Is high quality hay 'too rich' for bladder piggies? (Theory)

[Dilly's Piggies]

I have 9 guinea pigs and half of them have had an issue with their bladder at some point, very rarely have they had UTI's, it has either been interstitial cystitis, sludge or stones.

This has been going on for about 3 years, so as you can imagine I've tried absolutely everything to prevent these problems, I've been on here asking for advice a lot, my vet, nutritionists and also specialists, nothing is working and I am doing everything right as far as everyone can tell me. Each pig gets 1/10 cup of Oxbow adult pellets (which is barely anything), 1 cup of veggies daily (cucumber, celery, green beans, bell peppers) and obviously unlimited Oxbow timothy hay. They are never given leafy greens, sugary veggies/fruits or treats. Their water is even brita filtered. They are given vitamin C supplements too. So their diet is basic and has been stripped way back, however the feed is high quality, which has me wondering if quality is the issue, not what or how much I'm feeding.

When I first got my guinea pigs they ate mainly cheap food, like pets at home pellets and low quality hay. I've also had 10 guinea pigs before the 9 I have at the moment and they ate the same diet but very rarely got any vegetables, perhaps a carrot now and then, none of my previous guinea pigs EVER had bladder issues, or any issues for that matter, most of them died naturally from old age.

The guinea pigs I have now are treated like royalty, they have the 'best' quality diet and I have noticed as guinea pig knowledge and care progresses and more owners now are feeding their guinea pigs a great diet like me, more and more guinea pigs now are having issues than I noticed before.

Throughout this journey with my current pigs the only thing that hasn't changed is their hay because I thought it wasn't important, mine get Oxbow timothy hay which is very good quality, all they can eat of course, me and my guinea pigs love it, so I'm wondering if guinea pigs are not designed to eat such high quality, rich feed and typically do better on lower quality forage.

I'm not a scientist, so I have no idea if this is true, it's just from my own personal experiences and from things I've noticed with my guinea pigs, so I wanted to write on here to see if anyone else has noticed similar things or if you have a guinea pig with persistent bladder issues and you've also done everything you can for them, have you tried changing the hay to see if there's improvement? I would change my pigs hay to test myself but I'm scared to because when I've done that in the past they refuse to eat it lol, I only want to change if there's a chance it will help them. This is just a theory or a possible finding for research, I really want to discuss this with you guys and hear your opinions... I'm not saying hay is the culprit, I'm saying it could be a potential contributor among other things.

I look forward to hearing your experiences, findings and theories when it comes to the healthiest diet for bladder piggies! Thank you in advance for reading

 

[Lady Kelly]

Mine get cheap, £7.50 a bale, hay from a local plant nursery and Donald still developed a stone and then developed further urinary tract/kidney problems within 2 weeks following his surgery.

 

[Dilly's Piggies]

Mine get cheap, £7.50 a bale, hay from a local plant nursery and Donald still developed a stone and then developed further urinary tract/kidney problems within 2 weeks following his surgery.

How many guinea pigs do you have?

 

[Lady Kelly]

How many guinea pigs do you have?

I had 4 until Donald was PTS. Now it's just the 3 girls remaining. I don't want to tempt fate but none of them have had any problems. They have been fed a mix of hay-and-straw.co.uk ings hay, Timothy hay and farm shop/nursery hay. I have had Daisy for 4 years and she's not had any UTI's, Poppy for 1 year and she's never been to the vet either, lily I've had for just over 2 years and she's had one bout of womb infection but no urinary problems

 

[Dilly's Piggies]

I had 4 until Donald was PTS. Now it's just the 3 girls remaining. I don't want to tempt fate but none of them have had any problems. They have been fed a mix of hay-and-straw.co.uk ings hay, Timothy hay and farm shop/nursery hay. I have had Daisy for 4 years and she's not had any UTI's, Poppy for 1 year and she's never been to the vet either, lily I've had for just over 2 years and she's had one bout of womb infection but no urinary problems

Oh, I'm so sorry you lost Donald.. May I ask if his passing was bladder related or something completely different? I'm glad your other pigs are healthy *knocks on wood* wish mine were too, I try so hard and I feel like I keep getting punched for doing my best

 

[furryfriends (TEAS)]

I feed a hay and grass diet, with a small amount of veg (once per day) plus nuggets fed as a treat, rather than a food. I haven't had any piggies with bladder issues. It is also now thought that stress plays a part in bladder issues in guinea pigs (in a similar way it can in cats who suffer from idiopathic cystitis). As prey animals, they like somewhere quiet (not kept in a busy part of the house) away from other family pets, not where children are noisily playing and not too much handling.

 

[Lady Kelly]

Oh, I'm so sorry you lost Donald.. May I ask if his passing was bladder related or something completely different? I'm glad your other pigs are healthy *knocks on wood* wish mine were too, I try so hard and I feel like I keep getting punched for doing my best

Yes the decision to pts was made when he deteriorated 2 weeks after his surgery. He had an enlarged and painful right kidney so the vet suspected either another stone causing a blockage or too much damage to the kidneys from the first

 

[Dilly's Piggies]

I feed a hay and grass diet, with a small amount of veg (once per day) plus nuggets fed as a treat, rather than a food. I haven't had any piggies with bladder issues. It is also now thought that stress plays a part in bladder issues in guinea pigs (in a similar way it can in cats who suffer from idiopathic cystitis). As prey animals, they like somewhere quiet (not kept in a busy part of the house) away from other family pets, not where children are noisily playing and not too much handling.

That is a very interesting theory, I can see how that could work... but I have 3 pigs atm with current bladder issues and they have all been diagnosed with sludge so I'm looking at a dietary (calcium) cause rather than environmental. They're all having bladder flushes next week to 'start fresh' but I want to know how they got the sludge in the first place when they've been fed the correct diet from the beginning. My thinking is that higher quality hay perhaps contains more calcium than lower quality. I have had a pig that sadly died last year from an unrelated condition who lived with my current pigs, she had interstitial cystitis as nothing else was found to be wrong, she was a very timid and stressy pig so the stress theory is very possible with her, it fits very well with her situation/temperament...

 

[furryfriends (TEAS)]

Bladders don't react well to stress. Just think about when you are worried about something. We've all been in that situation where we have kept needing to go for a pee, when in a stressful situation.

I think some piggies can be more prone to bladder issues anyway, but husbandry and diet both play a very large part too.

 

[Dilly's Piggies]

Bladders don't react well to stress. Just think about when you are worried about something. We've all been in that situation where we have kept needing to go for a pee, when in a stressful situation.

I think some piggies can be more prone to bladder issues anyway, but husbandry and diet both play a very large part too.

I live in a quiet place, my pigs have their own room, only 2 adults live here, no kids or other pets, they don't get handled much, once a week for weight checks and once a month for nails/haircuts but that's literally it, only other time they're handled is when they need to go to the vet which feels like every week at the moment, costing me a fortune in money and sanity. They live in huge C&C cages and they get along very well with their friends, they're comfortable and even sleep out in the open despite having multiple hideys, none of them seem stressed at the moment.

Guinea pigs being prey animals are naturally timid but weirdly enough the pigs with issues atm are my most tame/confident pigs... However it's not IC causing their issues it's sludge, I'm trying to figure it all out in order to prevent it happening again, as I said in the original post their diet is already the recommended for bladder pigs so I don't understand. I also thought genetics can play a part but there's no way half of my pigs have the same thing without something being amiss with their care.

 

[eileen]

hi,I'm sorry you are having problems.there is much debate about grainless pellets being best for bladder piggies.eg selective science grainless,calcium content 0.5 .i have 20 piggies,i feed a diet similar to furryfriends,and i have not had any urinary issues with any of my piggies. you are feeding the best hay,i hope it can be resolved.xx

 

[piggieminder]

Sending you hugs, this is a horrible situation, please don't blame yourself you are doing all you can.

I am in a similar situation to you. Past piggies on what we would now consider a bad diet living to old age with no health problems. In the last two years I've lost two very young piggies to kidney/bladder stones, have a 4+ year old with sludge and one with IC. I have blamed myself convinced I've done something wrong and last year become very depressed and ill over the situation.

Mine are fed a grass and hay diet (Timothy and meadow) with 10g of nuggets, a green bean, slice of pepper, 2 stems of corriader and slice of cucumber daily. Occasional small sliver of carrot (cut with a potato peeler) as a treat, small romain lettuce or cabbage strip in months I can't get grass (usually only Jan and Feb). The older 2 get pro c syringed daily as they won't eat pepper or corriander for vit c. I feed Science Selective, Versele Laga, JR Farm nuggets all grainless. I recently won some Burgess with mint pellets and have been feeding them 50/50 with the grainless and interestingly not noticed a difference in calcium excretion on the fleece. Their water is double filtered.

My vets are very piggy savvy, they are a referal vet hospital, they are both exotic vets. They are seeing more and more piggies with stones and don't know why, they have consulted with other vets and it seems to be a national problem. When Willow had his stones aged 10 months he was PTS as they said he must have a genetic problem, he was too young to have built up such a high stone load even if I had fed him a very high calcium diet, he would keep getting stones. It would not be fair to put him through an opperation. Bracken aged 20 months had an operation, I wanted to give him a chance, despite the vet saying his diet was so good I had no wiggle room to improve it to stop future stones. Bracken was put to sleep 4 months after his operation, it was devastating, he had recovered so well but the stones had returned, the second scan showed he had mineralisation in organs outside the renal tract as well which points to a genetic disease.

My guinea pigs live in a 2 adult household, we are quite reclusive and don't have visitors so despite being in our living room the piggies live a very quiet life. Peanut the one with IC is a very nervous piggie and we keep his life as stress free as possible. I only handle the piggies for weekly health checks and nail clipping, none are comfortable as lap piggies and we accept that. The older two get handled daily for pro c syringing, they don't appear stressed doing with this they both like the flavour and take it eagerly. They are lifted to and from their cages in pet travel cases they hop in without chasing, they jump into the cases as they know they are either going out onto the grass or are getting a treat.

I was cutting grass this morning the thought did cross my mind is there something in this grass causing renal problems? Both the vets have told me there is absolutely nothing wrong with the diet I am feeding or anything else I am doing it's down to bad genetics and very bad luck. Neither of these vets are convinced by the grainless nuggets, they are more interested in feeding low calcium good quality nuggets and recommend Burgess.

I have had to change my mindset and stop blaming myself for the sake of my own sanity and health. I have a genetic predisposition to stones myself and have had 2 operations. I know from personal experience how difficult it is to control stones through diet and still keep the diet healthy.

 

[Cavy Kung-Fu]

I completely understand your frustration, I feel the same with Iggy and his IC. I keep thinking “what am I doing or NOT doing that I should be?”. Whilst I’ve seen improvements with him and my 4 (now 3 sadly) others have never had bladder issues it hasn’t stopped Iggy’s symptoms completely.

Like you I’ve adjusted food, they get less veg now as well and more grass. I give him cystassist and metacam as well but he still has painful wees though not all the time. They occasionally get grain free nuggets (2-3 times a week maybe and about half an egg cup each). I use timothyhay.co.uk for the hay as I believe timothy hay is lower calcium? Plus filtered or bottled water.

I’ve definitely noticed much less calcium deposits in urine, in fact I don’t remember the last time I saw some. Obviously we don’t struggle with sludge or stones (touch wood) but bladder related issues are a big concern for me. It sounds like you’re doing everything you can but I wonder if it would help to reduce nuggets and if you filter water? I’ve often thought about cutting nuggets out completely as I’ve heard that can help (they’re not that attached to them anyway) but I’m a bit reluctant to do so.

I hope you get to the bottom of it all and find something to help, for you piggies’ sakes and your own! x

 

[eileen]

i think genetics play a big role.you are all doing everything you can,it must be so frustrating.

 

[Rhinocerotidae]

Just in case someone googles this matter: yes, this is the case with my ic/sludge piggie. He can't eat even timothy hay which is too good quality, because it flares immediately his ic and sludge.

 

[Viennese Furbabies]

I'm lucky not to have too much experience with bladder issues in my piggies, but I had 1 girl a few years back who had reccuring cystitis, so I'll try to translate the tipps from my specialist vet into English. (I hope everything makes sense.)
I also have to add that I'm not able to feed grass around the year. This would be great, but living in a city in an appartement, I'm lucky to be able to feed grass in the summer months.

So my piggies are fed hay (as grass supplement), lot's of veggies for vitamins and fluids and a little bit of nuggets from time to time.
Ginger, the girl mentioned above, always reacted when I was feeding a special type of hay that was richer in herbs. So I think trying to switch the brand of hay you use could be a good try (if they eat another brand - spoilt piggies can be really picky).
Hay is pretty rich in calcium, so piggies prone to bladder issues can react badly. The quality of the hay also depends on the soil the original grass grows on. That's why I try to switch hay brands a little bit (but mine are spoilt as well).

Some piggies trink a lot, some don't. I listened to a few webinars of a German vet last year and she said that guinea pigs originaly don't trink that much, but take most of the fluids out of their diet.
So maybe you could try to feed more watery veggies like cucumber and lettuce. But take care to adjust the diet slowly.
Herbs are best fed fresh and not dried, as they are also high in calcium. I would also cut out the daily pellets.
But to make things more complicated it is really the ratio of calcium and phosphor in the diet, not only the amount of calcium, and it is quite complex.

There is also a genetic component. So some piggies are more prone to it, no matter what you feed, and others won't get it unless fed completley wrong.
I don't know about the stress factor (wouldn't rule it out), but I think that the possiblity to run around is important too. Ginger wasn't stressed, but she was lazy. And it is really hard to get a lazy pig to exercise.

I hope this makes sense and helps a bit.
All the best for your piggies!