New sow looooves humans, scared of pigs

boozi.pigs

boozi.pigs

New Born Pup
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Hi all, first time writing, but I can't find any other guidance so I'm hoping someone has insight.
Newer guinea mama, I got my Fernetti in feb, Gin-Rummi in April, Whiski in July, and Drambui 2 weeks ago. All girls are respectively: 11 months, 9 months, 7-8 months, and newest 6-7 months. My original 3 get along great with each other, they sometimes bicker like sisters but overall love each other & have a happy home, and thankfully welcome human affection/interaction. My little Drambui was immediately accepting of human affection, you can snuggle her ALL day long, sometimes she eats more while you're petting her, she's approach *any* stranger and happily let them hold her. So clearly, she ain't afraid of us.

I first introduced her to Fernetti (my other pig who *most* welcomes human interaction and likes to meet new pigs), and it was an instant hit. Everyone calm, Fernetti grooming her, they seemed happy to have their friend. The issues started once the other two, Gin-Rummi and Whiski, came into play. I have followed every introduction protocol the last couples weeks, I have tried to be so cautious and I wonder if that's my bad. GR and W were displaying completely normal, routine dominance behaviours, that they all experienced when they came into my herd. Bit of rumbling, teeth chattering, and then they calmed down. But Drambui I know was by herself for a long time, and I'm not sure if either she's *never* experienced dominance behaviours from pigs, or if she has and it was a traumatic incident that I don't know about. I can keep all 4 pigs in the same area, and my original 3 are happy, eating, grooming, playing, normal, but Drambui hides herself away. And when a pig even gets somewhat near her (not in her hidey, just walks by) she starts making alarm screams. I am confident at this point that no one will hurt her, nor will she hurt them. She never displayed any rumbles or teeth chatters, her reaction is just to start shrieking.

It makes me sad because she is so sociable and so cuddly with us humans, and my other 3 girls are *fantastic* and I KNOW would never hurt her. I am confident she would integrate so well, if she could just get over herself. So, how do i get her to come out of her shell and make friends? I even tried outdoors in the grass yesterday, and everyone was happily eating, but she still shrieks if they get near her. *sigh*

Please let me know if you can help or have tips/insights. I do NOT want to surrender my most cuddly girl of the herd, I just want her to make friends, and my girls seem to want to be her friend because they have all calmed down and now simply express interest in smelling her and getting to know her, but she won't have it...
 
Welcome to the forum

Did you allow her to live side by side with the others for a while before carrying out the neutral territory bonding? We recommend at least a few days but if there is a chance she isn’t used to other pigs then living side by side can last as long as is necessary for a pig to settle in - could be a few weeks or even a few months before attempting to bond them.

You sadly can’t make them get on. She sounds scared and it’s possible separating her from them could be in her best interests.
If she is so human orientated it is possible she has never lived with others and she may not any idea of the strict social hierarchy piggies live in
It’s likely she would be much happier living side by side with them but in her own separate cage possibly with fernetti. That would allow her to interact between the bars with them if she wants to but isn’t forced to be part of a herd. Whether she can come round in time to living with them is something you may be able to explore but it’s also possible she could need to be kept as a side by side permanently.

Wiebke

Thread 'Single Guinea Pigs - Challenges and Responsibilities'

Introduction
1 When is a 'single' really a single?
- Bought singles
- Fallen-out and aggressive piggies
- Bereaved guinea pigs
- No interest in other guinea pigs
- Disabled and special needs guinea pigs
2 Companionship options (with pros and cons)
- Dating
- De-sexing (neutering or spaying)
- Living alongside
- Buying a baby companion
3 Caring for single guinea...
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Wiebke

Thread 'Moody Guinea Pigs: Depression, Bullying, Aggression, Stress, Fear and Antisocial Behaviour'

1 Depression
- Acute Pining
- Loneliness
2 Bullying
3 Hormones and Aggression
- Boars: the teenage months
- Sows: ovarian cysts
4 Fear and Stress
- Prey animal default setting
- Fear-aggression
5 Antisocial and disabled guinea pigs

This text is part of...
Wiebke

Thread 'Bonding and Interaction: Illustrated social behaviours and bonding dynamics'

1 Introduction
2 Pre-bonding
- Quarantine and sexing
- The need for a plan B
- The rule-breaker: Youngsters under 4 months (sub-teenage)
3 Setting up an introduction
- Getting to know each other
- ‘Buddy baths’ – why not
- Scent swapping - why not
- Setting up a neutral bonding area
- How to start the bonding
4 Acceptance phase: Do we like...
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In honesty I haven't had them living directly side by side, they're all in my kitchen: 3 girls in one big cage and Drambui separated, about 3ft (1 metre) away. I could rearrange and bring them directly next to each other. But I haven't dealt with this before (the others seamlessly integrated), so I was paranoid they could still maybe get hurt through the cage? I don't believe anyone would at this point, no one has ever drawn blood, but there's the lingering "what if..."

But maybe that's the key for them. I've tried everything else, other than more time & patience (it's been 2 weeks). She does seem happier alone, but I have a nanny cam so I know when I'm not there for a few hours she gets bored, while the others are always interactive with one another. And she was happy with Fernetti before I introduced my other 2. I've also thought of maybe splitting the cage and keeping them in pairs that live side by side, but then I wonder if Fernetti would miss her other friends... it's all trial & error over here.

Thank you SO very much for your input. Please let me know if there's anymore ideas to some of these questions :)
 
So it’s sounding like you have put them together and then separated them? Have you done that multiple times already?
If she is living in a separate cage, then they are not trying to form a bond at this point.
Bonding is a one time event - you put all pigs together in neutral territory (bonding must never be done in the main cage) at the same time and see what happens between all four of them. It takes several hours even overnight sometimes in that neutral territory for them to get through the early bonding stages. If after a few hours/overnight all had gone well, you then move them into the main cage together and do not separate them again. If it fails in neutral territory, then the bonding won’t work and they live separately permanently.
The full process of forming their hierarchy and bond takes two whole weeks of being in the same cage as each other. If you’ve separated them after the neutral territory meeting then that has stopped the bonding process and they aren’t getting through the process at all.
Separating after the neutral territory introduction stops the bonding process and means they have to start again from the beginning if you put them together again.

However there is the exception with fear aggressive and stressed sows a little more to be able to stop a bonding and restart it again later is tensions are rising and not settling. This doesn’t sound to be what is happening here as such - it sounds to be more that during the time they have been together that she isolates herself and doesn’t want to be with them ie a failed bonding

Ultimately though, you can’t make it work - she either wants to be with them or she doesn’t.
If she was ok with fernetti then that may be the ultimate solution - having them in pairs. If you are not able to get her to bond with fernetti then drambui may need to be kept single all the time. But for now keeping her in a cage alone but beside the others to give yourself time to take stock of the situation and to give her time to get used to being around them is best. It may be that you can try a proper neutral territory bonding in a few weeks time.
3ft away from them is too far though - they need to be side by side.
 
I am learning a lot from this, thank you very much for your response!
It's difficult because there's much conflicting information on the internet, and even in books i've read from the library, and I don't personally have any friends or family with guinea pigs. Just trying my best to keep everyone safe & healthy, but perhaps at this point it has been a failed bond between Drambui with the others, and since she clicked straight away with Fernetti they would do well paired off...
 
I’m re reading your post now it’s morning here and gathering my thoughts a bit better. I’ve read your post originally through your perception of her being scared and not wanting to be with them but actually I wonder if that may not the case.

If drambui has been alone, then given her young age, it’s possible she missed out on ‘the school weeks’ she hasn’t had the vital learning time to discover about piggy society. She will be placed at the bottom of the hierarchy and is basically only learning now.
But an important part to note is that high pitched squealing and shrieking is often submission - literally telling the other pigs above her in the hierarchy that she knows she is below them, she knows they are in charge. It’s a correct response from a pig lower down in the hierarchy. The bit that bothered me was that she hides herself away and made it sound like she is completely refusing to interact with them - it may still be that but the shrieking may simply be normal submission but it doesn’t sound like the bonding has been done properly and seen through for you to get a definitive answer on success or failure. Whether she will learn how things work in a herd needs time but if she had not been actually in the cage with them for the full two weeks and you separated part way through the bonding process, then they aren’t actually bonding at this point. Repeated separations can make stress worse.

- I think you should have them directly side by side for a few days. Let her settle.
- Then put all four together in a neutral space somewhere away from the normal cage. There should not be any hides in the bonding pen, just a pile of hay and some water. (Hides in a bonding pen can actually cause problems for the bonding).
- Leave them in the bonding pen for several hours. You are going to see dominance, she will hopefully continue to submit. If that is all that happens then it has gone well, you then clean out and move them back to the cage together. Do not separate at all after this point.
If it fails ( I mean actually fails not just normal dominance ie a complete refusal to interact, fighting, aggressive behaviours) then you may need to split then into pairs if she still gets on with fernetti.

If you read all the guides I linked in my previous reply, they fully explain the bonding process and what behaviours are positive and negative. We work hard to ensure everything’s kept up to date so you can be sure it is the most accurate information we can provide.

The guides below also explain more

Wiebke

Thread 'The Herd, the Group and I: Investigating Guinea Pig Identity and Society'

Introduction
1 A Look at Social Identity
- Identity and Self-awareness
- Herd and Group: Juggling social identities
2 Herd Behaviours
- On the move
- Shared herd feeding
3 The Group and I
- Group identity vs. individual identity
- Group establishment and affirmation
- Use of the denning...
Wiebke

Thread 'Journey through a Lifetime: The Ages of Guinea Pigs'

1 First Hours (Birth and newly born)
2 Baby Days (Nursing and weaning)
3 School Weeks (The overlooked formative learning period)
4 Teenage Months (Those pesky hormones...)
5 Adult Years (Looking at some frequent challenges)
6 Old Age (Caring for the elderlies)
7 Facing the End (How to make the most of any precious time left)


This article series has been written for Guinea Pig Magazine and has been published in issues #54-60 (Jan. 2020 - Jan. 2021) under the title 'Days of their Lives'. The article series is property of Guinea...
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I agree completely with what @Piggies&buns has suggested. Herd bonding can often sound very dramatic with submissive squealing from the under pig. It sounds much worse to us humans than it feels to the pigs. An introduction in a neutral space following the guides that have been linked is the best way forward.
 
Thank you everybody! I know it will seem completely radical for there to an overnight change, but since I've been sick with Strep throat the last few days I've had nothing to do but observe the piggies, and this morning Drambui seems calm with the whole herd! She makes squeaky noises (not shrieky noises) now when someone comes near her space, but I think it's that submission squeaking. I actually just caught her in the same hidey with Fernetti and she didn't mind. We're making progress, I think the key here is time.
Very interesting and insightful what @Piggies&buns said about the "school years", the others I got were around 3mo (Gin-Rummi was 9 weeks) at the time and Drambui is already 6 or 7 months, so it's definitely a different experience from the others. Even though things are seeming better, I'm still going to follow all of your advice and suggestions moving forward! Thank you all very much! Hopefully I'll be back soon with an update picture of 4 happy girls...
 
I wanted to report back some happy news - after some more bonding time, Drambui has been accepted by the herd / is happy to be a member! She is making friends, eating, snuggling, grooming, drinking water, getting the zoomies, pooping. I've learnt - she's a serious drama queen, and it's only when I'm around. I check up on the nanny cam when I'm gone, and she never makes a peep. When I'm around, she'll start wheeking when someone's just eating a carrot near her LOL. But I've realized through observation, she is actually very happy and comfortable with my other three, and the wheeking is NOT a sign of distress, but rather some attention seeking. I think she was starved of human & piggy affection for many months of her thus far 6-month life... definitely not attention starved now in my home! (she is the black & white floofer, and loooves the Kavee pumpkin)

IMG_4766.webpIMG_4748 2.webp)
 
My Rosie is also very "wheeky" and chatty. She suddenly found her BIG wheek just a few weeks ago, the house has been shaking whenever she decides "Yes, now I will sing" :roll:

I love the pumpkin! It's so cute!
 
RosieLily said:
My Rosie is also very "wheeky" and chatty. She suddenly found her BIG wheek just a few weeks ago, the house has been shaking whenever she decides "Yes, now I will sing" :roll:

I love the pumpkin! It's so cute!
Click to expand...
Haha! I know the "house shaking" feeling. My Drambui certainly has a voice that carries...LOL...

Thank you to everyone on this thread for being so informative, kind & reassuring. Grateful to be part of this piggy community :)
 
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