Losing weight & syringe feeding

[BellaGP]

We've been on holiday and our neighbour told us that one of our two guinea pigs didn't seem as lively when he fed them. Sure enough Patch had lost weight and there was diarrhoea in the hutch on our second day back and Patch had a dirty bottom.

That 10 days ago. Her weight is normally 1.2kg but she had dropped to 970g

The vet couldn't find anything. The diarrhoea stopped after 2/3 days. The vet had given us fibreplex to help with that. We've also tried a metoclopramide injection in case of stasis. She seemed more lively after that and started eating grass and kale, albeit not as quick or for as long as her sister but at least she's trying. So we're giving her 1ml orally twice a day for the last 3 days.

We started hand feeding her on day 2 after our holiday. It was tricky at the start probably due to us figuring it out so her wight dipped to 960g. She can now take 25-30ml of recovery plus a day and her weight crept up a bit gaining 8-10g a day for the last three days up to 980g with normal droppings.

Yesterday we didn't give her as much hand feed because she was doing really well with kale, celery and grass in the run. Although we've only seen her nibble a few bits of hay whereas guiena pigs usually motor through that. Anyway, given that she seemed to be eating well we eased off the hand feeding, we didn't want to fill her stomach which would stop her eating normally.

This morning we've realised our weaning experiment has failed. There's diarrhoea in the hutch overnight and she's dropped 40g down to 940g in 2 days - most of that could be the bowel emptying rather than loss of body mass. So today we're back to the foie gras regime. We hope that will stabilise her weight again and normal stools will return.

She's been very thoroughly examined by two vets 3 times in the last week and they can't find anything wrong.

So questions:

1. She hadn't had kale for a few days so maybe giving that yesterday promoted renewed diarrhoea? We'll not give her any more for a few days.
2. We're concerned that she'll get dependent on syringe feeding. How long does it take to wean her off hand feeding? She'll not regain an appetite if we're doing the foie gras regime but if we don't syringe feed she loses weight. It's a catch 22.
3. The two vets are cautious that she'll recover, they're saying that it's not uncommon for guinea pigs to stop eating and not restart. In which case are we prolonging the inevitable with the hand feeding?

On the plus side, Patch is much more alert and animated once we got hand feeding established so we think she's not in pain. It's painful for us to see her so scrawny and bony, for example she now has distinct head and neck rather than the usual neck roll. It's very sad.

 

[Piggies&buns]

When a piggy is not eating hay, you must syringe feed to replace that hay intake with recovery feed, and you must not stop just because you see them eating veg. Eating veg does not count as it’s not the fibre their guts need and is nowhere near enough of their daily food intake to keep weight stable. Hay is 80% of their daily food intake, veg just 15% so eating veg but not eating hay still means a piggy has lost 80% of their daily food intake. It’s the hay intake the syringe feeding is replacing.

You can only stop syringe feeding when a piggy is eating enough hay independently to maintain their weight.
She will not become reliant on syringe feeding and equally syringe feeding will not prevent her from eating hay independently if she is able to. A piggy who is well enough to eat hay will do so.
When they are getting over their illness, you can ease off (not stop) syringe feeding but keep up with daily weight checks so you can monitor their independent hay intake by the scales. If the weight drops, you need to increase the syringe feeding. If the weight remains stable, then they are likely starting to eat enough hay independently and you can ease off the syringe feeding further until it’s not needed.

25-30ml per day is not enough for a piggy who is not eating enough hay. If they are not maintaining their weight, then you need to be syringe feeding at least 40-60ml per day.
Daily weight checks are your guide to know how much syringe feed to give each day.

All About Syringe Feeding and Medicating Guinea Pigs with Videos and Pictures

Are the poops formed but soft or is it proper diarrhoea?

Please do cut all fresh veg and grass out of the diet until poops normalise. Offer unlimited hay, the normal one tablespoon of pellets per day and as much recovery feed as is needed to keep her weight stable.
When her poops are no longer soft, you can slowly start to reintroduce veg back into the diet. Do so slowly. Starting with herbs is often best as they tend to be kinder to the digestive system.

Digestive Disorders: Not Eating - Diarrhea - Bloat - GI Stasis (No Gut Movement)

As a side, kale should not be in the diet regularly. It’s too high in calcium and should only be given in a tiny amount and no more than once a week

With regard to point 3, it depends what is actually going on with her so with no clear diagnosis its obviously impossible to know.
I personally don’t see syringe feeding as delaying the inevitable particularly while they still have a zest for life, it’s giving them a chance - a piggy who isn’t eating enough independently and not being syringe fed will not survive even if the illness can be overcome. Syringe feeding is just as important as medications in overcoming an illness.
There are signs when they have had enough but while they still have a zest for life and taking syringe feed (and are able to swallow) and still eating at least something independently, then that is not a sign of a piggy who is giving up.

I know you say thoroughly examined, but can you clarify what checks they did?
Teeth checked, urine test etc?
Were any medications (aside from the gut stimulant) prescribed?

Has it been hot where you are? You say hutch, so presumably outside, is heat related issues a possibility (sun heat breezes in hutches can be dangerous).
Could somebody have fed her something out of the ordinary etc?

 

[BellaGP]

Thanks @Piggies&buns

In hindsight it's obvious, silly me. Eating lots of veg but no hay means she needs to be balanced with fibre from in the recovery plus. She's been darting around and very active today so she's clearly feeling well despite our mishap yesterday.

Her droppings had got back to normal shape/size for a few day albeit slightly wetter and not as compacted as the other guinea pig.

We're trying to increase the feed but she's determined when she's had enough. She does seem to put on weight once she gets above 25ml intake and the amount she'll take is slowly increasing. We hit 37ml on Tues, looking like we'll get similar today. It's a long slow recovery!

They're in a hutch with a pipe to a run so they are free to roam as they choose. I tend to move the run once a week to fresh grass which they love but I'll take your advice and not do that so they don't get a glut of fresh grass. The stuff they are on now is only a few mm above the ground so they'll not be able to eat much of it. I do end up putting a lot of hay in the run so they don't binge on the grass and it also forms a carpet to protect the grass which means it regrows much quicker after I move the run. They also have hay in the hutch.

 

[Piggies&buns]

As long as she gets enough to keep her weight stable until she is feeling better then that’s great. Those daily weight checks are your best friend at the moment!

Definitely keep fresh food out until her poops aren’t as wet.

I hope she feels better soon

 

[BellaGP]

Patch is happily glugging from the big syringe and then giving it a push away when she's had enough. We've had 6 days over 40ml and over 50ml for the last 2 days. Looks like we'll hit 60ml today.

Well formed stools for 6 days. She munches on hay between feeds albeit rather selectively, she'll nose around for a preferred piece which means she's not motoring through it like normal. She's deperate for grass and spends ages putting her nose through the bars of the run to try to get the tiniest nibble of grass that is just out of reach. I put her down on the lawn for a moment this afternoon and she started on the fresh grass with ferocious intensity so she's hungry.

But ... she's not putting on weight despite the increasing feed . She's holding exactly the same weight since my first post a week ago even though we're feeding double what she was managing at that point.

• Do we keep trying to increase the feed volume so she gains weight or just be glad we can keep weight stable while we wait for her to take on more hay?
• She's been on metoclopramide for 10 days now, is it worth asking for ranitidine as well? Or just be patient?

The vet's surprised we're buying so much Recovery plus as most people don't need to keep it going for so long.

 

[Piggies&buns]

Syringe feeding it is to stop them losing weight while unwell and keep the guts functioning while they recover and get their appetite back. Regaining lost weight takes significantly longer after they have recovered and are consistently eating hay again properly.
You can give her as much syringe feed as she will take. 40-60ml is the approximate amount to keep them stable during illness. To gain weight with syringe feeding you would be looking at feeding more like 100-120ml per day but you really want her to be eating lots of hay as well.
Its quite normal for them to be foraging through it and picking out the best bits - so I’m assuming she is foraging through and rejecting more than is normal for her?

When was she last seen by the vet? I assume the vet still hasn’t found anything more specific
Is she back on a normal diet and not having soft poops any more? - ie getting veg as well?

 

[piggles 7000]

Patch is happily glugging from the big syringe and then giving it a push away when she's had enough. We've had 6 days over 40ml and over 50ml for the last 2 days. Looks like we'll hit 60ml today.

Well formed stools for 6 days. She munches on hay between feeds albeit rather selectively, she'll nose around for a preferred piece which means she's not motoring through it like normal. She's deperate for grass and spends ages putting her nose through the bars of the run to try to get the tiniest nibble of grass that is just out of reach. I put her down on the lawn for a moment this afternoon and she started on the fresh grass with ferocious intensity so she's hungry.

But ... she's not putting on weight despite the increasing feed . She's holding exactly the same weight since my first post a week ago even though we're feeding double what she was managing at that point.

• Do we keep trying to increase the feed volume so she gains weight or just be glad we can keep weight stable while we wait for her to take on more hay?
• She's been on metoclopramide for 10 days now, is it worth asking for ranitidine as well? Or just be patient?

The vet's surprised we're buying so much Recovery plus as most people don't need to keep it going for so long.

I would be giving her more syringe feed to get her weight up to more normal for her. I usually aim to give my piggies at least 100 mls syringe food a day when they aren't well and not eating well for themselves. Personally I would allow some grass as her tummy is used to it and it's not exactly "rich" and juicy at the moment- if it's anything like mine at least! Monitor that but I would let her have some for the sake of her teeth as well as shes not eating much hay. It's not as effective as hay for keeping teeth healthy but it goes some way to helping.
This is what I would do but others may have other ideas

 

[BellaGP]

oh dear.

We've had a few days of seeing Patch eat more hay and maintaining weight while we reduce feeds.

The last night she seemed a bit subdued. Then this morning there were several piles of diarrhoea in the hutch and the guilty brown rump on Patch. She's lost 20g on her normal morning weigh in. She also had a poo when I was feeding her, promptly bent down to clean herself then looked up at me with a brown nose. ugh

No change to diet, no watery veg, but we did move the run to fresh grass on Monday morning. That was over 2 days ago but maybe she's binged on that.

 

[Piggies&buns]

20g isn’t considered a weight loss. Weight loss is only from 50g onwards, so I wouldn’t be too concerned provided it is a one off.
However the diarrhoea is of concern. If it is proper liquid diarrhoea and completely unformed, then please see a vet today as diarrhoea is considered an emergency.

It is possible grass her upset her digestion

 

[BellaGP]

The diarrhoea is more like the consitency of chocolate spread or smooth peanut butter. The stuff in the hutch has been sat on so v messy but what I saw when I was feeding her seemed more like a 3cm long worm. So not a disaster but not properly formed pellets either.

About the weight, shes in a range of 925 to 945g range then this morning she's 905. Two weeks ago it was 960-985 so we're cautious about slowly creeping down

I should also say that we've been putting her on the lawn for 10-15 min of fresh grass for a few days before we moved the run. She really enjoyed that and didn't seem to mess with her bowels. Generally they are a tough pair and never had any issues about new food or moving to new grass.

 

[Posyrose]

Chocolate spread-like poo needs to have a vet visit I'm afraid.

Without veg and grass poo should normalise in a few days, going backwards to Chocolate spread is a sign that what you're doing isn't helping,even though you're doing such a great job on the syringe feeds.