Is this saline solution for nebulising?

[Fluffbabies]

Hi all,

My question for those who don't want to read the rest. Is this saline solution? This is my boyfriend who has it with his nebuliser for his bronchiectasis. Do I put this as it is into the nebuliser without more water?

The rest:
Me again. Unfortunately our five piggies still seem to be having some kind of respiratory issues. They saw Kim at Cat and Rabbit on 21st March and she noticed they had only very slight clinical signs of something upper respiratory. The only sign we can really see is their gentle nodding/rocking with their breathing and a bit of nostril flaring. You can't always see it it's so slight but it's there. Their symptoms were hardly there at all so Kim suggested to finish their courses of co-trimoxazole. We did and they seemed the same.. not better or worse. While I was waiting to speak to Kim again I noticed an increase in sneezing and that I could notice them all doing gentle nodding/rocking and I was concerned whatever it was was getting worse.

Kim said it's hard to tell if they have some sort of low level infection, which is more likely if there is respiratory disease present. I questioned that even if the four young ones are related some how and all had some kind of weaker respiratory systems, would this be possible with Oreo as she is definitely not and Kim said it is indeed possible.

She would expect them to get worse quicker if they had an infection and they were not having antibiotics. The culture my local vet did didn't show anything conclusive so Kim is reluctant to put them on Marbocyl or Zithromax due to the degree of risk of being on an antibiotic while guessing. Kim mentioned taking an X-ray but we wouldn't put 6 year old Oreo through that and there's the risk of putting them under for that while they might be compromised so we held of on that. Kim didn't seem to suggest it would be recommended with their mild symptoms. Kim suspects they may all have either a mix of bacteria or they had an infection which irritated their airways and now they are left with chronic reactive airway with inflammation.

Kim suggested I nebulise them all twice a day for 15-20 minutes either with saline to start with and see if they improve over the Easter weekend. Then to phone on Tue/Wed. Kim said we could use F10 in the nebuliser though I would need to ask her next week about the dose/how to do that. Kim said if they were worse and I felt they needed antibiotics she would be happy to do a longer course of the co-trimoxazole (2 weeks for all of them) as they tolerated that very well and it's possible that it was doing something as they didn't get worse while on it?

It's so hard because it's all so speculative. We have no idea what's wrong but I know all five have something wrong with their breathing. Kim said she's relying on me judgement and monitoring because we're 2.5 hours away and it's very hard to get an appointment for all five of them. I feel so much pressure and I feel like I'm breaking but I can't stop for them.

And they have all got worse today. I can see their nodding constantly now, when resting or when standing. It's much more noticeable. It isn't as bad as laboured breathing you see in URI/pneumonia but I'm worried if we do not get to the bottom of it.. that that is where it could be going. Kim confirmed that if they have something or get recurring infections it would continue to damage their respiratory systems causing further issues. The four young ones are only 1.5 years old.

Kim said that I could well be nebulising all five twice a day for the rest of their lives. I'm so tired from losing Nugget, I haven't grieved properly for her because I'm so constantly worried trying to get rid of what this is. I feel like the other five are all at risk and they just look at me while they're nodding but showing no other outward signs other than the occasional sneeze and I look at them not knowing what to do to help them! :'( The thought of having five constant respiratory pigs is so draining.

I'm going to make them a nebuliser tomorrow. A friend is giving me a plastic box and I have a nebuliser. My question finally is, is this saline solution? This is my boyfriend who has it with his nebuliser for his bronchiectasis. Do I put this as it is into the nebuliser without more water? I will phone Kim on Tuesday and ask for the two weeks of co-trimoxazole as well. I just want to throw everything at this to get rid of it whatever it is! We're a month in now. I can't sleep. I'm worried about them and their future. How can all of them be sick so young and perhaps chronically so. I want to go back to two months ago when I had six happy healthy piggies and all they brought me was joy and happiness. Now all I have is worry that I can't help them, even Kim doesn't know what it is.

 

[Fluffbabies]

I sat with them in a very steamy bathroom while I ran a only hot water bath. They just seemed scared. And I didn't notice any sounds or changes in them after. Maybe the nebuliser will help.

Do I put some food in with them while they're in it? I've read some people advised to and some people advised not to.

 

[Bertie & Jelly]

I’m sorry to hear you have several piggies with respiratory issues. Thinking of you. I have a piggie with one on-off runny nostril. He’s been checked by the vet several times and his lungs are always clear so the vet advised using a nebuliser daily. I use 0.9% saline in my nebuliser - saline only, no extra water. I also mix F10 antiseptic with the saline - 1:250 but please get Kim to advise you of the dose for your piggies. He only tolerates a max of 15 mins and I do put some herbs and lettuce in to keep him from crawling up the sides of the box.

 

[Fluffbabies]

I’m sorry to hear you have several piggies with respiratory issues. Thinking of you. I have a piggie with one on-off runny nostril. He’s been checked by the vet several times and his lungs are always clear so the vet advised using a nebuliser daily. I use 0.9% saline in my nebuliser - saline only, no extra water. I also mix F10 antiseptic with the saline - 1:250 but please get Kim to advise you of the dose for your piggies. He only tolerates a max of 15 mins and I do put some herbs and lettuce in to keep him from crawling up the sides of the box.

Thank you I tried to video them rocking but it's so slight you can't even film it easily. Especially because it's hard to get close to them without them moving away.

Do you know if what I have in the photo is 0.9% saline? That's what this 0.9% sodium chloride is isn't it?

So I just put one dose in the nebuliser for the 15 minutes, then rinse it out and use a new one for the next pig? I think we will set up two boxes or it will be even more difficult to manage round our full time shift work.

 

[Bertie & Jelly]

I’m not a medical expert but sodium chloride is saline. I’m only nebulising 1 pig but there‘s not much left of 5ml after each session. I use this one but there are lots of different brands and sizes.

 

[Tigermoth]

0.9% sodium chloride is a standard medical saline solution.

 

[Fluffbabies]

Thank you both I thought it was but I didn't want to do anything to make them worse.

 

[Fluffbabies]

We have F10 antiseptic ready to use now. First time using it tonight. I had been putting veggies in with the girls during nebulisation with the saline so they could be occupied. Especially one of our girls doesn’t like it and we manage 10-12 minutes instead of 20. She jumps around quite a lot then sits there hunched looking miserable. As soon as the lid is off and the machine stops she perks up then is fine back in the cage.

Can you put veg in during nebulisation with antiseptic or would this have negative effects by getting on the veg and being digested?

Also.. four of the pigs looked like they were “hacking” in the nebuliser with F10 and they didn’t do this with saline which we have done three times. It probably only lasted 10 seconds at a time but it was scary to see. It reminded me of when they have something stuck they’re trying to bring up… is this what it is? Is it them trying to move mucus?

They each did it twice in the 20 minutes they were in there. A few times they wiped their nose afterwards (didn’t wash themselves, just wiped their noses). Is this a good sign or should I have stopped?

I will post a couple of videos if I can figure out uploading to YouTube.

 

[Fluffbabies]

Effie

Demi.

 

[Bertie & Jelly]

I use veg in the nebuliser when using F10. My piggie isn’t very tolerant when it’s gone either. However I’d suggest you speak to your vet about the ‘hacking’. It is not something I’ve experienced. My vet did say that if my piggie didn’t get on with F10, then stick to saline. Hopefully someone with more experience than me can offer some more helpful advice.

 

[Piggies&buns]

Definitely speak to your vet about this behaviour.

Are you absolutely certain you’ve got the antiseptic version (I’m sure you have, but just want to be doubly sure!)?

 

[Fluffbabies]

Thanks. I emailed the videos to the vet late last night. One of their breathing was noisier after the nebulisation. I could hear her breathing through her nostrils like forcing the air out and there was hooting. It reminded me of when they get some particle stuck up their nose and they sound like a hooting monkey which stops after a big sneeze. She was still doing it when I went to bed. I'm wondering if the F10 is helping to move mucus and now this one has a snotty nose. Nothing to see from outside the nostrils they look dry.

I'm reluctant to nebulise again this morning until I hear from the vet later because I'm so worried about them. It's exhausting looking at them each day to gauge whether their breathing is better and it never is but I can't tell if it is worse. The only other symptom is some sneezing. The vet doesn't know if there is an underlying infection or if their airways are inflamed and reactive, possibly permanently. I asked if it was just a long term consequence of a past infection their breathing could get worse over the weekend ie. more rocking that is now more pronounced and noticeable all the time and more sneezing and Kim said yes.

I'm at a loss. I'm so worried all the time because it's all five and they had less symptoms than this when they had the infection so they could still have one working away in the background but it's harder to tell until they get more serious symptoms. Kim's prescribed 5 days of Marbocyl for all five of them. I phoned worried that they had got worse over the weekend although no big symptoms such as eye or nose discharge, lethargy, going off food, weight loss etc. Kim has warned me about potential side effects using an antibiotic with inconclusive swab and I don't know how I would cope if several/all of them needed support feeding. My boyfriend and I work shifts and are exhausted already. I didn't want them to have X-rays due to the risk when they're happy in themselves.

 

[Fluffbabies]

Definitely speak to your vet about this behaviour.

Are you absolutely certain you’ve got the antiseptic version (I’m sure you have, but just want to be doubly sure!)?

This is the one... I put 5ml in and have nebulised for 20 minutes or until the 5ml is gone. I've got two nebulisers exactly the same machine but one is noisier and goes through the liquid faster. Which nebuliser they were in didn't matter as they all did it. It's weird how they all did the same thing. These are the four Kim said had very mild upper respiratory symptoms. Oreo didn't do it, she did maybe 3-4 hacking movements afterwards on my boyfriends lap. I can't be sure if it was the same because I didn't see. Kim said Oreo didn't have any upper respiratory symptoms but a very very slight crackle in her lungs after almost two weeks of co-trimoxazole. Kim said she had to listen for ages to even catch such a small sound that she wasn't worried and said finish the course that had another 4ish days left.

I am a bit confused why Kim changed her mind from doing a longer course of co-trimoxazole for all of them (two week course) a few days earlier, to doing five days of Marbocyl. Goldie and Demi didn't have any symptoms when prescribed co-trimoxazole by our local vet, so they were given one week, Effie and Cookie (URI symptoms) were given 10 days and Oreo who had the crackly lungs was given two weeks of it. Their conjunctivitis and slightly wet noses improved but their rocking didn't improve, worsened after the course stopped and some sneezing started. No environmental changes.

Originally Kim was reluctant to try Marbocyl or Zithromax due to the element of risk when we're not sure there is an infection and swab was inconclusive. I asked about a longer course of co-trimoxazole because that seemed to do something and we know they tolerated it really well, Kim said she was happy to do that. That was Saturday. But when I called again on Tuesday saying the rocking was much more noticeable, now all the time and now they were sneezing more, she changed her mind and said to try 5 days of Marbocyl but really stressed that we would be accepting the risk that some guinea pigs get sicker on it whether they stop eating or pass away for another unknown reason. Kim said it could be because they were sicker with the infection than realised or sometimes they think the drug caused it. This has worried my boyfriend and I somewhat and he is reluctant to try more antibiotics after this if they don't improve. The young ones are only 1.5 years old. They have a long life ahead, I hope, to be worrying about recurring respiratory issues or infections in all four of them!

 

[piggieminder]

That is the liquid I use in my nebuliser as prescribed by a vet. Nebulising does sometimes make them seem worse. I assume because it loosens the mucus up. Sending your girls healing vibes and best wishes to you. I have been thinking of you and wondering how you were getting on.

 

[Fluffbabies]

That is the liquid I use in my nebuliser as prescribed by a vet. Nebulising does sometimes make them seem worse. I assume because it loosens the mucus up. Sending your girls healing vibes and best wishes to you. I have been thinking of you and wondering how you were getting on.

Thank you Piggieminder That's so kind of you.

It looks like this will be a long term thing! It's our first drawn out mystery illness, first time the more than one (let alone whole herd) are dealing with something and first time having such young ones sick. Must say I am finding it hard not having answers and not knowing if they will improve. I did take time out for myself yesterday and I get a break going to work but when I'm home I find I am constantly back to worrying about them or watching for signs of improvement. Kim doesn't think their breathing will necessarily go back to how it was even though they barely had symptoms of an infection and we caught it so quick with antibiotics. I'm like how can that happen and how bad must piggies' breathing be after a full on URI or pneumonia!

I feel so emotionally fragile from drawn out stress and not being able to focus on grieving for Nugget. I can find it hard to be in the room with them seeing them rocking but hard not being in the room because I feel like I'm avoiding them because they're unwell and I find it hard. I don't know where to put myself haha! But I know that's not selfish but I need to help myself too. I give anything and everything to my piggies, I need to look after myself a bit.

It will be a personal development for me to handle the uncertainty and find peace knowing I'm doing my best to care for them even if ultimately it's not enough or they don't have the long lives I expect them to. My boyfriend keeps trying to bring me back to now and not worry about the future but it's because Kim said they likely have lifelong respiratory issues now and leaves them open to chronic or recurring infections I've got to keep catching. I'm also trying to think that not all animals live long even though I want them to because I love them so much.. if they're here for less time I know I'll still make their lives amazing.

I'm trying to find that place where you do what they need each day but then step away and carry on your own life. I felt like my life stopped when Nugget died. How could the world carry on when I was in so much pain and life had changed so much now she was gone. I feel like any of my own goals I put on hold while caring for them but that can't continue for more months or years of chronic illness.

As for the patients as I call them now lol... really they seem quite happy in themselves carrying on and I count myself very lucky they do not have more serious symptoms. I'm just worried it's going on under the surface as these things can and if we're not adequately treating whatever it is, suddenly we'll have a full on progressed URI or pneumonia and be fighting for all of them. I know how hard they hide things so if I can tell their breathing is subtly getting worse I fear what's going on could be worse than what I'm seeing.

 

[Bertie & Jelly]

When you love your piggies so much it is so very hard when they are poorly - it is exhausting emotionally and physically. You can focus so much on the meds and the illness and forget to love them for the moments of joy they bring The here and now is all we have for certain but it’s easy to say that. Shifting to that kind of mindset doesn’t happen overnight and I am in awe of people who genuinely can focus exclusively on the present. Be kind to yourself whilst you are looking after your beloved piggies - you are clearly doing everything you can for them - love them for being adorable little creatures and I hope you can take some comfort from the community of piggie lovers here who are thinking of you x

 

[piggieminder]

I hope things get better for you soon.

 

[Fluffbabies]

Kim rang us this evening and said that the ‘hacking’ is expected behaviour and said it makes sense that the nebulising is loosening mucus and they’re trying to clear it. She suggested we take it at their pace and either do it for shorter times to start with then longer as they improve and can handle longer, or take breaks during the session.

Our older lady Oreo has been slowly losing weight over the past week. She’s less than 50g less than her previous average. Her daily morning weigh ins since February have varied between 945-1000g with an average of 975g. This morning she was 939g. It could be further muscle wastage from old age but we’re keeping a close eye on her and ready to support feed her if it continues. I’m hoping it’ll be more in the morning not less.