(Long Post) Is this normal? What can I do?

[daisiespalace]

Hello everyone!

I'll try to explain everything as good as possible so this post may be long, but here are some information beforehand that I think could be useful for what my problem is:

I have three guinea pigs in total as of right now, 1 male and 2 female. Kiri is the male and about 5-6 years old (I don't know exactly how old he is, all I know that he was about 2 years old when I got him and Asu was 10 weeks old back then) Milky was added to the two, and she is now three years old, and Minka is two years old.

I keep them in a 7x3 c&c cage at the moment with fleece liners. They get fresh veggies everyday (salads, cucumber, tomatoes, bell peppers, carrots, fennel... and much more, they get a great variety of veggies, whatever I can get for them which is also safe for them to consume) and of course, unlimited hay and water. They also get some type of fresh herb with every veggie meal. I also like to throw in some dried herbs throughout the day. They also get some pellets (versele laga cavia complete), mostly in Winter though, when it gets hard to buy the right veggies for them in my area.
The cage gets cleaned weekly with some small cleanings through the week, before I exchange everything.

So now for my problem:
When my group was still consisting of four guinea pigs, everything was literally perfect. Everyone got along perfect with each other without really fighting, except for food of course Which piggie doesn't want the best piece of food?
Besides that, I really can't say anything much else about that time. There were no problems, like ever. The only time it was hard was when Milky was added to the group - but that only lasted for some hours and after two days everything worked out fine. The addition of Minka to the group was flawless, no problems at all. Not even fighting.
The only thing which might be worth mentioning is that Minka and Asu were always the ones who loved to play with each other as they were both quite playful by nature, and always very curious piggies. Milky, on the other hand is more of a reserved personality, but still very dominant. Kiri is just... relaxed, he doesn't care about anything.

But that "perfect group" did change when Asu passed away last year in November after she had some very heavy problems with her ovaries which sadly ended up in euthanization after the vet told me that treatment wouldn't be really an option especially because it worsened suddenly and she was in a lot of pain and her body started to give up. In the time when Asu's condition was worsening, it already started to strain the relationship between everyone. I seperated Asu from the group when I saw that she was in a lot of pain and I wasn't really sure what exactly the issue was, especially because it was so suddenly. After I came home from the vet and came to the conclusion that euthanizing her probably would be the most human way to let her go and end her suffering - I put her back to the others so she can spend her last day with the other piggies but that ended up in Asu and Minka fighting (even though they were always best friends ), like actual fighting. Teeth chattering, they jumped at each other... it was just a huge mess, I seperated them immediately and put Asu in a seperate cage again. After a while I decided to put Kiri in there too, just so she wouldn't be alone on her last day and that worked out fine, he was friendly and it was just perfect, I don't regret it a second. Putting him back to the others the next day when it was time for Asu to go, also wasn't a problem at all.
I put Asu's body back in the cage when I got back, just so that the others can sniff her one last time, to understand that she is gone. Kiri was the only one who reacted quite badly, he screamed loud when he sniffed her and realised she was dead and hid immediately for some time before he came out to sniff her again and tried to move her body around. He also was more inactive the days after and didn't eat as much (it is better now! he's doing just perfect which I am so thankful for because this scared me) Milky just sniffed her a bit and licked a little bit around her lower body. Minka didn't care at all actually and ignored it completely.

Now to my problem: Minka and Milky actually never had problems until weeks after Asu passed. I understand that a herd sometimes need time after a friend passed, and everything was going somewhat well except that their relationship was a bit strained, which I understood. The only thing which I'm worried about now is Minka (for the most part). She lost her only piggie friend who always was running around and playing with her, which definitely shows as she seems lost in the group, as Milky has always been more quiet and doesn't seem interested in playing around a lot, she likes running around but not really with others, does that make sense? And Kiri is just very chill and somewhat similar to Milky, except that Minka gets along with Kiri just fine. The only thing is that Minka always starts to get very noisy whenever Milky is coming close to her, especially when Minka is just chilling in the cage or eats hay and Milky just wants to eat some hay too. The noises Minka makes when Milky comes close to her is the same as what you'd normally hear when piggies are rumblestrutting, and the submissive one does like the complaining noise? (

at 0:30, it's the same noise Minka makes) but I have to say this doesn't happen all the time either?! But what I've noticed that it worsens a lot after 5-7pm. Like right now it's 2pm for me as I'm writing this and Minka is close to Milky and no complaining, whatsoever. Milky doesn't even try to dominate her most of the time, she only did it the first weeks after Asu's passing but not anymore, or at least not as much. It's only Minka that seems to have an issue? They don't even fight, there's also no teeth chattering involved most of the time, teeth chattering is only present when there's something with food going on, like when I'm still preparing it and stuff but also not always. Minka sometimes lifts up her head against Milky and lets out a loud snort while doing so, while also doing these complaining noises as I've told earlier.

Personally I feel like Minka is (still) feeling a little bit lost in the group right now after everything, especially because she's the only one talking almost everytime within the cage when she walks around and explores everything. It feels like Milky and Kiri are completely aware of their roles within the group except for Minka. But maybe you can help me out? Is there anything I can do to make it more comfortable? So far I've tried reorganizing the cage like changing the hiding spot areas and everything and also gave them things to keep them more busy, but Minka's behaviour towards Milky is still the same so far.

I'm currently planning with some people I know to upgrade my c&c cage to a self-built two-level cage made out of wood to the size of 98" x 47" (1st level) and 98" x 23.5" (2nd level). I'm also planning to add a second hay rack so that they can always eat hay in two completely different spots without annoying each other in case if there's some tension between some piggies. And I'm thinking of adding two more guinea pigs to the group when the cage is done, but currently I'm still a little bit uncertain because of Minka, but personally I think she does need a piggie friend like Asu again who will play with her and everything. What do you think? I've tried looking around online but I somehow can't seem to get an answer as I've never heard of something like this before.

 

[Pound Shilling & Pig]

Hi, the loss of herd members can sometimes affect herd dynamics more than might be expected. Do you know if Asu was top pig? It sounds like who is top pig out of Milky and Minka is not yet fully resolved, this may be because they are very closely matched in terms of where they naturally rank, meaning it can be difficult for them feel confident in their own and each others roles. You mention hay racks. It would be better to remove them and put in multiple piles of hay instead so the piggies can mooch about grazing from place to place, which is their natural behaviour and not have to enter each others personal space when wanting to eat or to just chill on the hay.

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[daisiespalace]

Hi, the loss of herd members can sometimes affect herd dynamics more than might be expected. Do you know if Asu was top pig? It sounds like who is top pig out of Milky and Minka is not yet fully resolved, this may be because they are very closely matched in terms of where they naturally rank, meaning it can be difficult for them feel confident in their own and each others roles. You mention hay racks. It would be better to remove them and put in multiple piles of hay instead so the piggies can mooch about grazing from place to place, which is their natural behaviour and not have to enter each others personal space when wanting to eat or to just chill on the hay.

---

To be honest, I think it did change throughout their lives until Asu passed away. In the beginning after the group was originally "completed" with Minka's addition it seemed like it was that Kiri seemed to be the most dominant one, followed by Asu, Minka and then Milky. I moved apartments a year later and when they had to adapt to the new enviroment it still remained relatively the same except that Milky started getting more dominant and confident - and now months before Asu passed away, it seemed like Milky was slowly taking her place in terms of ranks. After Asu passed away, Milky was rumblestrutting a lot with Minka like humping and chasing her around but she stopped doing that a month ago already, leaving only Minka unsure. She doesn't really respond to Minka at all and mostly ignores her except if she constantly starts like headbutting her while complaining, then all she does is mostly just chase her away and starts getting back to whatever she was doing before. To me it seems like Milky knows where she belongs now in the group but Minka doesn't yet, even though it's somehow clear that Milky is top piggie out of the two if we exclude Kiri. Sometimes I also feel like that maybe Minka doesn't like or doesn't want to accept the fact that she's the pig with the lowest rank in there now? Could that be possible? Since she never was in that position before, except now.

And I did use to throw several piles of hay in there before I had the hay rack, but it was actually worse before! The addition of the hay rack did improve some things in there actually, so now I'm unsure

 

[Piggies&buns]

I would agree with what pound shilling & pig has said. She may not like the fact she is the lowest ranking.

It is the case that sows have their own hierarchy that the boar is not part of so even if he is the top pig of the whole group, the sow still have their own hierarchy with a dominant sow.
Plus there can be an issue in a trio whereby two piggies get close and the other piggy gets left out.

Adding further piggies to the group may or may not work but it won’t heal any rifts which currently exist. If you are going to add further piggies, then it needs to be done so that it doesn’t upset the current hierarchy ie any new piggies need to be submissive and lower ranking than Minka. Equally if you are to add further piggies who are already bonded, then neither grouping may take kindly to losing their position in the hierarchy.

Adding More Guinea Pigs Or Merging Pairs – What Works And What Not?

I personally prefer loose hay piles myself, but if you are going to use hayracks, then you need as much racks as you have piggies, so you already need to have three in the cage.

 

[daisiespalace]

I would agree with what pound shilling & pig has said. She may not like the fact she is the lowest ranking.

It is the case that sows have their own hierarchy that the boar is not part of so even if he is the top pig of the whole group, the sow still have their own hierarchy with a dominant sow.
Plus there can be an issue in a trio whereby two piggies get close and the other piggy gets left out.

Adding further piggies to the group may or may not work but it won’t heal any rifts which currently exist. If you are going to add further piggies, then it needs to be done so that it doesn’t upset the current hierarchy ie any new piggies need to be submissive and lower ranking than Minka. Equally if you are to add further piggies who are already bonded, then neither grouping may take kindly to losing their position in the hierarchy.

Adding More Guinea Pigs Or Merging Pairs – What Works And What Not?

I personally prefer loose hay piles myself, but if you are going to use hayracks, then you need as much racks as you have piggies, so you already need to have three in the cage.

I see. I wonder if maybe something could change with the new cage? Since it's going to be much larger, which should allow them to go out of each others way well better than right now.

I'd try to see if I could get two younger sows added, probably very young ones? And then see how it works out. Since both of them definitely need another companion, since I know Milky probably also misses Asu's presence, since they also loved to play, even though Asu and Minka playing was definitely more of a thing, but nonetheless. But it seems like Minka and Milky won't get as close as they were both with Asu. I'd try to find someone who will tell me about the piggies personalities before I get them, just to get a simple understanding of if they could be a possible match or not. I think I'd also try to add them around the time the new cage is done, so that both groups my current and possible new piggies can explore the new cage. Would that sound good?

And about the hay racks: I actually do have a second hay rack which is smaller though as it's built into a house, the only thing is that except Minka, no one uses it. And even Minka isn't using very often, despite trying to make it seem more attractive by adding dried herbs and everything. But now where I think about it, would it be a good idea to add hay bags made out of fabric? I used to own these some time ago in my old apartment, and the piggies loved it very much. In the new apartment I tried out giving only piles of hay on several spots after I couldn't remember where I put the hay bags, but they didn't seem to like it at all, they seem to enjoy it more when the hay is inside something. But I could try using the current main hay rack along with adding possibly two hay bags then, and I could try adding hay piles again when the new cage is done, just to see if that would change something?

 

[Piggies&buns]

I see. I wonder if maybe something could change with the new cage? Since it's going to be much larger, which should allow them to go out of each others way well better than right now.

I'd try to see if I could get two younger sows added, probably very young ones? And then see how it works out. Since both of them definitely need another companion, since I know Milky probably also misses Asu's presence, since they also loved to play, even though Asu and Minka playing was definitely more of a thing, but nonetheless. But it seems like Minka and Milky won't get as close as they were both with Asu. I'd try to find someone who will tell me about the piggies personalities before I get them, just to get a simple understanding of if they could be a possible match or not. I think I'd also try to add them around the time the new cage is done, so that both groups my current and possible new piggies can explore the new cage. Would that sound good?

And about the hay racks: I actually do have a second hay rack which is smaller though as it's built into a house, the only thing is that except Minka, no one uses it. And even Minka isn't using very often, despite trying to make it seem more attractive by adding dried herbs and everything. But now where I think about it, would it be a good idea to add hay bags made out of fabric? I used to own these some time ago in my old apartment, and the piggies loved it very much. In the new apartment I tried out giving only piles of hay on several spots after I couldn't remember where I put the hay bags, but they didn't seem to like it at all, they seem to enjoy it more when the hay is inside something. But I could try using the current main hay rack along with adding possibly two hay bags then, and I could try adding hay piles again when the new cage is done, just to see if that would change something?

You are already providing more than enough space for them so they have plenty of room to get out of each others way.
Do you have plenty of hides in the cage?
Ensuring there are no dead ends in the cage is important and that there is always a way out of any tense situation (ie hides having two exits etc).
Lots of space helps, but it wont fix any issues with their basic compatibility.

I'm not sure if dating at a rescue is possible where you are, but if it is, then that is the safest way. You take your piggies along to a rescue centre and they are tried with other piggies to see if they are compatible before bringing home new piggies and risking a bonding failure.
You would need to plan to be able to split the cage up in case the bonding doesnt work and the new piggies need remain in their own pairing (potentially with Minka if it turns out she is not happy in her current group) in a separate cage.

Any bonding needs to be done on neutral territory. So if the new cage is done and the existing piggies go into the cage at all, then you will not be able to carry out any bonding in that cage. It will need to be done somewhere else and then following several hours in the bonding pen and if successful, they can then move to the new cage.
To enable you to use the new cage as the bonding pen (and then leave them in all in it to live together upon successful bonding), then the existing piggies need to remain in their current cage until the day you try to bond them with new piggies.

Provided hay is available in multiple places around the cage, you can serve it in any way you wish and any way they like.
Hay is a lot more than just a food. Its a source of enrichment, fun, somewhere to sleep etc so using racks or bags prevents them from being able to get right inside a big pile of hay. If your piggies dont like to do that then that is up to them!

 

[daisiespalace]

You are already providing more than enough space for them so they have plenty of room to get out of each others way.
Do you have plenty of hides in the cage?
Ensuring there are no dead ends in the cage is important and that there is always a way out of any tense situation (ie hides having two exits etc).
Lots of space helps, but it wont fix any issues with their basic compatibility.

I'm not sure if dating at a rescue is possible where you are, but if it is, then that is the safest way. You take your piggies along to a rescue centre and they are tried with other piggies to see if they are compatible before bringing home new piggies and risking a bonding failure.
You would need to plan to be able to split the cage up in case the bonding doesnt work and the new piggies need remain in their own pairing (potentially with Minka if it turns out she is not happy in her current group) in a separate cage.

Any bonding needs to be done on neutral territory. So if the new cage is done and the existing piggies go into the cage at all, then you will not be able to carry out any bonding in that cage. It will need to be done somewhere else and then following several hours in the bonding pen and if successful, they can then move to the new cage.
To enable you to use the new cage as the bonding pen (and then leave them in all in it to live together upon successful bonding), then the existing piggies need to remain in their current cage until the day you try to bond them with new piggies.

Provided hay is available in multiple places around the cage, you can serve it in any way you wish and any way they like.
Hay is a lot more than just a food. Its a source of enrichment, fun, somewhere to sleep etc so using racks or bags prevents them from being able to get right inside a big pile of hay. If your piggies dont like to do that then that is up to them!

I do have plenty of hides in the cage! I have around 7 hides in total. 3 of them being houses made out of wood, then I've also got one that is originally a stool used for bathrooms where my mother glued some fabric onto the top so it provides more shade, one corner has a hide made out of a simple hand towel that I've attached to the c&c cage where they can hide but they also love to move the fabric of it around and the other two are simple plush houses! So every hide has always an exit extra available or is easy to exit either way, except for the plush houses but I've never had an issue with them. I'll still give them the extra space as my room does provide the space for it and I don't really know what to do with that extra space left anyway, so why not give it to the piggies? Especially since Minka loves to jump around and climb houses, I think she'd enjoy having a second level available, maybe it could release some tension in her? But I have to say, today they're being really quiet till now. Minka hasn't complained so far at all even though she was close to Milky many times.


I actually never heard of that. Most of the rescue centers in my place give the piggies directly to the new owners, but they are given the possibility to bring the piggies back in case if the bonding is unsuccessful, as well.
But that was exactly what I was going to do! I plan to build the cage while I keep my current piggies in the old one, and in case I get the new piggies before the cage is done I'll just build a smaller c&c cage for the time being until the day when the new cage is done (and keep them in a different room as well), and then I'll use that (the new cage) as the bonding pen and hopefully leave them in there if they get along well!

Actually Kiri does like to sleep on and play with hay piles! But not if I just throw the hay inside, he only does it with his own hay piles which he makes by plucking out the hay from the hay rack itself and then he practically builds his own piles of hay in front of it