My shelter does "play dates"

Scooter Pie

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I know from reading forums for years that this isn't best practices. I have a sow (Peggy, 2 years old) who lost her cage mate about a month ago and the shelter I work with has a possible match who's in foster care. They would like me to bring Peggy there this Saturday to "meet" her.

Part of me wishes I could trust them fully as they have been helping piggies find homes for many years. I thought about asking if the foster could come stay with me for a few days and try bonding and keep them together permanently if it works....as Ive gathered from experts here 😌

But I feel like I need to respect their methods and will be doing it their way. Before I knew about not separating them again if bonding worked, I had a pair that I had together and then separated (say 30 minutes then apart 24 hours, then an hour and apart another day, and then finally moving in permanently) and they were best friends.

Any thoughts?
 
If they have successes doing it there way then I would go with that. Sometimes it can be better to separate them then reintroduce them, especially when dealing with sows and if things are getting tense as it gives them a chance to cool down. They will remember their first encounter and will have the measure of each other, so it doesn't mean they are going back to square one each time.
 
Those kind of stop start bondings shouldn’t be done with boars and while ideally bonding is still a one time event with sows, it’s can be a bit less of an issue if you do stop a bonding.
 
I’m just wondering how this is different to “speed dating”? Where if they appear to get on you take them home and carry on. If they clearly don’t then you stop it there. I suspect I’m misunderstanding you though…
 
I’m just wondering how this is different to “speed dating”? Where if they appear to get on you take them home and carry on. If they clearly don’t then you stop it there. I suspect I’m misunderstanding you though…

Speed dating is getting them through acceptance at the rescue but then taking them home and finishing the bonding yourself as soon as you get back. The piggies are only separated in this case on the journey home as they wouldn’t be far enough into the bonding to be in a confined carrier together (Risk factor for panicking and a fight).

This play date the OP is talking about is putting them together for a short time but separating them anyway even if things are going well, put them together again the next day and again even if it’s going well, separate them again. It’s not the way we would encourage bonding to be done as it interrupts the process, definitely not something to be done with boars.
 
I know from reading forums for years that this isn't best practices. I have a sow (Peggy, 2 years old) who lost her cage mate about a month ago and the shelter I work with has a possible match who's in foster care. They would like me to bring Peggy there this Saturday to "meet" her.

Part of me wishes I could trust them fully as they have been helping piggies find homes for many years. I thought about asking if the foster could come stay with me for a few days and try bonding and keep them together permanently if it works....as Ive gathered from experts here 😌

But I feel like I need to respect their methods and will be doing it their way. Before I knew about not separating them again if bonding worked, I had a pair that I had together and then separated (say 30 minutes then apart 24 hours, then an hour and apart another day, and then finally moving in permanently) and they were best friends.

Any thoughts?

Hi

We call 'play dates' at a shelter 'speed dating' at the rescue. It is a quick way to check for personality compatibility for those bondings that fail with the acceptance phase and at that quite effective in this respect- especially with boars where you can often see within half an hour whether they vibe or not. It doesn't work for the cases that fail more narrowly over leadership issues several days in. I have rescue dated and adopted that way several bereaved piggies myself. But I have found some very happy and loving bonds that way - not necessarily with my own favourite but with who my sows chose and who I came to also love very much once I got to know them.
Since I don't usually do boars only pairs, I have found rescue dating a good way of finding a new 'husboar' (neutered boar) for sows of mine; ideally from a rescue that had a batch for my girls to date. We have not always come home with my favourite date (#1) and have occasionally had to go as far as candidate #3 but have come home with best possible partner.

The problem with home dating on spec is control and ownership with can run very quickly into legal quagmire and care issues if people are allowed to take piggies home for a try. A rescue may allow a fosterer of theirs or somebody whose experience they personally trust to do this but it is generally rare.
The vast majority of piggies I have adopted this way were on the understanding that I would find them another solution with other piggies of mine if the intended bonding failed - which I had to do quite a few times; but again, this happened on a basis of the rescues knowing and trusting me for several years and me having a number of groups of various sizes.

Here is a bit more information on it: Rescues (Adoption and Dating), Shops, Breeders or Online? - What to consider when getting guinea pigs

PS: Guinea pigs don't do play time; each meeting with piggies they are not bonded with is a full-on dating session as far as they are concerned. Bonding by little meetings over several days cuts right across their own species wiring and is extremely frustrating for them if they are not given the chance to work through their own quite precise bonding manual.

The term the shelter uses is not quite ideal but the method works for finding a good personality match quickly as long as the dating supervisor is an experienced bonder - and that kind of personality match will survive a separation if you only start the adoption process after a successful meeting since they have not yet fully bonded. You can abort a promising bonding in the early stages but what is not recommended is a bonding going perfectly well that is interrupted several times unnecessarily.

When speed-dating you can usually spot very early on whether a bond is likely to work or fail (or very much remains in the maybe zone) quite quickly - you learn to pick up on the more subtle body language and exchange of signs. It allows you to home in on those perfect matches that will last a life.
You have to then re-start the full bonding process at home on neutral ground after the adoption but in the knowledge that the bond will very likely succeed. A good personality will thankfully survive meddling by humans who do not understand the natural bonding manual.

I hope that this helps you?

Speed-dated life-long love in 2011: Terfel (front) was rescue dated by my two cataract sows Taffy and Tegyd. Tegyd (on the right) had major fear-aggression issues but was instantly charmed by a delighted young Terfel who adored his blind ladies - later joined by another 'unbondable' widowed rescue sow whose rescue cage was urgently needed for a large neglect emergency intake. They had about an hour together in a pen at the rescue before I brought them home in separate carriers and then fully bonded them here. Terfel followed the last of cataract wives only three weeks later after a quick decline in 2015...

Speed dating is a great way for finding these instant personality matches. It works for both genders as long as you understand that piggies have to always restart the bonding process right from the start with each new meeting unless they can work past the leadership sort-out and into the group establishment phase. Any separation in the earlier bonding stages means that the bond is not fully established. Too much meddling can contribute to a fail because it is a major added stress factor and a huge frustration for the separated piggies who are desperate to get on with the whole process.
Sadly, bonding in small stages has become a favourite method especially in the USA due to human lack of understanding the bonding process. :(

1694158347939.jpeg

Speed dated sows: My bereaved Minx met equally bereaved Dizzy (then Daisy) for speed dating at the rescue. They basically snuggled up together and refused to be parted. The bonding process was with minimal dominance; they more were like 'Oh, you keep the teacups in this cupboard? I used to have them in with the plates.'

Here you can see Dizzy on the right snuggling with Minx while she does a social piggy wash to signal friendship.
IMG_4032_edited-1.jpg
 
Thank you all! So it sounds like they ARE talking about "speed dating" and I just got the terms confused. I have to double check but I think the idea is put them together at the shelter and see if it's ok, hopefully for about an hour...and then come home in separate carriers and go right into a neutral pen when we get home.

I guess I have to think about changing my cage set up if this works out. Currently Peggy is side by side with my other pair and I'm assuming it wouldn't be a good idea to keep it that way if the new piggie who's name is Mandy moves in. We're going to build a new C&C floor for them anyway so it's a good time to rearrange.

Since we're sharing pics 🐷🐷🐷💖🐷
Look at the giant bowl of pellets 😵‍💫 I bite my tongue...at least it's Oxbow.
IMG_4517.webpIMG_4528.webp

Peggy is "ok" being next to her neighbors for now but I really hope this works. She needs someone to shake her butt at!

IMG_4478.webpIMG_4450.webp
 
There is no reason why they cannot remain side by side in pairs.

Let us know how it goes! Fingers crossed they like each other
 
Speed dating is getting them through acceptance at the rescue but then taking them home and finishing the bonding yourself as soon as you get back. The piggies are only separated in this case on the journey home as they wouldn’t be far enough into the bonding to be in a confined carrier together (Risk factor for panicking and a fight).

This play date the OP is talking about is putting them together for a short time but separating them anyway even if things are going well, put them together again the next day and again even if it’s going well, separate them again. It’s not the way we would encourage bonding to be done as it interrupts the process, definitely not something to be done with boars.
Totally agree, it just read to me more like a speed dating model than a play date model but totally appreciate the difference 👍
 
Thank you all! So it sounds like they ARE talking about "speed dating" and I just got the terms confused. I have to double check but I think the idea is put them together at the shelter and see if it's ok, hopefully for about an hour...and then come home in separate carriers and go right into a neutral pen when we get home.

I guess I have to think about changing my cage set up if this works out. Currently Peggy is side by side with my other pair and I'm assuming it wouldn't be a good idea to keep it that way if the new piggie who's name is Mandy moves in. We're going to build a new C&C floor for them anyway so it's a good time to rearrange.

Since we're sharing pics 🐷🐷🐷💖🐷
Look at the giant bowl of pellets 😵‍💫 I bite my tongue...at least it's Oxbow.
View attachment 231895View attachment 231896

Peggy is "ok" being next to her neighbors for now but I really hope this works. She needs someone to shake her butt at!

View attachment 231897View attachment 231898

All the best! It is better to find out at the shelter whether they gel or not.

Mandy is a pretty girl. Fingers firmly crossed!
 
Thank you all for the replies! I confirmed that plan is to take Mandy home and continue bonding if things look good at the shelter. The one volunteer will be bringing a few more piggies up from another dog and cat shelter tomorrow as well...so if it's not a match, there could be others.

Just today Peggy is starting to look a little sad. I hope it works out 💖 And I will definitely let you know how it goes!
 
Thank you all for the replies! I confirmed that plan is to take Mandy home and continue bonding if things look good at the shelter. The one volunteer will be bringing a few more piggies up from another dog and cat shelter tomorrow as well...so if it's not a match, there could be others.

Just today Peggy is starting to look a little sad. I hope it works out 💖 And I will definitely let you know how it goes!

Great that Peggy will have choices. That ups the chances of her coming home with a new friend.

Here is our step-by-step bonding guide for conducting the full bonding at home after the the most important first hurdle has been taken. Please also keep in mind that the whole bonding process actually takes about two weeks until the new group is fully established in their hierarchy and in their territory. If you have any concerns, please rather leave the two girls in the bonding pen overnight or even separation and restart again in the morning, as long as they have been able to work through a large bit of the hierarchy establishment. This allows them to bond on even footing without the extra stress from the territorial aspect. This is even more important when you have a newbie moving into an established cage. The more of the roughest part of the bonding process you can get out of the way on neutral ground, the less dominance renewal there is in the cage. There is no rush at this stage - you have to manage each bonding journey on its own merits and individual dynamics.
Bonding and Interaction: Illustrated social behaviours and bonding dynamics
Sows: Behaviour and female health problems (including ovarian cysts) (includes a chapter on sow dominance during the post-intro group establishment stage)

But there is nothing like a bereaved piggy getting their sparkle back when in new company and there is also nothing like the moment a rescue adoptee that paradise on earth exists and that it is theirs. These are priceless moments.
Just keep an open mind and allow Peggy to have her say.

Fingers very firmly crossed!
 
Thank you! I'm definitely planning on keeping them in the bonding pen for a good 24 hours or more, because I want to really deep clean Peggy's current cage and make some new fleece flooring for them so it's new for both of them.

So you are saying that if I had any hesitations, they could be separated overnight tonight after being together several hours today with close supervision? That would put Peggy back in her current cage and the new friend in the bonding pen with more hideys. Would that still keep the bonding pen neutral if I removed the hideys the next day?
 
Thank you! I'm definitely planning on keeping them in the bonding pen for a good 24 hours or more, because I want to really deep clean Peggy's current cage and make some new fleece flooring for them so it's new for both of them.

So you are saying that if I had any hesitations, they could be separated overnight tonight after being together several hours today with close supervision? That would put Peggy back in her current cage and the new friend in the bonding pen with more hideys. Would that still keep the bonding pen neutral if I removed the hideys the next day?

Yes, the bonding pen stays neutral (i.e. shared ) territory.

Please only separate sows or mixed gender piggies when tensions are persistently high and the bonding process is no longer processing as a last ditch measure in case the tension is caused by stress overload and not by a problem with the bond itself. If tensions arise again within minutes on the following day, then the bond has failed.

This measure is generally more successful when bonding a new piggy or two into group, which can be a bit overwhelming for some or if you are dealing with a case of fear-aggression but both piggies still want to be together when the chips are down. In this case, you can try to have bonding sessions every few days for as long as the problem sow is going on overload but he piggies are still confirming their willingness through the bars.

'A few hours' means at least 4-5 hours or as soon as you see behaviours described as hostile/highly defensive in the guide.
If at all possible, please do not intervene and do not interrupt. Any intervention of yours is an added stress factor. You can however have some hay, fresh grass or pellets on stand-by to help diffuse any tensions as long as ou ar aware that the piggies need to sort out any disagreements for a successful bond.

I hope that this helps?
 
Yes, that helps. I think I misread/differences in american vs english phrasing in your original post. So do not separate unless it's obvious that it's not going well.

Luckily (?) I did once witness two pigs doing that face-off behavior with eyes locked, noises from both escalating, and both raising a front paw before one launched at the other, within the first 5 minutes together. As long as I don't see THAT....I should be able to breathe. 😵‍💫
 
Yes, that helps. I think I misread/differences in american vs english phrasing in your original post. So do not separate unless it's obvious that it's not going well.

Luckily (?) I did once witness two pigs doing that face-off behavior with eyes locked, noises from both escalating, and both raising a front paw before one launched at the other, within the first 5 minutes together. As long as I don't see THAT....I should be able to breathe. 😵‍💫

Keep in mind that the lunging is defence behaviour from the losing side who is not yet willing to concede the fact and is fearful for herself - it all hinges on how the winner of the chinning up contest reacts - whether they stay cool and do not push it or whether they proceed to push their advantage. In the latter case that is usually the end and a classic fail at the leadership stage.
 
Keep in mind that the lunging is defence behaviour from the losing side who is not yet willing to concede the fact and is fearful for herself - it all hinges on how the winner of the chinning up contest reacts - whether they stay cool and do not push it or whether they proceed to push their advantage. In the latter case that is usually the end and a classic fail at the leadership stage.

Anyway, I sincerely hope that your girl will find a new friend and that the happiness of having company will make for a minimal and benign bonding process. When piggies really want to be together the bonding is more of a formal going through the motions than a real contest. Rescue dating with potentially several piggies gives you the chance of finding a happy match.
 
They've been home for a little over an hour. I think it's going GREAT although we're all exhausted and emotional. Mandy is clearly very young! Like 3-6 months. Sharp little nails that have never been cut and her ears stand up. Nothing too dramatic has happened. They did some chasing and chin-upping and a little lunging but nothing I thought to break up. They both found comfortable corners and are resting!

I will want to share more about how the initial meeting at the shelter went a little later. For now, here are some pics!IMG_4578.webpIMG_4582.webpIMG_4595.webpIMG_4599.webp
 
2 hours in, just about. Mandy is very chatty and gets very talkative when Peggy gets near her. They rested in opposite corners and then were grazing on the hay pile near each other. Both seem kind of jumpy. I get nervous when they start noticing each other and Peggy definitely is establishing dominance. Ive seen her nose punch Mandy's side but then they go back to whatever it is they were doing.

I did find a small tuft of fur on the floor... I will probably be posting a lot for reassurance over the next several hours!
 
They've been home for a little over an hour. I think it's going GREAT although we're all exhausted and emotional. Mandy is clearly very young! Like 3-6 months. Sharp little nails that have never been cut and her ears stand up. Nothing too dramatic has happened. They did some chasing and chin-upping and a little lunging but nothing I thought to break up. They both found comfortable corners and are resting!

I will want to share more about how the initial meeting at the shelter went a little later. For now, here are some pics!View attachment 231981View attachment 231982View attachment 231983View attachment 231984

What a delightful little girl! All the best. She is clearly not able to challenge but has obviously found it all a little overwhelming; the tuft of fur should be seen in this respect. Being vocal is a good sign.

Piggies rest in between rounds of dominance. Give them time to work things out and settle down. I hope that they will ideally come to rest close to each other at some stage.
 
They're 4 hours in now. Peggy's "going after" Mandy and Mandy continues to chatter and run away as fast as she can. Peggy's chased her a little but only half way around the perimeter of the pen and then she stops. Right now they're being pretty active - Peggy approaches and Mandy runs away.

Does that sound like Mandy is submitting? I haven't seen her try to strike back at Peggy at all.

At the shelter when they had their first contact, the first thing Peggy did was groom her a little bit on her side and then around her ears. I still need to process the "technique" the volunteer had for bonding but let's just say for now that I was happy to get them home as fast as I could and get them into my own bonding pen at home 😵‍💫

Update: now it's actually been 6 hours and I forgot to hit post 😆 But now it seems like Peggy is settling down and they've gone near each other without Mandy running away or Peggy chasing her. I even saw Peggy lay down much closer to where Mandy was laying. Still chattering away though, but she is eating well 💖

Ive got my air mattress set up so I can try to sleep next to them tonight 😴🐷🐷
 
Hmmm...it's 2:15am and I'm trying to sleep next to them. Mandy is just chattering constantly...for hours. They've rested and been quiet here and there a few times. She really squeals when Peggy goes near her. I wonder if she was ever around other pigs. If she's young and was found outside a few months ago, and was alone in her foster home. Could she just be terrified of her new friend?

I'm just tired now. Don't want to interrupt the process. They seem to be taking a break and have settled down now.

Peggy definitely squeaked and chattered for hours the first day too.
 
Mandy's 782g with tiny sharp nails so I'm guessing she's 6 months. She and Peggy moved into their 2x4 C&C this evening and they seem fine! Mandy's settled down with all the chatter. She still wheeks when Peggy gets near her as she runs away. But Ive seen a few times where they were closer together and noone got annoyed. Thanks everyone for the support!

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They're 4 hours in now. Peggy's "going after" Mandy and Mandy continues to chatter and run away as fast as she can. Peggy's chased her a little but only half way around the perimeter of the pen and then she stops. Right now they're being pretty active - Peggy approaches and Mandy runs away.

Does that sound like Mandy is submitting? I haven't seen her try to strike back at Peggy at all.

At the shelter when they had their first contact, the first thing Peggy did was groom her a little bit on her side and then around her ears. I still need to process the "technique" the volunteer had for bonding but let's just say for now that I was happy to get them home as fast as I could and get them into my own bonding pen at home 😵‍💫

Update: now it's actually been 6 hours and I forgot to hit post 😆 But now it seems like Peggy is settling down and they've gone near each other without Mandy running away or Peggy chasing her. I even saw Peggy lay down much closer to where Mandy was laying. Still chattering away though, but she is eating well 💖

Ive got my air mattress set up so I can try to sleep next to them tonight 😴🐷🐷

As long as there is no aggression in it, just sit firm and let the piggies sort things out. The hardest bit for any owner is to not interfere, especially through the roughest parts of the hierarchy sort-out. It looks rougher to us than it actually is since the piggies know what they are doing. They know that acceptance has happened and that they are now working out and confirming who is going to be the boss. Loud chatter and submission squealing from especially younger piggies signals that they are conceding; it is the appropriate response.

Peggy is a bit less confident in herself at the moment but she will come round. The time to make friends will come after the end of the initial 2 weeks bonding period - in the latter part the girls are going to work out which shape their relationship will take. The dominance doesn't say anything about what their relationship is going to truly grow into over time but it is sounding like everything is going perfectly fine and is on the milder side of things. :)

Mandy is insisting on having her personal sphere respected but that will gradually erode. The size of that personal sphere in a dominant sow depends on how confident she is in herself. Being very stand-offish is however perfectly normal behaviour for the group leader at this stage and will eventually disappear - some days down the line but it can take a few weeks in more extreme cases. It can still be start of a very loving bond later on. This is not about friendship, this is currently about leadership. ;)

They make a lovely pair, though. Just be patient. Your girls have bonded successfully and they are not going to fall out now. They are just currently sitting at the lawyer's hammering out the small print of their marriage contract now that they have got the main clauses down on paper. I hope that this image helps you to understand where the bonding process is currently at.

They can move into their cage now, as long as you only have hides and tunnels with two exits in there, two water bottles spaced well apart and sprinkle feeding pellets and vet around the cage in order to make it easy for Mandy to dash off when Peggy reinforces her right to be the first at the food and the one to have the first right to any prime estate that takes her fancy. It's all part of the bonding process fine print behaviours. ;)
 
As long as there is no aggression in it, just sit firm and let the piggies sort things out. The hardest bit for any owner is to not interfere, especially through the roughest parts of the hierarchy sort-out. It looks rougher to us than it actually is since the piggies know what they are doing. They know that acceptance has happened and that they are now working out and confirming who is going to be the boss. Loud chatter and submission squealing from especially younger piggies signals that they are conceding; it is the appropriate response.

Peggy is a bit less confident in herself at the moment but she will come round. The time to make friends will come after the end of the initial 2 weeks bonding period - in the latter part the girls are going to work out which shape their relationship will take. The dominance doesn't say anything about what their relationship is going to truly grow into over time but it is sounding like everything is going perfectly fine and is on the milder side of things. :)

Mandy is insisting on having her personal sphere respected but that will gradually erode. The size of that personal sphere in a dominant sow depends on how confident she is in herself. Being very stand-offish is however perfectly normal behaviour for the group leader at this stage and will eventually disappear - some days down the line but it can take a few weeks in more extreme cases. It can still be start of a very loving bond later on. This is not about friendship, this is currently about leadership. ;)

They make a lovely pair, though. Just be patient. Your girls have bonded successfully and they are not going to fall out now. They are just currently sitting at the lawyer's hammering out the small print of their marriage contract now that they have got the main clauses down on paper. I hope that this image helps you to understand where the bonding process is currently at.

They can move into their cage now, as long as you only have hides and tunnels with two exits in there, two water bottles spaced well apart and sprinkle feeding pellets and vet around the cage in order to make it easy for Mandy to dash off when Peggy reinforces her right to be the first at the food and the one to have the first right to any prime estate that takes her fancy. It's all part of the bonding process fine print behaviours. ;)
Thank you for taking the time to share this with me! It was definitely hard but I'm proud of myself for not intervening in any way!

Mandy is getting a little more comfortable around Peggy. She dashes away and squeaks a little, but less full on LOUD wheeks/squealing. I have a very large hay pile in the middle with little snacks sprinkled all around. Ive been hand feeding Mandy her pellets since we have a strict 1 tablespoon a day per pig pellet rule around here and Peggy would eat too many if she could.

The best thing is that Mandy seems to like being petted! I can scratch her ears and pet her back a little, when she's looking relaxed. I haven't been able to pet any of my piggies since my original two...Mandy is my 7th 😍🐷🥹IMG_4638.webp
 
Thank you for taking the time to share this with me! It was definitely hard but I'm proud of myself for not intervening in any way!

Mandy is getting a little more comfortable around Peggy. She dashes away and squeaks a little, but less full on LOUD wheeks/squealing. I have a very large hay pile in the middle with little snacks sprinkled all around. Ive been hand feeding Mandy her pellets since we have a strict 1 tablespoon a day per pig pellet rule around here and Peggy would eat too many if she could.

The best thing is that Mandy seems to like being petted! I can scratch her ears and pet her back a little, when she's looking relaxed. I haven't been able to pet any of my piggies since my original two...Mandy is my 7th 😍🐷🥹View attachment 232071

They will settle well together in their own time and may become best of friends eentually. There is no aggression in it from what you mention so if I were you, I'd take a deep breath and relax. The first season will get a bit livelier but that is more in the way of bonding more closely through the shared excess of hormones and is not an occasion for a fall out. You are well past the rough bit now.

What a lovely surprise to find a new cuddle pig! 😍
 
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