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Neville has head tilt and bloody nose

Laura M.

Laura M.

Junior Guinea Pig
Joined
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Location
Devon
After a failed bonding (Neville was with the other piggy for 5 days and we thought that everything would be alright, even after the fights at the start. but Today when I went in to the barn to check on the guinea pigs, I saw Neville drinking. Then he stopped and tilted his head 90 degrees to his right he was spasming. I picked him up and he also has dried blood on his mouth and nose parts. His front left foot also got bitten or scratched on the first day, and sometimes he avoids putting weight on it. I have separated him from the other piggy who is now in a box in my bedroom whilst Neville gets to keep the familiar surroundings of his enclosure.
What do I do?
 
futurefame said:
After a failed bonding (Neville was with the other piggy for 5 days and we thought that everything would be alright, even after the fights at the start. but Today when I went in to the barn to check on the guinea pigs, I saw Neville drinking. Then he stopped and tilted his head 90 degrees to his right he was spasming. I picked him up and he also has dried blood on his mouth and nose parts. His front left foot also got bitten or scratched on the first day, and sometimes he avoids putting weight on it. I have separated him from the other piggy who is now in a box in my bedroom whilst Neville gets to keep the familiar surroundings of his enclosure.
What do I do?
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Poor Neville. Phone the vet and try to get him seen as an emergency.
 
futurefame said:
After a failed bonding (Neville was with the other piggy for 5 days and we thought that everything would be alright, even after the fights at the start. but Today when I went in to the barn to check on the guinea pigs, I saw Neville drinking. Then he stopped and tilted his head 90 degrees to his right he was spasming. I picked him up and he also has dried blood on his mouth and nose parts. His front left foot also got bitten or scratched on the first day, and sometimes he avoids putting weight on it. I have separated him from the other piggy who is now in a box in my bedroom whilst Neville gets to keep the familiar surroundings of his enclosure.
What do I do?
Click to expand...

Hi!

You need to see a vet as an emergency as quickly as possible. This is very serious.
Emergency, Crisis and Bridging Care until a Vet Appointment
A Practical and Sensitive Guide to Dying, Terminal Illness and Euthanasia in Guinea Pigs

PS: never proceed with a bonding after a bite.
 
I will try to get a vet appointment, but it would help to know why this is such an emergency
 
futurefame said:
I will try to get a vet appointment, but it would help to know why this is such an emergency
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Any bleeding through nose and mouth in combination with a head tilt points towards a potential brain bleed and counts as a life or death emergency. Sorry for having to be so blunt.
List Of Life And Death Out-of-hours Emergencies

PLEASE accept that none of us is a vet and that we cannot diagnose sight unseen.
 
I do not think that the blood is coming from the nose or mouth, I think that he was bitten on the area between. I have just reread what I wrote first and it sounds worse than it is. The blood is almost definitely coming from scratches or bites in the are of the nose. I think that the head tilt might be due to temporary stress or excitement from the bonding attempt, but I am not sure.

1628249657052.png
 
Neville hasn't moved his head like that since I first noticed it and now it occurs to me that he does that anyway to get a good angle on the waterbottle.
 
futurefame said:
Neville hasn't moved his head like that since I first noticed it and now it occurs to me that he does that anyway to get a good angle on the waterbottle.
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He should still have a vet check.

He has a sore foot and a very sore mouth/nose area due to deep, full on bites, both of which should be seen and assessed for damage. He also may require an antibiotic to minimise the risk of abscesses, which can be a real pain and much more expensive to deal with. Before you don't know what is going on with him and how bad the damage from the fight is, you cannot plan any further.

The location of the bites points towards him cornering and pushing the other guy, whose only way of getting out was a frontal attack. Did you use huts with single entrances during and after the bonding? The first bite should have been the end of the bonding.
 
I have to agree. I'd get him to the vets today if possible. Guineas go downhill really quickly and can hide things very well. Even if it turns out to be minor it's better to be safe.
 
Wiebke said:
He should still have a vet check.

He has a sore foot and a very sore mouth/nose area due to deep, full on bites, both of which should be seen and assessed for damage. He also may require an antibiotic to minimise the risk of abscesses, which can be a real pain and much more expensive to deal with. Before you don't know what is going on with him and how bad the damage from the fight is, you cannot plan any further.

The location of the bites points towards him cornering and pushing the other guy, whose only way of getting out was a frontal attack. Did you use huts with single entrances during and after the bonding? The first bite should have been the end of the bonding.
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All of the hideys we used had two entrances, but Neville was really intimidating Little One (he was only sniffing and wanting to be friends, but he is four times bigger, so that could easily come across as threatening. The vet told us that Neville is fine, robust and healthy, and also that she hopes she won't see us again soon, for the sake of the guinea pigs! Now that we know that Neville is safe, and I have noticed nothing wrong about Little One, what do we do for the bonding situation?

We have an idea of putting a wire mesh divider in the hutch so that neither piggy is alone, but not together if they do not want do be - would that be acceptable in terms of guinea pig welfare and the need for company? Because Neville lived in a trio with his two brothers (it was a rare yet successful relationship) and when we went to pick up Little One, there were five of them, all living together in the same hutch. Might this mean that they need more company than just viewing through wire mesh?

I have also been reading up on bonding, and I did it the way Saskia from LA Guinea Pig Rescue did it (just putting them in a smallish neutral space and letting them sniff and climb all over each other and hoping for the best) but reading the PDSA guide to guinea pig bonding which says to do it very gradually, I wonder if I did it all horribly wrong. Which way is the best to bond?
 
I'm glad Neville and little one are okay. I've never bonded boars but I think I've they've had a fight that's caused injury the bond will not be successful. Don't quote me though. Have you read the bonding guide on here. It gives detailed information on how to bond.
 
Laura M. said:
All of the hideys we used had two entrances, but Neville was really intimidating Little One (he was only sniffing and wanting to be friends, but he is four times bigger, so that could easily come across as threatening. The vet told us that Neville is fine, robust and healthy, and also that she hopes she won't see us again soon, for the sake of the guinea pigs! Now that we know that Neville is safe, and I have noticed nothing wrong about Little One, what do we do for the bonding situation?

We have an idea of putting a wire mesh divider in the hutch so that neither piggy is alone, but not together if they do not want do be - would that be acceptable in terms of guinea pig welfare and the need for company? Because Neville lived in a trio with his two brothers (it was a rare yet successful relationship) and when we went to pick up Little One, there were five of them, all living together in the same hutch. Might this mean that they need more company than just viewing through wire mesh?

I have also been reading up on bonding, and I did it the way Saskia from LA Guinea Pig Rescue did it (just putting them in a smallish neutral space and letting them sniff and climb all over each other and hoping for the best) but reading the PDSA guide to guinea pig bonding which says to do it very gradually, I wonder if I did it all horribly wrong. Which way is the best to bond?
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I am sorry but serious bites are the end of the journey. Piggies of any gender will never be good friends after one. :(

Please contact your nearest rescue and speak to them.
 
I have read the Forum Guide to Bonding as well as other bonding guides and I find it all very contradictory. One of my problems/strong points is researching too much, which sometimes makes me unsure as to which opinion is the right one.
 
Wiebke said:
I am sorry but serious bites are the end of the journey. Piggies of any gender will never be friends. :(

Please contact your nearest rescue and speak to them.
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Even so, do you think that both piggies would benefit from interactions through the bars, just for the sake of companionship? That way, neither could get hurt or feel pressured to be with the other piggy.
 
Also, I am not sure about bonding now, because the young ones are supposed to be the easiest and Little One was only 6 or 7 weeks old. I also do not know if Neville will be ready for that.
 
I'd always prioritise the guides on here above anything.
They maybe wouldn't have got along however the bonding was done. It's always possible to end up in the situation you're in, and needing a plan B.
Your nearest rescue could give you options.
 
A head tilt could be serious as could any nose/mouth injury, and any bite that breaks the skin could cause an abscess if untreated. I have experienced an awful abscess from a seemingly trivial bite during a failed bonding, its a real possibility. Deliberate bites that deeply break the skin and cause bleeding, also multiple bites, are not misjudged warning scuffles I would say- that is a fail and go to plan B.
Please dont be tempted to over generalise about what should work best at what age etc as all piggies are individual characters, and as many of us with a memorable and bloody catastrophically failed bonding under our belt will realise, some piggies are more individual than others!
Piggies never watch the bonding videos or read the guides, some are tricky characters and some are fear aggressive and some just plain dislike each other.
If that is the case as it seems to be here from you describing injuries and bloodshed, please accept its a fail and get a prompt and thorough vet check before seeking out a plan B where your piggies can have the option of choosing more suitable companions!
 
I would stick to guides on here. I've found the guides invaluable and everyone on here is real people with real experience in owning (and bonding) guinea pigs.
I too read other guides to bonding but it makes sense that guinea pigs have to work out a hierarchy which can take a while. After the initial bond they need to be able to do that. Everytime you separate and then reintroduce they just have to start again and it's stressful for them.

I'm sorry it didn't work out
 
Oh you are in a tricky situation, poor thing. I haven't much to offer other than that I've split pigs that have had a go at each other and they seemed fine as thru-the-bars neighbours but it might not work for every pig. Just make sure each boy has enough room in his own bit to roam around comfortably - some folks start with a too-small cage for 2 boys (which will only aggravate their issues) and then just split it so they end up squashed into something a hamster would feel constrained in. I've also beat myself up over spectacularly failed bondings but I think most of it is down to piggy compatibility and as long as there is introduction on neutral ground it will either work or it won't. And with such a young one it's perhaps best that you found out now rather than in a few months when he'd be a rip-roaring muscular teenager. Get some advice from a rescue near you like has been suggested above x

My boar failed to bond with a sow pair because one of them didn't like him but they were happy as bar neighbours. Rather foolishly I tried again outside on neutral ground in the sunshine a few months later thinking everyone is used to each other/there's been no issues/they interact etc etc, but as soon as the barrier was removed you saw exactly the same patterns of behaviour and George was scarpering as fast as his chubby little legs could carry him!

Head-tilt is always going to be something significant - whether potentially fatal or relatively minor - because nobody walks around like that unless they have to especially when you have such a massive head. Good luck - you'll find a solution to suit you all. (Mine was to end up with 4 pigs!)
 
Laura M. said:
Also, I am not sure about bonding now, because the young ones are supposed to be the easiest and Little One was only 6 or 7 weeks old. I also do not know if Neville will be ready for that.
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If Little One is that young and living in a box in your bedroom he could become very anxious being alone, as you probably have considered, as you originally asked about what to do with them now. He needs company as soon as possible, which will never be living in with Neville.
 
Laura M. said:
Even so, do you think that both piggies would benefit from interactions through the bars, just for the sake of companionship? That way, neither could get hurt or feel pressured to be with the other piggy.
Click to expand...
Laura M. said:
Also, I am not sure about bonding now, because the young ones are supposed to be the easiest and Little One was only 6 or 7 weeks old. I also do not know if Neville will be ready for that.
Click to expand...

They can’t be in the same cage so the immediate need is to be in a divided cage so they can interact through the bars to stop either of them being lonely. However, the minimum for each piggy is 120x60cm so dividing a hutch is unlikely to leave each side big enough.
Having a rescue help you find compatible friends is best.

Age is largely irrelevant - compatibility is the key - two incompatible youngsters can fall out just as easily as any other combination
 
Piggies&buns said:
They can’t be in the same cage so the immediate need is to be in a divided cage so they can interact through the bars to stop either of them being lonely. However, the minimum for each piggy is 120x60cm so dividing a hutch is unlikely to leave each side big enough.
Having a rescue help you find a compatible friend is best.

Age is largely irrelevant - compatibility is the key - two incompatible youngsters can fall out just as easily as any other combination.
Click to expand...
The hutch Neville lives in was built by my father and I for a boar trio, so space is not a problem. Little One is only in my bedroom as a temporary measure, so that Neville can feel safe in familiar surroundings. I am just edgy about trying another bonding because there are two rescues near me, one which has no guinea pigs and another which only has a bonded pair. I also feel like if I get a guinea pig from a seller online, then if it does not work out, what do I do with them?
 
I live near Exeter (Mid Devon) in case anyone knows any piggies for adoption in my area.
 
Laura M. said:
The hutch Neville lives in was built by my father and I for a boar trio, so space is not a problem. Little One is only in my bedroom as a temporary measure, so that Neville can feel safe in familiar surroundings. I am just edgy about trying another bonding because there are two rescues near me, one which has no guinea pigs and another which only has a bonded pair. I also feel like if I get a guinea pig from a seller online, then if it does not work out, what do I do with them?
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Thats good The hutch is big enough to divide.
I would make a vet check and dividing the hutch a priority. It’s important Little One is alongside Neville ASAP as Little One is too young to be without any piggy interaction.

Getting a piggy from an online seller is a risk - if they don’t have compatibility, you would run the risk of ending up with multiple single piggies if the bonding failed
It looks like Bristol is your closest rescue according to our Rescue Locator.
 
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