Males fighting

[Rocket_and_Rex]

Hi! So I have two males, about two years old each, and I bought them together, (from a pet shop, most likely brothers.) They have not had much trouble in the past, on the rare maybe two occasions they would need to be split up for a night, then go back to being together, and would be fin. For context, they have a giant DIY cage with a big litterbox and lots of other sources of hay. They get lost of fresh vegetables, and overall have a good life, going out into the garden during summer aswell. However, recently they have been fighting, the black one in particular has shown dominance, and is overall the more dominant. He has started chasing the other one round the cage, and started fights. Usually I take out the other one to let the black one (Rex) cool off, and then half an hour later, top up hay, veggies early, change water, pellets and do routine, and they have a clean fresh cage to shar, which always works and everything goes back to normal. Today they had a massive fight, I even got slightly bitten, and now whenever I walk past the cage carrying the other one (Rocket) Rex starts chattering. I fear I won't be able to do what I normally do, because Rex had a chunk of Rocket's hair in his mouth. ( I thoroughly checked Rocket for any signs of blood at all, nothing, he seems fine aswell, just skittish from the fight.) I'm worried about Rocket, even though I've checked him over and over, and I also worry why Rex has suddenly become more dominant. Everyone says it's because of the heat, and that makes sense. I'm adding a fan to the piggie cage after I've finished and seeing if that makes a difference. Also given them both some fresh grass to help a bit, and hay. Rex is still chattering when he hears Rocket. What do I do, as separation is not really an option right now. (I can separate them, but if this is one of those cases where they can no longer be together, them living in two separate cages is not an option.)

 

[Piggies&buns]

I’m sorry to hear this.

Sadly a full fight means that you cannot put them together again at all, and their separation does now need to be permanent. A fight means tensions and issues have come to a head and their bond is sadly over.
Please do not attempt to put them back together as it is like it to cause another fight. A fan isn’t going to make any difference to their bond. I can’t see the heat as a catalyst to the issues as likely - a fight comes down to a character clash or underlying issue coming to the surface.
They will need to be in separate but side by side cages with each cage measuring a minimum of 120x60cm.

Boars: Teenage, Bullying, Fighting, Fall-outs And What Next?

If this is out of character for Rex then please have him vet checked. Any change in behaviour can sometimes be due to a brewing health issue. I would advise them you switch from the routine weekly weight checks and instead carry out daily weight checks for the time being to ensure he is eating enough hay

 

[VickiA]

I’m afraid they cannot go back together.

 

[Rocket_and_Rex]

I’m sorry to hear this.

Sadly a full fight means that you cannot put them together again at all, and their separation does now need to be permanent. A fight means tensions and issues have come to a head and their bond is sadly over.
Please do not attempt to put them back together as it is like it to cause another fight. A fan isn’t going to make any difference to their bond. I can’t see the heat as a catalyst to the issues as likely - a fight comes down to a character clash or underlying issue coming to the surface.
They will need to be in separate but side by side cages with each cage measuring a minimum of 120x60cm.

Boars: Teenage, Bullying, Fighting, Fall-outs And What Next?

If this is out of character for Rex then please have him vet checked. Any change in behaviour can sometimes be due to a brewing health issue. I would advise them you switch from the routine weekly weight checks and instead carry out daily weight checks for the time being to ensure he is eating enough hay

Thank you for your reply!
I did forget to mention that the past fights-ish that they've had have been during the summer when Rex has gotten a bit hot sometimes, and has been in a bit of a mood. I've also heard that full moons can sometimes affect animals, we had one of those recently, and also Rex is a full black guinea pig, so sometimes the heat affects him a bit more. I just put Rex in a box with the fan pointed directly at his box, he calmed down almost immediately. The fight also wasn't a full fight, it seemed like more aggressive chasing. I will separate them overnight, usually during feeding time after separation for a night, they wheek louder for each other during veggie time. I will be very cautious though, it's just that Rex instantly seemed calmer after the fan, so I am wondering if the heat could have anything to do with it. I would like to know if this information changes anything or not for now.

 

[Piggies&buns]

If he was hot enough to become frustrated then I would look at your room cooling measures as well.
If there is a problem with their bond, cooling him down won’t make any difference, nor a full moon causing it. (I have two black guinea pigs myself)
The separation is likely what has helped him calm down (but repeated separations should not be done with boars - their bond either works or it doesn’t).
How is rocket behaving - as that is a key factor here. If he is happier now they are apart then the bond is over.

You have to be very careful not to misinterpret behaviours once they are separated - most of them don’t mean they want to be back together, most are territorial and hostile. Things such as laying either side against the dividers - it’s not a friendly gesture, it’s hostility and territory marking. Wheeking far veggie time would also not necessarily be a sign they want each other

You referred to it as a ‘massive fight’.
Chasing is not fighting and there is no need to separate for normal chasing.
If the chasing was so aggressive that it could lead to a fight and in fact one piggy had a mouthful of fur plus there is chattering when walking the other one past after you separated then I would be highly concerned for their bond - something has gone wrong between them. You don’t need an actual fight to occur ie you prevented it but it was going to happen to call a bond dysfunctional.

If you are going to try to reintroduce them, you must make sure it is done on neutral territory (don’t just remove the divider and allow them to wander into each others half of the cage) and that this is the final time they are separated and reintroduced. You can’t repeatedly separate and reintroduce boars.
Once you put them together, they either go back together because there is no issue in their bond at all (so what occurred today was not a fight or issue) or it fails in neutral territory and they are never put together again.
Make sure you are prepared to step in (with your hands protected) to separate them

To check -
- what are the measurements of their cage? (Is the cage single level?)
- are there multiple hides?
- do all hides have two exits?

 

[fluffysal]

If it wasn't a proper fight then you might be ok but with a boar pair you always need a separation plan ready. I have separated boys myself.
Going forward it's helpful if you always prioritise the dominant boy in all ways. You need to respect their hierarchy so he doesn't feel so much need to reinforce his dominance.

 

[CTWC]

I was going to add as it was news to me always feed, pick up, say hello, stroke etc the dominant boar first in any interaction

 

[CTWC]

Perhaps as mentioned a quick vet check up as usually by this age they would be ok with each other the behaviour could be due to pain/illness/discomfort of some kind make sure to never do a full cage clean too not sure if that's been mentioned do half and then the other half

 

[Rocket_and_Rex]

If he was hot enough to become frustrated then I would look at your room cooling measures as well.
If there is a problem with their bond, cooling him down won’t make any difference, nor a full moon causing it. (I have two black guinea pigs myself)
The separation is likely what has helped him calm down (but repeated separations should not be done with boars - their bond either works or it doesn’t).
How is rocket behaving - as that is a key factor here. If he is happier now they are apart then the bond is over.

You have to be very careful not to misinterpret behaviours once they are separated - most of them don’t mean they want to be back together, most are territorial and hostile. Things such as laying either side against the dividers - it’s not a friendly gesture, it’s hostility and territory marking. Wheeking far veggie time would also not necessarily be a sign they want each other

You referred to it as a ‘massive fight’.
Chasing is not fighting and there is no need to separate for normal chasing.
If the chasing was so aggressive that it could lead to a fight and in fact one piggy had a mouthful of fur plus there is chattering when walking the other one past after you separated then I would be highly concerned for their bond - something has gone wrong between them. You don’t need an actual fight to occur ie you prevented it but it was going to happen to call a bond dysfunctional.

If you are going to try to reintroduce them, you must make sure it is done on neutral territory (don’t just remove the divider and allow them to wander into each others half of the cage) and that this is the final time they are separated and reintroduced. You can’t repeatedly separate and reintroduce boars.
Once you put them together, they either go back together because there is no issue in their bond at all (so what occurred today was not a fight or issue) or it fails in neutral territory and they are never put together again.
Make sure you are prepared to step in (with your hands protected) to separate them

To check -
- what are the measurements of their cage? (Is the cage single level?)
- are there multiple hides?
- do all hides have two exits?

That's really helpful, and I'm also going to try save up over summer holidays and see about getting rex in for a check up (anyone kno of any cheap, good vets around the dorset area?)
About Rockets behaviour, Rocket doesn't seem happier that they are separate. Whenever he hears Rex shuffling around the separate enclosure he wheeks very loudly, not sure if this is to find him, or a signal or something, but usually whenever he has wheeked in the past he only wheeks when hes happy. Now he's wheeking and is acting more tired and lethargic, along with also drinking alot more water than usual. Rex is acting normal, except for when Rocket wheeks, he looks around like he's trying to find him. Not sure what to do, as they both seem to miss each other, but also seem to not want to be near each other either. I'm going to separate them overnight, in equally large enclosures, and tomorrow evening I'll try use my entire room and separate them with glass dividers, only taking out the dividers during veggie time, and putting them back in after. Does this sound like a good idea, or should I wait longer, or not divide them during feeding time?

 

[Rocket_and_Rex]

Perhaps as mentioned a quick vet check up as usually by this age they would be ok with each other the behaviour could be due to pain/illness/discomfort of some kind make sure to never do a full cage clean too not sure if that's been mentioned do half and then the other half

Thanks for replying!
Whenever I do a full cage clean, I have to do one side first then the other anyway, but this was useful to know. I want to see about getting Rex checked up over summer holidays, but I need recommendations of good but cheap vets in Dorset, preferably under £40, but all the vets I've looked at seem to be over that.

 

[piggieminder]

If Rocket is lethargic and drinking more he needs to see a vet. Recommended Guinea Pig Vets It sounds as if he is unwell, which can cause a relationship breakdown. My boars who had been together or 2.5 years had a rolling ball fight with many bites each when one of them was brewing a UTI. If you are going to divide your boars you need to keep them separate all the time not keep taking them apart and putting them back together again, it's too confusing for them. Every time they are separated they have to go through the whole bonding process again.

 

[piggieminder]

I doubt very much you would find a vet under £40. My vets now charge between £52 and £72 just for the consult fee depending on the seniority of the vet. It's far more important to find a vet who knows about guinea pigs, seeing the cheapest vet is a waste of money if they don't know enough about the species.

 

[Rocket_and_Rex]

If it wasn't a proper fight then you might be ok but with a boar pair you always need a separation plan ready. I have separated boys myself.
Going forward it's helpful if you always prioritise the dominant boy in all ways. You need to respect their hierarchy so he doesn't feel so much need to reinforce his dominance.

I'm not really sure how to explain it. It was like aggressive chasing and it sounded bad and seemed serious, but neither was injured, even though I saw Rex had a clump of fur in his mouth, Rocket did not seem harmed ( I checked him like six times everywhere) , just very shaken up and skittish. Rex has been acting more dominant these past few days, but weighing Rocket today (literally minutes ago) Rocket now seems heavier than Rex, which makes me think that Rocket has been trying to overtake Rex because of the weight difference, and thats what has been causing these past few arguments. (I am in no way a guinea pig behaviour expert, so I could be entirely wrong, it's just a theory.) Should I also be concerned about Rockets sudden weight gain, or is that just him being greedy? (he has done this in the past like one or two times, he eats a bit more, runs around a lot the next day, and goes back to normal weight, so I'm not sure if I should be concerned or not.

 

[Rocket_and_Rex]

If Rocket is lethargic and drinking more he needs to see a vet. Recommended Guinea Pig Vets It sounds as if he is unwell, which can cause a relationship breakdown. My boars who had been together or 2.5 years had a rolling ball fight with many bites each when one of them was brewing a UTI. If you are going to divide your boars you need to keep them separate all the time not keep taking them apart and putting them back together again, it's too confusing for them. Every time they are separated they have to go through the whole bonding process again.

That sounds honestly similar to my situation ( I was very close to the piggie cage when I heard the fight so I managed to stop if early enough), they are around 2.5 years old, lived together with no problems (minor issues during puberty years, but that's normal). If it is UTI, I will need to convince my parents to take them to the vets, however they are trying to make me use home remedies or order medicine online. Is there anything I can do at home to ease the pain until I can convince them to be taken to the vet?

 

[piggieminder]

We do not recommend home treatment for any condition you need to see a vet and get a proper diagnosis and treatment.

 

[piggie NANA]

i feel your pain, our boys are two years old now. also bought from a pet store and possibly brothers, we think cause they were in the same fish tank. the black and white one we thought at the time was the dominate one, turns out it's the brown and white one that is the trouble maker, lol .. so they have lived their lives separated since then, we do keep them in the room that we are in the most, so that we interact with them constantly. we also give them floor time and watch tv with them. we thought about getting them paired or getting younger male.. but we don't want to stress them and if they don't get along we don't have room for more than our two right now.

 

[piggie NANA]

o we did separate them because they were drawing blood.. not just cause they were being boys. we worried about their safety

 

[Rocket_and_Rex]

i feel your pain, our boys are two years old now. also bought from a pet store and possibly brothers, we think cause they were in the same fish tank. the black and white one we thought at the time was the dominate one, turns out it's the brown and white one that is the trouble maker, lol .. so they have lived their lives separated since then, we do keep them in the room that we are in the most, so that we interact with them constantly. we also give them floor time and watch tv with them. we thought about getting them paired or getting younger male.. but we don't want to stress them and if they don't get along we don't have room for more than our two right now.

I have a small room, and live in a house with six other people, I really want them to be able to rebond, as they have been able to in the past. Permanent separation is not really an option, and if they can't rebond then I'm not sure what to do. They have a large enough piggie cage that I might be able to separate using glass panels, I'm just freaking out a bit right now, because of everything. I want to get them both checked up, treatment if thats what they need, it's just my parents. They know the bare minimum and I'm really not sure what to do if they say no to anything.

 

[Rocket_and_Rex]

Does anyone have any advice on convincing parents? Or does anyone have any good vet recommendations (dorset area) that can do a zoom call thing with the parents there and give expert advice, maybe that would convince them.

 

[Rocket_and_Rex]

If it wasn't a proper fight then you might be ok but with a boar pair you always need a separation plan ready. I have separated boys myself.
Going forward it's helpful if you always prioritise the dominant boy in all ways. You need to respect their hierarchy so he doesn't feel so much need to reinforce his dominance.

Oh okay! I was going to give him the slightly smaller cage for tonight, but I'll give him the bigger one knowing this. Thankyou!

 

[Piggies&buns]

When you do a temporary separation, you cannot put them together for veg time and then put the dividers back up. If you do this you will cause problems as it is not how piggy relationships function. As I said, repeated separations and reintroductions cannot be done with boars. It’s a one time thing - their bond either works or it doesn’t.

You need to fully separate them for a few days to calm down ie absolutely no time physical together at all, no veg together.
You then need to do a proper neutral territory reintroduction in a few days time to see if they still have a functioning bond. If they do then they stay together and aren’t separated again for dominance (only separate if there is a fight and then it is permanent). If they don’t want to be back together then issues will occur quite quickly and then the separation needs to be permanent.
You cannot reintroduce them in a space which either of them see as their territory - so you cannot do the reintroduction in the cage. You also cannot just remove dividers and allow them to wander into each others half.
If you then divide your whole room and allow them to have half each, you then won’t be able to do the reintroduction in your room at all (because each half will then be seen as their own separate territories). You would then have to do the reintroduction in a different part of the house - on a bathroom or kitchen floor for example.

You need to be clear on the behaviour you were seeing.
Whether you misinterpreted what you saw and should never have separated or whether it was a fight/aggressive enough that it would have lead to a fight . (You’ve said it was a massive fight but also that they did not fight).
You’ve also said they don’t appear to be able to share a cage. This is obviously a bad sign for their ability to ever go back together.

A fight and not being able to share a cage means their bond is over and they won’t be able to go back together.
Looking for/calling each other doesn’t mean they can live together - they can be ‘can’t live together, can’t life apart’. In this case, they are happy to communicate and interact but must have bars between them at all times.
I have separated boars - they are always squeaking and chatting between the bars but they literally hate each other and can never be in the same space.
There is also a lot of territorial behaviours and power lie ins.

If a pig is unwell and the other takes advantage of that then to change the hierarchy, first, vet checks/treatment needs to happen.
Secondly, if the bond has any chance to function again, the original dominant would have to step aside and allow the other to be doninant. They aren’t usually prepared to step aside so their bond would be over as there is then a power struggle and neither agrees upon the resolution.

Their cage if living together needs to be 180x60cm.
How big is their cage?
Do all hides have two exits?

During an emergency separation such as this they can get away with a bit smaller space but if their separation needs to be permanent, each piggy needs their own cage measuring a minimum of 120x60cm each to meet welfare minimum.

Please read these guides as it explains a dysfunctional bond, how to see if they still want to be together and how to carry out the reintroduction.

Bonds In Trouble
Bonding and Interaction: Illustrated social behaviours and bonding dynamics

When doing the cage clean it means to clean one side one day and then do the other side a day or so later.

You need to carry out weight checks in the morning, not at the end of a day as that isn’t accurate (you are simply weighing a full stomach).
You then compare the weight check to the one on the previous day or previous week.

Weight guide below:

Weight - Monitoring and Management

As an adult, do you not have the ability to take them to the vet yourself?
A zoom call won’t help as they will need a hands on check.

You cannot home treat anything - you don’t know what or even if anything is wrong so you don’t know what they need. A lot of meds are prescription only in any event so you won’t be able to buy even painkillers.

 

[weepweeps]

Hello and welcome to the forum. I’m so sorry your boys have fallen out. I’d weigh them daily for a week to see if they are losing weight. That’s the best sign that something is wrong with them. A vet appointment would be needed. It’s never a good idea to try and self medicate. You could make things worse and end up spending more money in the long run. Good luck.