New bond-Is it going wrong?

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Gingerspider

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We popped out bereaved piggy Len into a rescue to date for a new friend. He was there just over a week and the rescue said he instantly bonded with a new piggy. They were sleeping in the same hidey and getting on like a house on fire for at least the last 4 days.
We picked them both up today and have popped them in their new cage together. The new piggy, Vincent looks quite young and it appeared (much to my disbelief) that he may be the dominant one. Len went up to him and started washing (good sign) but then it all seemed to kick off and Vincent is constantly rumble strutting. At one point they rose up and eachother and now Len has a bloody mouth, so assuming he was bitten by Vincent.
I was told to expect a bit of rumbling and some chasing but don't know whether to separate if there's actually biting?
Obviously don't want to stop the process unless absolutely necessary.
Any advice greatly appreciated.
 
A new environment will cause a new round of dominance - that is to be expected - but it also takes around two weeks for a relationship to be fully formed. Rumbling and chasing isn’t concerning.
Did you see actually what happened and how the injury was sustained ? You say they rose up - do you mind they were on the back legs at each other in an actual fight?
How have they been since?
 
They chinned up then I didn't see what happened as it was in a tunnel. Since then I've noticed Len still trying to go up to Vincent and make friends. Vincent has been rumble strutting, showing teeth ect but they do seem to have moment of calm in-between.
 
So it settled down and they have been OK with each other and then the last two days the rumblestrutting and squealing at each other has ramped up again. I feel like the newbie is scared and is constantly following Len around but it's really annoying him. Had to put a divider in the cage for the last two night because they've been waking us up kicking off. Sometimes it's absolutely constant and then they will just go off and fall asleep together or when it's floor time they potter about happily. Not sure when/if to give up the ghost or if this is normal?
 
The issue with repeatedly putting dividers in is that it can destabilize things and cause more dominance when you allow them back together.

If you are worried for their bond, you need to do a proper separation for a few days. Watch the submissive piggy’s behaviour to see if he perks up when away. Then, try a neutral territory reintroduction (do not just remove the divider - actually put the piggies somewhere outside of their normal territory) and see if they go back together.

Rumbling and squeaking however, is normal dominance but it is if it becomes too much and crosses into bullying (it doesn’t sound like it at this point though)
 
Thank you. To be honest it's hard to tell who the dominant one is. Len seems to be much more chilled and isn't instigating anything but he's twice the size of him and gets first food ect.
I have noticed they are getting on better at floor time and did wonder if a good clean of the cage might help.
Having the stick the divider in at night out of necessity for our own sleep! I don't have anything else at the moment I can put them both into.
I don't feel like Len is unhappy currently but he does look like he's getting annoyed with Ron (we have changed his name because he's a bit Weasley...Ron Weasley 😂) constantly following him around.
 
I can appreciate it is difficult if it is disturbing your sleep! It’s a balance though as if their bond is working then you need to leave them to get on with it, separating for what may be normal behaviour can do more harm than good to a bond.

If Vincent is young, then he may be looking for guidance from Len.

What are their ages?
Is their cage big enough? 180x60 recommended
Do all hides have two exits?
Are there multiple of every item in the cage?
Is theee plenty of enrichment to keep them occupied?

We obviously can’t see what is happening though and can only give the general advice - with boars they either need to be left to get on with it; or determine their bond isn’t working and permanently separate.
 
Hi

I would recommend to remove the tunnel for the time being once you can and have as open housing as possible (like a kids stool etc.)

Your boys see it obviously as an accidental overreaction and not as a fight so please let them sort it out but minimise any potential flashpoints.
 
Piggies&buns said:
I can appreciate it is difficult if it is disturbing your sleep! It’s a balance though as if their bond is working then you need to leave them to get on with it, separating for what may be normal behaviour can do more harm than good to a bond.

If Vincent is young, then he may be looking for guidance from Len.

What are their ages?
Is their cage big enough? 180x60 recommended
Do all hides have two exits?
Are there multiple of every item in the cage?
Is theee plenty of enrichment to keep them occupied?

We obviously can’t see what is happening though and can only give the general advice - with boars they either need to be left to get on with it; or determine their bond isn’t working and permanently separate.
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They have a 7x2 c&c cage. It's bigger than the spare bed 😂. All hideys have exits and entrances on both sides. Loads of chews, hay, two bottles. My other half works in the room with them most days and we get them out every night for an hour at least of floor time. We were just commenting that they had been getting on super well for the last few days and then another kerfuffle broke out. 5 minutes later they were cleaning next to each other and curled up. And then half an hour later, at it again. 😂
 
Thanks. I'm going to clean tonight and remove the tunnels. Ron as we are calling him now, is definitely a lot younger. We think maybe 4-8 months (though we were told two years!) And he does seem to be seeking guidance but he's very aggressive and vocal sometimes. A huge cage with loads of enrichment, 2 of everything and floor time etc. I think he might have nipped Len again this evening as his nose looks like it has a tiny cut! Arghhh, so stressful
 
Gingerspider said:
They have a 7x2 c&c cage. It's bigger than the spare bed 😂. All hideys have exits and entrances on both sides. Loads of chews, hay, two bottles. My other half works in the room with them most days and we get them out every night for an hour at least of floor time. We were just commenting that they had been getting on super well for the last few days and then another kerfuffle broke out. 5 minutes later they were cleaning next to each other and curled up. And then half an hour later, at it again. 😂
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As long as they continue signalling that they still want to be friends (that is what the piggy washing next to each other is for), then the bond is still working and what they are doing are rounds of a dominance sort-out.

It's a bit like a friendly but full-on boxing match with a hug and a rest together in between rounds. :)
 
Wiebke said:
As long as they continue signalling that they still want to be friends (that is what the piggy washing next to each other is for), then the bond is still working and what they are doing are rounds of a dominance sort-out.
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Thank you. It's so hard to tell what's normal and I'm terrified that Len might be hurt even though he's literally twice the size. Ron came from a rescue of 59 pigs so goodness knows what life he had and he clearly isn't used to humans as he's a nightmare handle. We shall keep on keeping on!
 
Gingerspider said:
Thank you. It's so hard to tell what's normal and I'm terrified that Len might be hurt even though he's literally twice the size. Ron came from a rescue of 59 pigs so goodness knows what life he had and he clearly isn't used to humans as he's a nightmare handle. We shall keep on keeping on!
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All you can do is to stay on and to ride the tiger wherever it takes you. But so far, the signs are good that they still want to be friends when the chips are down. They are still very much in the 2 weeks post intro group/territory establisment phase.
 
Arghh! They're at it again. This time it looks like Len has taken a chunk out of Ron's nose (only tiny). They will still sleep next to each other and are still cleaning but interspersed increasingly with showing of teeth, squaring up and possibly biting each other. Has the ride ended? This is so confusing and heartbreaking to watch
 
Just to add to the confusion, they seem to get on like a house on fire during floor time. So weird
 
Gingerspider said:
Just to add to the confusion, they seem to get on like a house on fire during floor time. So weird
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It’s not normal for two piggies who had a fight to be ok during floor time and we don’t recommend piggies who have fallen out even have floor time together (it will be seen as an attempt to bond each and every time).
However, very occasionally we see this happen - it’s an simply be that the two don’t mind each other and can tolerate interaction in a neutral space space as floor time but they still cannot share a territory and a form a hierarchy meaning they still can’t be rebonded
 
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