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Long story but help needed!

MunchMummy

Junior Guinea Pig
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Hi all,

Bear with me...long story but really need some advice.

I had 2 beautiful boys from RSPCA. Both older boars...we think around 5 or 6. Sadly one passed very suddenly leaving his neutered buddy Albie alone for the first time in his life.

We managed to track down a 2 year old girl at a local rescue who had just lost her boar. They had attempted to integrate her into their herd but she didn't take to it well and hid away. They felt she woyld be happier with a calm boar.

After a little while of settling Daisy in, we attempted a bond with Albie. It went so well. They seemed to adore eachother and Daisy was eating well, coming to us at the opening of a veg bag, taking food from us and was doing so well. About 3 or 4 days into the bonding, Daisybwas suddenly super doddery on her legs and seemed off-balance. We were luckily able to get her seen by a vet within the hour.

2 vets saw her (including an exotics vet who works for our local zoo) and they both agreed it seemed like a minor injury, certainly no breaks and prescribed Metacam for 3 days (0.2ml once a day). Albie went to the vet too and was given a clean bill of health.

By the next day however, Daisy was laying on one side and stopped eating. Back to the vet...and we had baytril (also 0.2 twice a day) and we started to syringe feed her. We were also told we could give a probiotic to keep her moving (we have fibreplex always handy as we had a pig with a bloat issue).

Today she seems more feisty but still mostly on her side. She takes the syringe feed well but seems to have pain in her front left leg and is more comfy on her side.

Not happy, she went back to the vet today. She was seen by the same 2 vets and they even called another guinea expert for advice. I was convinced we would lose her after only just over a week of having her.

She has however been diagnosed with probable vestibular syndrome (rather like vertigo I understand?) which can cause swelling and pain in a limb. They think the likely cause is that when she was in the herd, she may not have got as much in the way of veggies as she could have and that she lacks vitamin C...although trauma or infection can also be the cause. This is so frustrating as my pigs always have Oxbow vitamin C biscuits and we obviously in the short time of having Daisy, haven't had chance to get enough of those in her!

She is now on baytril as long as needed, and the dose of metacam has been upped to 0.4 ml a day. And they suggested grinding up the vitamin c tablet into her syringe feed. It could take some time but there is chance of a full recovery. They also gave her emeprid to keep her gut moving properly.

All this leads me to 2 question:

1) Has anyone else had experience of vestibular syndrome?

2) What do we do about Albie? We tried to keep Albie with Daisy but she hasn't moved far from the far corner and he was hassling her, clearly wanting to play and it was clearly distressing her. They have been in an 8x2 c&c but we decided to put a clear divider down the middle. However, Albie can't see her as she has decided the far end (near the radiator!) is where she wants to be! Albie seems fine but we don't know how long it will take Daisy to recover, if she recovers, and we are worried about him getting lonely. Any suggestions? Do we make arrangements for a new friend for him as he was only with Daisy a few days? And if Daisy recovers find a new friend for her? Or do we stay as we are and hope we can rebond them in time?

Many thanks for your patience in reading all this!
 
I should add she did surprise us by eating hay in the pet carrier the whole way to the vet and back...albeit still on her side!
 
I’m sorry Daisy is poorly. I don’t have any experience of this but I put it in the search and a few threads popped up. Give them a read and hopefully someone with first hand experience will be along soon.
 
Hi all,

Bear with me...long story but really need some advice.

I had 2 beautiful boys from RSPCA. Both older boars...we think around 5 or 6. Sadly one passed very suddenly leaving his neutered buddy Albie alone for the first time in his life.

We managed to track down a 2 year old girl at a local rescue who had just lost her boar. They had attempted to integrate her into their herd but she didn't take to it well and hid away. They felt she woyld be happier with a calm boar.

After a little while of settling Daisy in, we attempted a bond with Albie. It went so well. They seemed to adore eachother and Daisy was eating well, coming to us at the opening of a veg bag, taking food from us and was doing so well. About 3 or 4 days into the bonding, Daisybwas suddenly super doddery on her legs and seemed off-balance. We were luckily able to get her seen by a vet within the hour.

2 vets saw her (including an exotics vet who works for our local zoo) and they both agreed it seemed like a minor injury, certainly no breaks and prescribed Metacam for 3 days (0.2ml once a day). Albie went to the vet too and was given a clean bill of health.

By the next day however, Daisy was laying on one side and stopped eating. Back to the vet...and we had baytril (also 0.2 twice a day) and we started to syringe feed her. We were also told we could give a probiotic to keep her moving (we have fibreplex always handy as we had a pig with a bloat issue).

Today she seems more feisty but still mostly on her side. She takes the syringe feed well but seems to have pain in her front left leg and is more comfy on her side.

Not happy, she went back to the vet today. She was seen by the same 2 vets and they even called another guinea expert for advice. I was convinced we would lose her after only just over a week of having her.

She has however been diagnosed with probable vestibular syndrome (rather like vertigo I understand?) which can cause swelling and pain in a limb. They think the likely cause is that when she was in the herd, she may not have got as much in the way of veggies as she could have and that she lacks vitamin C...although trauma or infection can also be the cause. This is so frustrating as my pigs always have Oxbow vitamin C biscuits and we obviously in the short time of having Daisy, haven't had chance to get enough of those in her!

She is now on baytril as long as needed, and the dose of metacam has been upped to 0.4 ml a day. And they suggested grinding up the vitamin c tablet into her syringe feed. It could take some time but there is chance of a full recovery. They also gave her emeprid to keep her gut moving properly.

All this leads me to 2 question:

1) Has anyone else had experience of vestibular syndrome?

2) What do we do about Albie? We tried to keep Albie with Daisy but she hasn't moved far from the far corner and he was hassling her, clearly wanting to play and it was clearly distressing her. They have been in an 8x2 c&c but we decided to put a clear divider down the middle. However, Albie can't see her as she has decided the far end (near the radiator!) is where she wants to be! Albie seems fine but we don't know how long it will take Daisy to recover, if she recovers, and we are worried about him getting lonely. Any suggestions? Do we make arrangements for a new friend for him as he was only with Daisy a few days? And if Daisy recovers find a new friend for her? Or do we stay as we are and hope we can rebond them in time?

Many thanks for your patience in reading all this!
Hi


I am very sorry for Daisy - and how upsetting for you.

I haven't any experience with it as it is one of those 'out there' rare issues where any diagnosis, treatment and care is basically down to how a vet can translate their experience with other species - whatever they have - into treatment for guinea pigs.

But the practical advice in these guides may help you with the home care, especially with any longer term care:
- Looking After Guinea Pigs With Limited or No Mobility
- CBS (Calcified Bulla Syndrome) and Neurological Problems - Symptoms and Care (Doesn't deal with your own diagnosis but you may find some of the information useful since there is not much out there when it comes to research into guinea pigs - and that is a British understatement)

@PigglePuggle @Piggies&buns
 
Aw little piggy bless her! It's good if she's still eating hay though.
Is there a way they can live side by side for a while?
 
Aw little piggy bless her! It's good if she's still eating hay though.
Is there a way they can live side by side for a while?
I know! Poor little mite. We are doing all we can for her though so fingers crossed.

They are side by side at the moment...just 2 c&c grid separating but at the moment she is enjoying being at the far end so I'm not sure Albie even knows she's there! ☹️
 
Hi


I am very sorry for Daisy - and how upsetting for you.

I haven't any experience with it as it is one of those 'out there' rare issues where any diagnosis, treatment and care is basically down to how a vet can translate their experience with other species - whatever they have - into treatment for guinea pigs.

But the practical advice in these guides may help you with the home care, especially with any longer term care:
- Looking After Guinea Pigs With Limited or No Mobility
- CBS (Calcified Bulla Syndrome) and Neurological Problems - Symptoms and Care (Doesn't deal with your own diagnosis but you may find some of the information useful since there is not much out there when it comes to research into guinea pigs - and that is a British understatement)

@PigglePuggle @Piggies&buns


This is brilliant. Thank you 🙂
 
This is unknown territory for me but while I can understand the temptation to plan for any eventuality I think the best thing to do is keep doing what you're doing and don't introduce any more piggies yet. Companions through the bars will be fine - any new pig could upset her even if they're kept separate and that could tip the balance the wrong way. I hope she can recover from this problem and be re-bonded... she knows him now and he knows her and they got on well before her illness. But if she can't get over this you will be making her as comfortable and content as she needs to be right now with her supplemented support feeding and encouragement. Well done you x
 
Tha
This is unknown territory for me but while I can understand the temptation to plan for any eventuality I think the best thing to do is keep doing what you're doing and don't introduce any more piggies yet. Companions through the bars will be fine - any new pig could upset her even if they're kept separate and that could tip the balance the wrong way. I hope she can recover from this problem and be re-bonded... she knows him now and he knows her and they got on well before her illness. But if she can't get over this you will be making her as comfortable and content as she needs to be right now with her supplemented support feeding and encouragement. Well done you x
Thank you so much. This is pretty much what we thought but I just wanted to be sure. It's so hard to know sometimes and it's just great to have this resource with all you knowledgeable guys to support.
 
DAISY UPDATE:

Whilst still mostly laying on her side, Daisy has been feeding on the syringe beautifully and taking more each time. We managed to get 60ml into her yesterday and last night she did have a wee bit of cucumber! Another 30ml this morning and she is trying to stand up and get to food but she's still too dizzy poor thing. However, after her syringe feed this morning, she astounded us by munching pretty much an entire leaf of romaine! She was trying so hard to get to it so we held it for her and she ate pretty much all of it! This is a huge improvement. She also seems to be more comfortable and we noticed last night that she briefly wiped her nose with the troublesome front paw!

I know she isn't out of the woods yet but this has given us some hope for sure!

Albie seems fine and is eating well and getting extra attention from us too. He likes to have a look through the divider to check Daisy is still about.
 
Oh that's good to hear. I know everything is still up in the air but at least she is keen to eat - it makes syringing so much easier. I bet Albie is wondering what's going on but her presence will reassure him just like his will reassure her ❤️
How long has she been on the Baytril? And did they suggest any second-line antibiotic if the Baytril wasn't making any difference? I ask because our pigs have had UTIs in the past which haven't responded to Baytril but have responded to a different AB.
 
She actually made her way clumsily towards the barrier tonight because she realised Albie had vegetables! So we gave her some pepper and she ate that. She was even on her feet properly for a while for the first time since this started! It was brief but a sign she is improving.

She has been on the Baytril since Thursday. Initially she was put on a 7 day course but the vet suggested we may need to keep them going for longer. Hubby did some research and also mentioned another antibiotic I think so definitely interested in learning more...
 
In our experience antibiotics that are going to work do so quickly - but our experience has mainly been with UTI and an occasional URI and these can be pretty straightforward. So for instance, when Baytril didn't clear a piggy's symptoms (like blood in urine and pain when peeing) they were switched to Septrin. I normally say to people that you'll see a difference in the first few days after starting the course and certainly by day 3. Now it took about 5 days on ABs to stop seeing blood tint in George's pee but it was literally 24 hours after the course started that he had stopped crying when he peed and was out and about looking for food - so we could tell there had been bacterial infection causing the problem and we'd found the right AB to kill it off (Full disclosure: despite more comfortable peeing it did completely kill his appetite and it was a real battle for a few weeks to kill off the last of those bugs, but it did kill them in the end). Most infections a vet sees will be reasonably straightforward like that - if the first choice AB doesn't work try a second, and if that doesn't work maybe it's not a bacterial infection after all.

But there are more complicated situations where an antibiotic will struggle even if the target bug is sensitive - making spotting antibiotic resistance that bit more complicated. For example, the bacteria which cause problems in piggies with Calcified Bulla Syndrome (CBS) have 'walled themselves' in the middle ear making it hard for antibiotics to get through. The link in @Wiebke 's post above shows x-rays of piggies clearly showing this calcification. That doesn't mean the bacteria are resistant to the medicine - it just means it's hard to get at them. There's no leg swelling symptoms in CBS though.

If she's improving slowly it might be that the antibiotic is working on some bug somewhere - or it might be that there's no infection and she's improving because of time, care and diet. It's kind of impossible to say. The vet will ask you abut any improvement you've seen so be careful to tell them about the time frame as well as her achievement it will help them decide which is the best next step.

You're doing great Daisy 💕
 
In our experience antibiotics that are going to work do so quickly - but our experience has mainly been with UTI and an occasional URI and these can be pretty straightforward. So for instance, when Baytril didn't clear a piggy's symptoms (like blood in urine and pain when peeing) they were switched to Septrin. I normally say to people that you'll see a difference in the first few days after starting the course and certainly by day 3. Now it took about 5 days on ABs to stop seeing blood tint in George's pee but it was literally 24 hours after the course started that he had stopped crying when he peed and was out and about looking for food - so we could tell there had been bacterial infection causing the problem and we'd found the right AB to kill it off (Full disclosure: despite more comfortable peeing it did completely kill his appetite and it was a real battle for a few weeks to kill off the last of those bugs, but it did kill them in the end). Most infections a vet sees will be reasonably straightforward like that - if the first choice AB doesn't work try a second, and if that doesn't work maybe it's not a bacterial infection after all.

But there are more complicated situations where an antibiotic will struggle even if the target bug is sensitive - making spotting antibiotic resistance that bit more complicated. For example, the bacteria which cause problems in piggies with Calcified Bulla Syndrome (CBS) have 'walled themselves' in the middle ear making it hard for antibiotics to get through. The link in @Wiebke 's post above shows x-rays of piggies clearly showing this calcification. That doesn't mean the bacteria are resistant to the medicine - it just means it's hard to get at them. There's no leg swelling symptoms in CBS though.

If she's improving slowly it might be that the antibiotic is working on some bug somewhere - or it might be that there's no infection and she's improving because of time, care and diet. It's kind of impossible to say. The vet will ask you abut any improvement you've seen so be careful to tell them about the time frame as well as her achievement it will help them decide which is the best next step.

You're doing great Daisy 💕
Ah thank you so much. That's really interesting. The vets have been wonderful and have asked for regular updates. They seem really invested. I've been nothing but impressed with them so will definitely talk this all through with them.

The syringe feeds are more supplementary now as she is inhaling vegetables and happily eating hay but this is mostly whilst being held. If it weren't for the disorientation and dizziness causing her to struggle to right herself you wouldn't know anything was wrong with her. However, she is managing to stay upright more when she's put that way...slow steps but definite improvement. She's also having normal poops which is great!

I've attached a pic, post syringe feed (hence the slightly messy nose!) of her enjoying her cucumber. Her left eye kind of rolls around a bit when she's disoriented which was the main symptoms that helped the diagnosis. We've only had her such a short time but we've totally fallen in love with her and fighting hard for her.
 

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Aah poor lovely girl, she's still enjoying her cucumber.
Is she more comfortable when propped into something she can feel against her sides (like a donut bed or box with a fleece in) than on a flat surface?
 
Up until today yes...we've been propping her in her cuddle cup and my husband discovered that she was really calmed by having a little blanket laid over her too bless her! But she's more intrepid today! She's not really moving much under her own steam but she's managed to keep herself upright all day...albeit lower to the ground than usual! This is a huge breakthrough after continually just falling on her side for a few days. Now we pop her in her cuddle cup and she shuffles herself out of it to get to the hay...and keeps herself upright while doing it! AND she is using her front paw and putting weight on it now.

We just need to get her walking and standing properly again but she's made huge steps today in keeping herself upright for the whole day! And she's eaten plenty and taken supplementary feeds. So keeping everything crossed she continues to improve.
 
How brave! 💕
I had a random few days of vertigo last December. No other symptoms. Fell out of bed one morning, toppled over and felt like I was falling down a black hole. Movement triggered it but stopping moving didn't make it stop straight away. Doc said it wasn't uncommon in 'older' people - thanks! It is a hard thing to cope with. It mostly cleared but about 10% lasted for weeks. She's a determined little lady x
 
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