Mystery Problem

[LilyThePiggy]

Hi, I was wondering if anyone could help me figure out what might be happening or maybe what to do next.

I took my guinea pig to the vet about 6 weeks ago because she was screaming when she peed which turned out to be stones. She got an operation to get them out but at the same time we noticed she had lost a lot of weight and her back end was soaking wet with some sort of brown liquid which wasn't her pee and her poo seemed normal. We were confused to what it might be but assumed that it would be related to her peeing problem and it would get better when she recovered from her operation.

It hasn't. Despite it being weeks since the operation with her now eating really well she is still skin and bones possible even skinnier than before the operation.
Just over a week ago her stomach got really bloated over just a few days (she looks heavily pregnant) but she's still skins and bones. Her bum had also gotten worse, it wasnt as wet but there was a little bit of some sort of brown sludge type stuff coming out. There was also hard brown circles which I think where scabs that she had caused herself.

I took her to the vet and they gave her an ultrasound but couldn't see much all they could see was fluid and didn't know what was wrong. We were given some antibiotics and were told that the next step might be an Xray to see if they can find anything.
Over the past few days the stomach issue and weight hasn't changed but there is more brown stuff coming out her bum and it seems to be sore now, so we took her back to the vet. It was a different vet who tried to give an ultrasound again but still couldn't find anything, she couldn't see through the fluid. She told us to stop the antibiotics because they weren't doing anything and gave us pain killers instead.
We were told that our options were to give her an Xray to investigate further, to let her continue the way she is with her pain killers or to put her to sleep.

She still feels really lively and pretty happy guinea pig so I'm reluctant to put her down. I just sort of lost for what I can do next so i was looking for any kind of advice really.
Thanks

 

[Siikibam]

I’m so sorry your girl is unwell. With regards the weight loss, you will have to step in with syringe feeding. Hay makes up the largest part of their diet so not eating enough leads to weight loss.

Switch to weighing her once daily at the same time (preferably mornings). You can then offer her a syringe feed of 5ml every two hours. You are aiming good for minimum 60ml in a 24 hour period. If you don’t have any recovery food or critical care to hand, you can use her pellets soaked in warm water.

Be aware that putting on lost weight after illness is harder than losing. You are aiming to help her maintain her weight and stop the loss. Antibiotics can sometimes kill the good bacteria and their appetite. So it’s often advised that you give a probiotic 1-2 hours before or after the antibiotic dose.

As for the brown liquid coming out her rear end, I have no clue I’m afraid. I’ll leave that to the more experienced members.

I hope that the antibiotics do start working soon and they can get to the bottom of it. While waiting for others to respond, please have a read of the guides I’ve linked to below. All the best.
Not Eating, Weight Loss And The Importance Of Syringe Feeding Fibre
Complete Syringe Feeding Guide

PS I just had a thought. What are her poos like in terms of shape and consistency?

 

[LilyThePiggy]

I’m so sorry your girl is unwell. With regards the weight loss, you will have to step in with syringe feeding. Hay makes up the largest part of their diet so not eating enough leads to weight loss.

Switch to weighing her once daily at the same time (preferably mornings). You can then offer her a syringe feed of 5ml every two hours. You are aiming good for minimum 60ml in a 24 hour period. If you don’t have any recovery food or critical care to hand, you can use her pellets soaked in warm water.

Be aware that putting on lost weight after illness is harder than losing. You are aiming to help her maintain her weight and stop the loss. Antibiotics can sometimes kill the good bacteria and their appetite. So it’s often advised that you give a probiotic 1-2 hours before or after the antibiotic dose.

As for the brown liquid coming out her rear end, I have no clue I’m afraid. I’ll leave that to the more experienced members.

I hope that the antibiotics do start working soon and they can get to the bottom of it. While waiting for others to respond, please have a read of the guides I’ve linked to below. All the best.
Not Eating, Weight Loss And The Importance Of Syringe Feeding Fibre
Complete Syringe Feeding Guide

PS I just had a thought. What are her poos like in terms of shape and consistency?

The problem is she has her appetite back and eats quite a bit hay now but the vet thought that the reason she got stones in the first place was she was getting too much calcium from her nuggets so I'm not sure how much to give. I dont think I need to syringe feed because she loves her nuggets and eats what I give straight away.

Her poos before the operation were kind of siet and sometimes odd shaped about more recently they're still a little soft but normal shape.

 

[Piggies&buns]

The problem is she has her appetite back and eats quite a bit hay now but the vet thought that the reason she got stones in the first place was she was getting too much calcium from her nuggets so I'm not sure how much to give. I dont think I need to syringe feed because she loves her nuggets and eats what I give straight away.

Her poos before the operation were kind of siet and sometimes odd shaped about more recently they're still a little soft but normal shape.

Hay is the most important part of their diet. Nuggets are not important - they do contain a lot of calcium and a piggy should only be fed one tablespoon of nuggets per day.
She is losing weight because her hay intake isnt high enough, it doesnt matter that she is eating nuggets because they are not what they need. If a piggy isnt eating enough hay to maintain their weight, then they do need syringe feeding to replace the lost hay intake. Eating nuggets doesnt count as they are not the major part of their food intake (hay is 80% of the daily food intake, suggest just 5%)

If she is bloated, was she given any gut medication? Bloat is a serious issue.

Its good she is being given painkillers.

If her poops are soft, then please remove veg from the diet. Offer her only hay to eat, weigh her daily and step in with syringe feeding a fibre rich recovery feed. You need to syringe feed enough in each 24 hour period to stop weight loss. How much that is depends on how much hay your piggy is eating independently - the less hay she eats, the more weight she will lose so the more syringe feed you have to give to stop the weight loss.

Is the brown liquid diarrhoea? This is also a serious medical issue and needs vet care.
If the brown liquid isnt poop, then she really needs to see a knowledgeable vet to find out what is going on.

Not Eating, Weight Loss And The Importance Of Syringe Feeding Fibre
Complete Syringe Feeding Guide

Digestive Disorders: Diarrhea - Bloat - GI Stasis (No Gut Movement) And Not Eating

Weight - Monitoring and Management

 

[LilyThePiggy]

Hay is the most important part of their diet. Nuggets are not important - they do contain a lot of calcium and a piggy should only be fed one tablespoon of nuggets per day.
She is losing weight because her hay intake isnt high enough, it doesnt matter that she is eating nuggets because they are not what they need. If a piggy isnt eating enough hay to maintain their weight, then they do need syringe feeding to replace the lost hay intake. Eating nuggets doesnt count as they are not the major part of their food intake (hay is 80% of the daily food intake, suggest just 5%)

If she is bloated, was she given any gut medication? Bloat is a serious issue.

Its good she is being given painkillers.

If her poops are soft, then please remove veg from the diet. Offer her only hay to eat, weigh her daily and step in with syringe feeding a fibre rich recovery feed. You need to syringe feed enough in each 24 hour period to stop weight loss. How much that is depends on how much hay your piggy is eating independently - the less hay she eats, the more weight she will lose so the more syringe feed you have to give to stop the weight loss.

Is the brown liquid diarrhoea? This is also a serious medical issue and needs vet care.
If the brown liquid isnt poop, then she really needs to see a knowledgeable vet to find out what is going on.

Not Eating, Weight Loss And The Importance Of Syringe Feeding Fibre
Complete Syringe Feeding Guide

Digestive Disorders: Diarrhea - Bloat - GI Stasis (No Gut Movement) And Not Eating

Weight - Monitoring and Management

The only medication she has been given was antibiotics which the last vet told me was pointless to continue using, and pain killers.

I don't have any recovery feed. I doubt my pet shop will sell any and I also don't think my vet will either but I'll phone and check tomorrow. I can order some online but it's going to take a while to arrive, what can I use until I can get some? I had a look at the links you gave but they said to use mushed up pellets so I'm confused. It sounds like a dumb question but pellets and nuggets are the same right?

Also I really don't know what the brown liquid is. I don't know what guinea pig diarrhoea looks like and I've tried to look up photos for reference but haven't found anything useful.
I don't know any knowledgeable vets near me.

 

[Piggies&buns]

The only medication she has been given was antibiotics which the last vet told me was pointless to continue using, and pain killers.

I don't have any recovery feed. I doubt my pet shop will sell any and I also don't think my vet will either but I'll phone and check tomorrow. I can order some online but it's going to take a while to arrive, what can I use until I can get some? I had a look at the links you gave but they said to use mushed up pellets so I'm confused. It sounds like a dumb question but pellets and nuggets are the same right?

Also I really don't know what the brown liquid is. I don't know what guinea pig diarrhoea looks like and I've tried to look up photos for reference but haven't found anything useful.
I don't know any knowledgeable vets near me.

Yes pellets and nuggets are the same thing. Mushing up pellets is the emergency measure when you don’t have recovery feed in. You can get recovery feed from Amazon.

Probiotics, Recovery Foods And Vitamin C: Overview With Product Links

 

[LilyThePiggy]

Yes pellets and nuggets are the same thing. Mushing up pellets is the emergency measure when you don’t have recovery feed in. You can get recovery feed from Amazon.

Probiotics, Recovery Foods And Vitamin C: Overview With Product Links

So would I just wait until I can get actual recovery feed instead of syringe feeding something she's already eating? I'm also slightly worried about the time it would take for the recovery feed to arrive, our amazon parcels have been taking a while recently.
Sorry, I'm probably asking lots of obvious questions but i'm just really confused

 

[Piggies&buns]

Dont worry about asking questions - we are here to help.

I think I may missed one of your posts above before now, so just to clarify

Are you weighing her daily?
Is she eating enough hay independently to maintain her weight?
Eating nuggets/pellets isnt the primary concern - ordinarily they should never have more than one tablespoon of pellets per day and as that amount only makes 5% of the daily food intake, they simply dont count and wont maintain their weight on pellets alone. Eating enough hay to maintain her weight is the main concern.

However, if she is not eating enough hay and is still losing weight, then you step in and support feed. You do it immediately you notice a health problem which is resulting in weight loss. You aim of syringe feeding is to replace the hay a piggy is not eating for themselves, stabilise the weight and keep the gut functioning.
You use mushed up pellets when you dont have recovery feed in stock.

Ordinarily, too many pellets are not healthy. They should only have one tablespoon per pig per day. They do contain a lot of calcium and too much calcium can contribute to the formation of bladder stones. If a piggy isnt eating enough for themselves then that has to be put aside and you syringe feed them as much mushed up pellets or recovery feed as needed to get them through the crisis and maintain their weight.

 

[PigglePuggle]

Sorry your piggy is unwell
The brown liquid could be diarrhoea- if it is, there wouldnt be any normal poos. Fell free to post photos of the poos and the brown liquid- we dont mind a bit of piggy yuck here! But when piggy pee oxidises on contact with air it also goes quite surprisingly orange-brown coloured.
Perhaps the vet could take a pee sample and do simple dip stick tests to check for blood, protein, bacteria in the pee? And take a poop sample to check for gut infections?

 

[LilyThePiggy]

Dont worry about asking questions - we are here to help.

I think I may missed one of your posts above before now, so just to clarify

Are you weighing her daily?
Is she eating enough hay independently to maintain her weight?
Eating nuggets/pellets isnt the primary concern - ordinarily they should never have more than one tablespoon of pellets per day and as that amount only makes 5% of the daily food intake, they simply dont count and wont maintain their weight on pellets alone. Eating enough hay to maintain her weight is the main concern.

However, if she is not eating enough hay and is still losing weight, then you step in and support feed. You do it immediately you notice a health problem which is resulting in weight loss. You aim of syringe feeding is to replace the hay a piggy is not eating for themselves, stabilise the weight and keep the gut functioning.
You use mushed up pellets when you dont have recovery feed in stock.

Ordinarily, too many pellets are not healthy. They should only have one tablespoon per pig per day. They do contain a lot of calcium and too much calcium can contribute to the formation of bladder stones. If a piggy isnt eating enough for themselves then that has to be put aside and you syringe feed them as much mushed up pellets or recovery feed as needed to get them through the crisis and maintain their weight.

Thank you for explaining, I understand a lot better now.
To answer you questions, I haven't been weighing daily but will be from today. She was weighed at the vets both last week and this week and was the same weight and I have been watching her eat hay regularly so I think shes only just eating enough to maintain her weight.

 

[LilyThePiggy]

This is what she looks like.
It's pretty gross so just warning in advance.
I didn't mention earlier but it also smells quite a bit

 

[Claire W]

That looks like diarrhoea / soft poos to me especially if it smells bad

 

[Piggies&buns]

If she is no longer losing weight, then that is good - you may not need to syringe feed her but definitely weigh her daily from now on so you can monitor her more closely though. Watching them eat hay is very deceptive. If she loses more than normal fluctuations each day, then be prepared to step back in with the syringe feeding.
Digestive Disorders: Diarrhea - Bloat - GI Stasis (No Gut Movement) And Not Eating
Do be aware that regaining lost weight after illness takes a lot longer than losing it does.

 

[LilyThePiggy]

Would it be diarrhoea if shes still producing poos at the same time?
Also I have pet cleaning wipes and i was wondering if i should use them on the area or if that would irritate her. Or maybe just use tissues to help her stag clean?

 

[Free Ranger]

I had a little sow who got a urine infection and her girl bits were sore and ulcerated (where the skin has broken). She was sorted with antibiotics in the end but in the short term my vet told me to gently rinse her bum area in warm water, very gently pat dry, and apply a little Sudocrem to protect the tender area beneath. If you don't know it this is a thick antiseptic barrier cream commonly used for nappy rash in babies (or for sunburn or eczema) that you can get off the shelf from the supermarket or from Boots (don't tell them it's for animals - they won't sell it to you).
Some people don't like this long term but in the short term it is healing and very effective.

 

[LilyThePiggy]

I had a little sow who got a urine infection and her girl bits were sore and ulcerated (where the skin has broken). She was sorted with antibiotics in the end but in the short term my vet told me to gently rinse her bum area in warm water, very gently pat dry, and apply a little Sudocrem to protect the tender area beneath. If you don't know it this is a thick antiseptic barrier cream commonly used for nappy rash in babies (or for sunburn or eczema) that you can get off the shelf from the supermarket or from Boots (don't tell them it's for animals - they won't sell it to you).
Some people don't like this long term but in the short term it is healing and very effective.

Oh I didn't realise you could use sudocrem on guinea pigs. When I cleaned it it looked like the skin was broken and we have sudocrem in the house so I'll try the way you said. It sounds like a nice gently way. Thank you

 

[Free Ranger]

Just gently pat on small amounts - rubbing can tear the tender skin further. You might consider bedding her on fleece, pieces of towel, or something without bits (shavings or hay) - my sleeping areas are usually bedding with hay but while my girl was creamed I gave her something soft to lie on so she didn't get it all stuck to her. Of course she'll just wade through her hay anyway: we can but try for a while! My vet also advised use for a case of bumblefoot but some people on the forum warned that longer term use can actually thin the skin - it's not something we've seen but we've not needed to use it for longer than a couple of weeks.

The diarrhoea description is a funny one. Piggies produce two types of poop: the firm 'pellet' poops are the genuine waste poops but there are softer caecotrophs... fudgy, squishy blobs of poop that piggies eat again to get maximum nutrition from their high fibre diet. As owners we don't usually see evidence of this but recently my older boar has to be un-bunged (impaction) so I can see how this type of poop is much squishier because it binds his pellet poops together. It's produced by a different type of digestion and they normally just eat it straight from the source! I'm wondering if it's possible that something is going wrong with caecotroph production making the squishy poops properly runny... but I don't know if this is even possible. I hear that they are mainly produced at night but I don't know if she is messier in the morning than she gets during the day - it's probably hard to tell.

Does she have a friend? Sometimes piggies with digestive upsets are helped by 'poop soup' from a healthy companion to replenish the gut bacteria. Take VERY fresh poops from the friend and squish in warm water then mix with a little bit of crushed pellet or powdered syringe food (your vet is bound to stock some of this as they are widely used for rabbits and other animals too) and feed to your poorly girl. If she's still hungry and eating you shouldn't need to syringe - they often take it from a spoon or a bowl left in the cage overnight. Don't syringe the neat liquid - apart from it tasting like waste poops it's a risky process as they can inhale it and cause more serious respiratory issues.

@Wiebke do you know of digestive upsets that can mess up caecotroph production but waste poops are still pretty normal? We've been fortunate so far to escape diarrhoea so have no experience here.