocket and Dobby have started to get agitated by one another, after reading everyone’s feedback I have decided to remove Rocket from the cage to avoid any escalation especially because when I am not here for parts of the day I do not want any proper fights breaking out. I have had to make Rocket a temporary living space within my house but I think I will need to look into rehoming Rocket and Rory as I don’t want to risk breaking Doby and Dexters bond as it would not be possible for me to keep all 4 in separate cages. I feel awful having to do this and have learnt in the future to do my own research and not take pet shops words. I live in London, does anyone have any advice on how I am able to quickly rehome Rocket and Rory as it is not safe for any of them for me to keep them and I think it would be unfair for me to separate Doby and Dexter as they’ve been together since birth. This is not an easy decision by all means.

 

[Piggies&buns]

Since making this post Rocket and Dobby have started to get agitated by one another, after reading everyone’s feedback I have decided to remove Rocket from the cage to avoid any escalation especially because when I am not here for parts of the day I do not want any proper fights breaking out. I have had to make Rocket a temporary living space within my house but I think I will need to look into rehoming Rocket and Rory as I don’t want to risk breaking Doby and Dexters bond as it would not be possible for me to keep all 4 in separate cages. I feel awful having to do this and have learnt in the future to do my own research and not take pet shops words. I live in London, does anyone have any advice on how I am able to quickly rehome Rocket and Rory as it is not safe for any of them for me to keep them and I think it would be unfair for me to separate Doby and Dexter as they’ve been together since birth. This is not an easy decision by all means.

It’s so sad for you.
Rescues are being inundated at present so it may not be quick.
This is our rescue list -https://www.theguineapigforum.co.uk/threads/guinea-pig-forum-recommended-rescues.196734/
See if there are any near you, prepare to travel a bit further afield and see what waiting lists you can get on for rehoming.

As for Dexter and Dobby, here are our boar guides which will help you.
The important thing with boars is space, as I say a cage of 180x60cm is needed as boars are territorial. Lack of space can be a real issue for boars.
Ensure there are no dead ends in the cage - so make sure all hides are tunnels, don’t use any single exit hides.
Ensure two of everything in the cage - two bottles, two (or more) hides, two hay piles. Avoid using hay racks or food bowls as they can become points of issue for sharing in some pairs. Plus foraging amongst hay for the tastiest bits as well as for their veg and pellets is excellent mental stimulation.

A Comprehensive Guide to Guinea Pig Boars
Boars: Teenage, Bullying, Fighting, Fall-outs And What Next?

 

[Truffolo]

Sorry to hear this. I hope things work out OK.

 

[Bill & Ted]

Do go back and complain to the manager at Pets at Home for the advice you were given, it’s dreadful you have been put in this predicament. This is one of the reason why we advocate the “Adopt, don’t shop” as you have the back up of a rescue if anything goes wrong. Can you reach out to a local rescue and see if they can help you? please do not return any of your boys though to P@H because they would face an uncertain future

 

[Cait_lin]

Since making this post Rocket and Dobby have started to get agitated by one another, after reading everyone’s feedback I have decided to remove Rocket from the cage to avoid any escalation especially because when I am not here for parts of the day I do not want any proper fights breaking out. I have had to make Rocket a temporary living space within my house but I think I will need to look into rehoming Rocket and Rory as I don’t want to risk breaking Doby and Dexters bond as it would not be possible for me to keep all 4 in separate cages. I feel awful having to do this and have learnt in the future to do my own research and not take pet shops words. I live in London, does anyone have any advice on how I am able to quickly rehome Rocket and Rory as it is not safe for any of them for me to keep them and I think it would be unfair for me to separate Doby and Dexter as they’ve been together since birth. This is not an easy decision by all means.

I'm so sorry It's so frustrating that even nowadays pet stores are still giving so much misinformation to new owners and putting their profits ahead of the welfare of animals. You're doing what's best for the pigs in the situation you've been put in and I'm sure Dobby and Dexter will be very happy with you I hope Rocket and Rory find good homes and that everything works out in the end

 

[Jaidy88]

Pets at home did this to me also, I came home with 3 boar siblings and a cage that cost £50 which was of no use whatsoever. I've written a huge complaint to them about the misinformation on piggies, they happily sent me home with 3 but wouldn't give me more than 6 tiny fish. It makes no sense. Thankfully I joined here and got so much advice that really helped. My 3 are still together currently but I am now fully aware this could change very soon and have been able to prepare for this by buying the CC cages x2 so I can adapt it myself at home for them. I'm fortunate that my piggies have a whole bedroom so space isn't an issue but like you I was thrown into turmoil when I realised a trio was unlikely to live happily. I really hope you manage to rehome and everything works out x

 

[Bill & Ted]

Pets at home did this to me also, I came home with 3 boar siblings and a cage that cost £50 which was of no use whatsoever. I've written a huge complaint to them about the misinformation on piggies, they happily sent me home with 3 but wouldn't give me more than 6 tiny fish. It makes no sense. Thankfully I joined here and got so much advice that really helped. My 3 are still together currently but I am now fully aware this could change very soon and have been able to prepare for this by buying the CC cages x2 so I can adapt it myself at home for them. I'm fortunate that my piggies have a whole bedroom so space isn't an issue but like you I was thrown into turmoil when I realised a trio was unlikely to live happily. I really hope you manage to rehome and everything works out x

That’s a good space for them, hope you manage to keep them together

 

[Newguineapigmum]

Hi thank you all for the advice I have spoken to the HQ of pets at home as I’m disgusted I’ve been put in this position, I am heartbroken to have rehome Rocket and Rory. I feel I have failed them and hate that they’ve had to lose their bond as a result of this horrible mess up from pets at home. Luckily I have managed to find a new home for Rocket and will be making that transition very soon. That leaves me with just having to find Rory a new home which I hope I can do soon to avoid any further distress.

 

[Piggies&buns]

You have not failed them, please please don’t think you did. Pets at home failed you!

 

[Cait_lin]

Hi thank you all for the advice I have spoken to the HQ of pets at home as I’m disgusted I’ve been put in this position, I am heartbroken to have rehome Rocket and Rory. I feel I have failed them and hate that they’ve had to lose their bond as a result of this horrible mess up from pets at home. Luckily I have managed to find a new home for Rocket and will be making that transition very soon. That leaves me with just having to find Rory a new home which I hope I can do soon to avoid any further distress.

I'm so sorry. None of this is your fault, even in this awful situation you've done what's best for the pigs which is more than can be said for Pets At Home. That's so great that you've found a new home for Rocket already, I hope he's very happy there and I hope Rory finds a new home soon too