Large sludge deposits despite low calcium diet... running out of ideas

[morumotto]

Just as the title says, I'm having lots of issues with large calcium deposits despite doing everything I can think of to manage the calcium in their diets. I have three guinea pigs and this seems to be affecting all three (one has had two bladder stones, one is having sludge issues and cystitis, the third has very cloudy urine). Since all three are having issues I feel like there is something wrong with what I'm doing, but I've run out of ideas on what I can do to help manage this. Here is what I've been doing:

• Multiple water bottles in the cage, filtered with a Brita filter
• Around 1/2 tablespoon of soy-free pellets per pig (I've been using this specifically)
• Tons and tons of 2nd cut timothy hay refreshed several times a day
• 1 sprig of cilantro, 1 slice of cucumber, 1 leaf of romaine lettuce, 1 slice of bell pepper per pig everyday
• Sherwood urinary support tablets
• The two most problem piggies get Cosequin, a glucosamine-based medication
• They live in a large C&C cage with a second floor and I encourage them daily to move around, with play times occurring outside of the cage

Is there anything I'm missing that I should be doing?

The only other thing I can think of is that my guinea pigs live indoors in my apartment, and where I live we don't get a lot of sunlight through the windows. Is there any correlation between bladder sludge and getting adequate sunlight to encourage calcium absorption?

Thank you to anyone who reads this. I feel at my wits' end!

 

[Piggies&buns]

Are the calcium deposits you are seeing gritty at all?

So obviously a one tablespoon of pellets is the recommended amount as it limits calcium intake - it doesn’t matter which pellet brand you feed provided pellets aren’t overfed. People with bladder prone piggies avoid grains in the pellets but the ones you are using contain wheat.

Also, be aware that there is a risk of bladder problems with a diet too low in calcium, it knocks the balance off just as a diet too high in calcium does

If you search the forum you can find lots of thread about bladder issues and you may find something useful in them

 

[morumotto]

Are the calcium deposits you are seeing gritty at all?

So obviously a one tablespoon of pellets is the recommended amount as it limits calcium intake - it doesn’t matter which pellet brand you feed provided pellets aren’t overfed. People with bladder prone piggies avoid grains in the pellets but the ones you are using contain wheat.

Also, be aware that there is a risk of bladder problems with a diet too low in calcium, it knocks the balance off just as a diet too high in calcium does

If you search the forum you can find lots of thread about bladder issues and you may find something useful in them

One deposit I saw yesterday was gritty like sand. Most have been chalky / powdery, but those have been in such large amounts that I'm able to swipe them up with my finger.

Ah, I didn't realize the pellets I was feeding had grains. I was so focused on the calcium / phosphorus balance of the pellets that I glossed right over that. Do you have any grain-free brands that you recommend?

Thank you for the advice! Believe me, I have searched all through previous threads for ideas One thing I saw was potentially taking them off romaine lettuce as some have said their piggies react poorly to it. So that might be something I try. I was looking for more ideas because I feel like I've exhausted a lot of them.

 

[Piggies&buns]

Drying to a powder is normal, gritty isn’t normal.
As I said, a diet too low in calcium can also produce the same powdery pees (which may make you assume it’s because calcium is too high) because the balance is wrong in the diet.

The problem with the calcium/phosphorous ratio is that it can fail to take on board the diet as a whole - looking at the ca:p ratio of pellets alone means you could be out of balance elsewhere and in things which you can’t consider ie hay, veg, the soil it’s grown in etc….it’s for this reason we dont tend to use use ca:p ratio.

No matter what pellet you feed, keeping it in the one tablespoon per day is the important factor.
This is the nugget chart - Nugget Comparison Chart
It may help you. One of the most recommended is Science Selective Grain free (can you get them in the US?), but you are also looking to want soy free which these pellets aren’t.
i use a pellet which is grain free and soy free, but you wouldn’t be able to get them in the US as they are from a UK subscription hay company.

Yes our diet does say to cut out lettuce for bladder piggies

Long Term Balanced General And Special Needs Guinea Pig Diets

 

[morumotto]

Drying to a powder is normal, gritty isn’t normal.
As I said, a diet too low in calcium can also produce the same powdery pees (which may make you assume it’s because calcium is too high) because the balance is wrong in the diet.

The problem with the calcium/phosphorous ratio is that it can fail to take on board the diet as a whole - looking at the ca:p ratio of pellets alone means you could be out of balance elsewhere and in things which you can’t consider ie hay, veg, the soil it’s grown in etc….it’s for this reason we dont tend to use use ca:p ratio.

No matter what pellet you feed, keeping it in the one tablespoon per day is the important factor.
This is the nugget chart - Nugget Comparison Chart
It may help you. One of the most recommended is Science Selective Grain free (can you get them in the US?), but you are also looking to want soy free which these pellets aren’t.
i use a pellet which is grain free and soy free, but you wouldn’t be able to get them in the US as they are from a UK subscription hay company.

Yes our diet does say to cut out lettuce for bladder piggies

Long Term Balanced General And Special Needs Guinea Pig Diets

Gotcha! I had used the Ca: P calculator that is on Guinea Lynx to try to find a good balance and included all their veggies & pellets, but as you said there are obviously other factors the calculator couldn't account for.

After some more research just now I was able to find a grain-free & soy-free pellet that I'm going to try with them (it's Sherwood Adult Guinea Pig Pellets for any US people reading this thread).

Thank you again for all the advice, this is good information. I feel like I got things I can try again. I will try to remember to update this thread if I notice any changes. Thank you!

 

[Wiebke]

Some people have reported that lettuce can be a trigger food for guinea pigs with sterile IC (interstitial cystitis) but it is not necessarily a problem with bladder piggies. I would however recommend to feed greens (i.e. collard greens in the USA) no more than once or twice weekly and to stay off the beans and go a little more lightly on the celery.

For bladder piggies, we now recommend a green diet that is combined of leafy greens and veg that is very watery to help flush the bladder out. Lettuce and lambs lettuce together with cucumber are very good for the watery part.
Sorry, my update of that chapter seems to have been accidentally deleted.

Please keep in mind that water (especially hard water) and pellets are the two biggest contributors of calcium in a diet.
Even no added calcium pellets contain a lot more calcium in their diet compared to the same weight of kale, the veg highest in calcium. That is why we recommend to really cut back on the pellets because it gives you more leeway on the veg.
Finding the right spot for you in the diet between too high and too low is a very complex undertaking. You can never only just look at a single food group and there is not a definitive ideal diet that fits all conditions everywhere in the world. But once you have found it, it really massively reduces the development of stones and sludge.

Unless a diet is drastically overladen with calcium, other aspects like a genetic disposition, not being a good natural drinker or something going haywire with the complex calcium absorption process can also play a major role in the formation of stones or sludge. Diet is unfortunately our only access. It is neither a quick fix as any tweaks take several weeks to come through nor is it working in all conditions.
My issue with the ca:ph ratio is that it usually only looks at parts of the diet but not necessarily at all food groups and diet as a whole (including any water intake). This can lead to imbalances.

 

[Swissgreys]

You have already had some excellent advice, however my tip would be to feed the veg as wet as possible.
I used to literally tip an entire Brita jug of water over a serving of fresh veg and only shake off the majority of the water before feeding.
I served it on a flat plastic plate (a kids plate) and at the end there would always be a pool of water left behind on the plate.
I don't know if this actually helped, but it definitely reduced the amount of gritty pee.

 

[morumotto]

You have already had some excellent advice, however my tip would be to feed the veg as wet as possible.
I used to literally tip an entire Brita jug of water over a serving of fresh veg and only shake off the majority of the water before feeding.
I served it on a flat plastic plate (a kids plate) and at the end there would always be a pool of water left behind on the plate.
I don't know if this actually helped, but it definitely reduced the amount of gritty pee.

I do try to feed the veggies as wet as possible, but your comment has made me realize that I wash them off with water straight from the sink, not from my Brita jug. I'm going to start doing that instead. Thank you!

 

[morumotto]

Some people have reported that lettuce can be a trigger food for guinea pigs with sterile IC (interstitial cystitis) but it is not necessarily a problem with bladder piggies. I would however recommend to feed greens (i.e. collard greens in the USA) no more than once or twice weekly and to stay off the beans and go a little more lightly on the celery.

For bladder piggies, we now recommend a green diet that is combined of leafy greens and veg that is very watery to help flush the bladder out. Lettuce and lambs lettuce together with cucumber are very good for the watery part.
Sorry, my update of that chapter seems to have been accidentally deleted.

Please keep in mind that water (especially hard water) and pellets are the two biggest contributors of calcium in a diet.
Even no added calcium pellets contain a lot more calcium in their diet compared to the same weight of kale, the veg highest in calcium. That is why we recommend to really cut back on the pellets because it gives you more leeway on the veg.
Finding the right spot for you in the diet between too high and too low is a very complex undertaking. You can never only just look at a single food group and there is not a definitive ideal diet that fits all conditions everywhere in the world. But once you have found it, it really massively reduces the development of stones and sludge.

Unless a diet is drastically overladen with calcium, other aspects like a genetic disposition, not being a good natural drinker or something going haywire with the complex calcium absorption process can also play a major role in the formation of stones or sludge. Diet is unfortunately our only access. It is neither a quick fix as any tweaks take several weeks to come through nor is it working in all conditions.
My issue with the ca:ph ratio is that it usually only looks at parts of the diet but not necessarily at all food groups and diet as a whole (including any water intake). This can lead to imbalances.

Ahh, okay. I think I will just change up their pellets for now and wait on taking away the lettuce then. Hopefully getting the grain-free pellets will make the difference.

I have wondered if I just have unlucky piggies who just have the genetic disposition to bladder issues, but since all three have varying degrees of issues it makes me think that what I'm feeding them must be the cause.

Thank you for all the great information!

 

[Wiebke]

Ahh, okay. I think I will just change up their pellets for now and wait on taking away the lettuce then. Hopefully getting the grain-free pellets will make the difference.

I have wondered if I just have unlucky piggies who just have the genetic disposition to bladder issues, but since all three have varying degrees of issues it makes me think that what I'm feeding them must be the cause.

Thank you for all the great information!

Sounds like your diet is just not in the ideal area; this can be because you are either too low or too high in calcium and oxalates (which contribute to the stone formation and are the reason why we are recommending to cut out some food groups entirely). Please don't give more than 1 tablespoon per piggy per day, irrespective of whether they are grain-free or not and ideally filter your water. Be aware that it will take several more weeks before you see results.

We know that our diet recommendations work on a practical basis. Bladder stones or sludge issues are very rare with our long term forum members. It usually needs several contributing factors that cannot be covered by diet only for it to happen.

 

[morumotto]

Hey! I thought I'd post an update on our progress.

All three have been on grain-free pellets for the past two weeks, about 1/2 tablespoon per piggie per day. They're not actually very keen on them, so they usually leave their bowls half-empty by the end of the day. They also have been off romaine lettuce during that time, not intentionally, but the lettuce at our store has been looking a bit funky. So they've only been getting cilantro, two cucumber slices, and a slice of pepper per piggie everyday. And they're still getting filtered water.

There has been some progress with the calcium deposits as they have definitely decreased in size. There have been no more big sludgy deposits, thankfully, and the calcium deposits I do still see are all very shallow and very powdery. Another difference I'm seeing is that the deposits are now more often orange-colored rather than white... I know that's probably oxidation, but I'm not sure why that's changed. So overall it feels like we're moving in the right direction. I'm hoping to get them back on lettuce soon, especially now that it's been a couple weeks with them on the new pellets, and see how that goes. Thank you everyone for your advice, and especially thanks to Piggies&buns for pointing out that my original pellets had grain in them.

As a side note: I've also been communicating with my exotics vet during this time, and they have suggested an unconventional treatment for my piggies. Forgive me for probably explaining this poorly, but my two problem girls are now receiving cold laser therapy to help them expel calcium buildup in their bladder. Apparently this type of therapy has been successful with other animals in helping them clear out things like smegma buildup, and they were curious to see if it would work in a similar fashion with guinea pigs. I gave them the go ahead to try it out and so now one of my girls has had one treatment and my other has had two, and they get this therapy every two weeks. So far it doesn't seem to have made a difference, but we're going to do a few more rounds before deciding to continue with it or not. Just thought it would be interesting to share since there seems to be no history of this kind of treatment for this issue. If people are curious about it I can definitely post our findings as we continue on.