How to put on weight?

[Elephonty]

Buzz is still losing weight after a bladder op, we are still syringe feeding him and the vets is consulting another exotic vet on next steps that may need to be taken as he is still in discomfort.
How long shall we continue this? how much should we aim for each time? How often?
Sorry for all these questions!
He is happily munching on his fresh veg, is there anything we can give him that's good for weight gain? Tia!

 

[Siikibam]

Sorry he’s not recovering well. Weight gain will take longer than loss. Some do give a little bit of oats.

With syringe feeding you’re aiming for minimum 60ml in 24 hours. So the equivalent of 5ml every two hours. How much is he taking in one sitting? You will have to continue until he’s able to eat for himself and maintain his weight. Veg is more of a snack so even if he’s eating veg it’s not what will help with his weight. Hay and more hay is what he needs. The syringe feeding helps keep his guts going and also contains the fibre he needs.

I hope the consultation brings some answers. Was he seen again since his op?

 

[Elephonty]

Sorry he’s not recovering well. Weight gain will take longer than loss. Some do give a little bit of oats.

With syringe feeding you’re aiming for minimum 60ml in 24 hours. So the equivalent of 5ml every two hours. How much is he taking in one sitting? You will have to continue until he’s able to eat for himself and maintain his weight. Veg is more of a snack so even if he’s eating veg it’s not what will help with his weight. Hay and more hay is what he needs. The syringe feeding helps keep his guts going and also contains the fibre he needs.

I hope the consultation brings some answers. Was he seen again since his op?

Thank you for the quick reply! Yes we actually went to the vets today! we are giving him a very small dosage of a vetergesic at the moment as the metacam doesn't seem to be working so I'm guessing this is unfortunately lessening his appetite. He takes about 5ml at a time so I think we may need to lessen the wait in between, he is still munching on hay every so often but not as much as you'd expect so hopefully we get answers soon and it can be sorted!

 

[Wiebke]

Buzz is still losing weight after a bladder op, we are still syringe feeding him and the vets is consulting another exotic vet on next steps that may need to be taken as he is still in discomfort.
How long shall we continue this? how much should we aim for each time? How often?
Sorry for all these questions!
He is happily munching on his fresh veg, is there anything we can give him that's good for weight gain? Tia!

Hi!

Since hay is making around 80% of the daily food intake (ca. 50g/1 small bowl of preferably leafy green veg should be more in the way of an afternoon snack replacing the role of wild forage), you need to firstly aim to slow and stem the weight loss via hay based syringe feed. In a piggy that is still losing weight but is eating, you are aiming at ideally 60- 90 ml in 24 hours, the more the better. The feeding frequency depends on the uptake per session: 5-10 ml: feed every 2 hours during the day and once during the night, aiming to get as close to 60 ml as you can with a struggling piggy; 10-15 ml: feed every three hours during the day and if necessary once during the day; you are aiming to get as close to 90ml as possible. 15-25 ml: three feeds a day as a supplement as by this stage your piggy should be starting to increasingly eat hay by themselves. You control the food intake by weighing daily at the same time and adjust the feeding frequency accordingly as your piggy becomes well enough to eat by themselves. the food intake of a healthy young adult at the peak of their life is about 120 ml in a day.

Any weight gain will happen on its own eventually unless your piggy is elderly and no longer able to fully make up lost ground. After a bad recovery this can take several weeks to months, but it will happen once the body is ready. Please concentrate on the quality of nutrition and not on the numbers and think that nutritionally empty high calorie fillers are the answer - they will come off again as quickly as they go on. What you are looking for a sustainable long term recovery and good health.

Right now, your aim is to stabilise the weight as much as possible by giving your piggy what they are not eating in the form of a nutritionally balanced hay-based recovery formula feed.

Here is more information: Complete Syringe Feeding Guide

Here are our diet tips for guinea pigs with urinary tract issues: Long Term Balanced General And Special Needs Guinea Pig Diets

 

[Wiebke]

Thank you for the quick reply! Yes we actually went to the vets today! we are giving him a very small dosage of a vetergesic at the moment as the metacam doesn't seem to be working so I'm guessing this is unfortunately lessening his appetite. He takes about 5ml at a time so I think we may need to lessen the wait in between, he is still munching on hay every so often but not as much as you'd expect so hopefully we get answers soon and it can be sorted!

Please note that vetergesic in guinea pigs can contribute to further loss of appetite; it is often responsible for loss of appetite in the wake of an operation. Rodents have a different metabolism to cats and dogs.

How much metacam has he been given? General vets not very familiar with guinea pigs are often counting down from cats and tend to prescribe far too low dosages because of metacam impacting on the kidneys of cats and dogs a lot more.
You can give a 1 kg piggy safely up to 0.4 ml twice a day of dog metacam and up to 1.2 m twice a day of cat metacam. Guinea pigs have a much faster metabolism and tolerate metacam A LOT better than cats or dogs.

 

[Merab]

When I have had post op piggies I’ve used a variety of stuff to help.
A bit of mashed banana in the syringe feed.
Raw oats either just scattered or mixed with grated sweet potato or carrot.
Offering a slice of carrot or a piece of apple when syringe feeding.
Hope Buzz does recover his weight.
It took Phoebe several weeks to regain her lost weight post dental treatment.

I did think that it would be so nice if I could lose weight as fast as she did and put it on as slowly!

 

[Elephonty]

Please note that vetergesic in guinea pigs can contribute to further loss of appetite; it is often responible for loss of appetite in the wake of an operation. Rodents have a different metabolism to cats and dogs.

How much metacam has he been given? General vets not very familiar with guinea pigs are counting down from cats tend to prescribe far too low dosages.
You can give a 1 kg piggy safely up to 0.4 ml twice a day of dog metacam and up to 1.2 m twice a day of cat metacam. Guinea pigs have a much faster metabolism and tolerate metacam A LOT better than cats or dogs.

Yes we are aware that the vetergesic can affect appetite sadly but metacam just wasn't enough!, he's on 0.5ml at the moment but I suspect the other vet may change this as mine was reluctant as buzz has been on it for a long while now!

 

[Elephonty]

When I have had post op piggies I’ve used a variety of stuff to help.
A bit of mashed banana in the syringe feed.
Raw oats either just scattered or mixed with grated sweet potato or carrot.
Offering a slice of carrot or a piece of apple when syringe feeding.
Hope Buzz does recover his weight.
It took Phoebe several weeks to regain her lost weight post dental treatment.

I did think that it would be so nice if I could lose weight as fast as she did and put it on as slowly!

Would be lovely to lose that much weight! We do often add some treats to the feeds, we also tried the oats but buzz stuck his nose up so that was short lived

 

[Wiebke]

Yes we are aware that the vetergesic can affect appetite sadly but metacam just wasn't enough!, he's on 0.5ml at the moment but I suspect the other vet may change this as mine was reluctant as buzz has been on it for a long while now!

Has your vet considered giving glucosamine to help repair any damage to the natural glucosamine coating of the walls if the urinary tract preventing corrosive urine coming into very painful direct contact with raw tissue. It takes several weeks to build up but it does really make a difference in the level of comfort down there.

 

[Elephonty]

Has your vet considered giving glucosamine to help repair any damage to the natural glucosamine coating of the walls if the urinary tract preventing corrosive urine coming into very painful direct contact with raw tissue. It takes several weeks to build up but it does really make a difference in the level of comfort down there.

No that hasn't been mentioned! Unfortunately at the moment my normal vet is away due to unforeseen circumstances, she prescribed him with potassium citrate to try and alkalise his wee and I suspect she probably would suggest something like this! I will mention all these points when they hopefully hear back from the other exotics vet tomorrow!

 

[Merab]

Have you tried explaining to him that it’s for his own good?

When Phoebe was still needing her weight boosting I put a ramekin dish with mashed Critical Care and banana in the cage to help encourage her. I carefully explained to the other 2 that it was just for Phoebe.
OK - so neither of the 2 noses in the dish were Phoebe’s but I still try to explain things to them.

 

[Elephonty]

Have you tried explaining to him that it’s for his own good?

When Phoebe was still needing her weight boosting I put a ramekin dish with mashed Critical Care and banana in the cage to help encourage her. I carefully explained to the other 2 that it was just for Phoebe.
OK - so neither of the 2 noses in the dish were Phoebe’s but I still try to explain things to them.

We have had face to face talks about it but he has just turned away! Woody my other boy lapped up the spoon of critical care we gave him to stop him being jealous (thought it would put him off but it did the opposite!)

 

[Merab]

Piggies!
They make us laugh and despair!
I haven’t anything else I can add - just support and a virtual hug

 

[Elephonty]

Piggies!
They make us laugh and despair!
I haven’t anything else I can add - just support and a virtual hug

Sure do! Thank you for the advice!

 

[Wiebke]

You can mix in some mushed up pellets into the critical care mix or give half and half if the more familiar taste goes down better. You will however have to cut off the syringe tip just below where it widens in order to let the rougher pellet fibre pass.

 

[Wiebke]

You can mix in some mushed up pellets into the critical care mix or give half and half if the more familiar taste goes down better. You will however have to cut off the syringe tip just below where it widens in order to let the rougher pellet fibre pass.

Or mix in recovery formula into the mushed up pellets.

Emeraid (UK brand) is not timothy based but is usually going down much better with all piggies, if you are looking at recovery food that is more to a piggy taste. It is the one I prefer to use when my own piggies totally lose their appetite.
Probiotics, Recovery Foods And Vitamin C: Overview With Product Links

 

[Elephonty]

Just thought I'd update this thread, we just got back from the exotic vet at my practice and Buzz has developed another (and slightly larger) stone.
Sadly with the reaction from the other op it isn't worth the risk of the anesthetic, we are now treating him for the pain and hoping that like last time it may dissolve into sludge that will be able to be flushed but of course this is quite unlikely.
We are taking him back to the vets in 2 months for another x-ray to see if the mass has dissolved enough (if he doesn't deteriorate before then), if this hasn't happened unfortunately he will be PTS.
Not the greatest news but it can't be helped

 

[Siikibam]

I’m sorry you’ve found another one. I don’t know how likely stones are to dissolve though. How big did they say it was (roughly) and how much pain relief is he on now?

 

[Wiebke]

Just thought I'd update this thread, we just got back from the exotic vet at my practice and Buzz has developed another (and slightly larger) stone.
Sadly with the reaction from the other op it isn't worth the risk of the anesthetic, we are now treating him for the pain and hoping that like last time it may dissolve into sludge that will be able to be flushed but of course this is quite unlikely.
We are taking him back to the vets in 2 months for another x-ray to see if the mass has dissolved enough (if he doesn't deteriorate before then), if this hasn't happened unfortunately he will be PTS.
Not the greatest news but it can't be helped

I am very sorry. In our experience, dissolving stones happens only very rarely. Unfortunately, depending on what has gone wrong in the calcium absoption process, new stones can form very quickly. It takes weeks for the body to work any calcium through and any dietary measures to kick in. While you do have a chance in the medium to longer term, you can't do much in the short term. And you cannot change any other factors in play.

How much painkiller is he on (cat or dog strength)?

 

[Elephonty]

I am very sorry. In our experience, dissolving stones happens only very rarely. Unfortunately, depending on what has gone wrong in the calcium absoption process, new stones can form very quickly. It takes weeks for the body to work any calcium through and any dietary measures to kick in. While you do have a chance in the medium to longer term, you can't do much in the short term. And you cannot change any other factors in play.

How much painkiller is he on (cat or dog strength)?

He's on dog metacam at 0.4 and also buprenorphine if and when needed (every 6 hours or so when it flares up).
Yes we were both under no illusion on the likelihood of the stone dissolving but as he is still eating normally and has gone back to his normal self we thought it was best to give it a try!
I am honestly devestated but we have tried everything in the books! Both my boys were on a low calcium diet from the moment we adopted them so the likelihood it's a genetic and will unfortunately keep coming back

 

[Wiebke]

He's on dog metacam at 0.4 and also buprenorphine if and when needed (every 6 hours or so when it flares up).
Yes we were both under no illusion on the likelihood of the stone dissolving ☹ but as he is still eating normally and has gone back to his normal self we thought it was best to give it a try!
I am honestly devestated but we have tried everything in the books! Both my boys were on a low calcium diet from the moment we adopted them so the likelihood it's a genetic and will unfortunately keep coming back ☹☹☹

HUGS

It is such a whammy when you come up against a life-shortening issue that is beyond your control. I have had two piggies dying from a bladder stone related problem - and not for lack of trying, so I really feel for you.

Concentrate on filling every day with love and enrichment to make it count. Guinea pigs don't have a concept for life expectancy; they measure their life in happy todays. You can pack a life time's worth of love into just a few minutes.
I have adopted piggies who were with me only for a short time but watching them having the time of their life means that I will always remember them with a smile and that the time they have been here seems to be much longer than it actually was.

What you are currently going through is the onset of the grieving process, which doesn't start with death but with the moment you fully realise that death is on its way. It is the second most lowest point you will experience apart from the actual goodbye. Give yourself time to grieve and allow yourself the freedom of living the remaining time consciously and fully - this means that you have actually done a lot of the emotional processing homework beforehand so you will be still very sad but you won't experience all the other baggage to the extent you would normally do and you will have a somewhat easier ride.
Grieving dynamics are different from those of a sudden death; overall you are not grieving any less. But you have far more control over how bitter or how sweet the remaining time is and how many precious memories you can create to fill that special Buzz-shaped nest in your heart with. From my own experience of losing over 40 piggies in all sorts of circumstances plus my dad after a prolonged battle with terminal cancer I can assure you that it really makes all the difference if you approach the coming time with an open mind and concentrate on the quality instead of bemoaning the quantity. Buzz may not have the longest of lives but he can still have the best one you can give him.

I know that this guide doesn't make easy reading but the chapter on looking after a piggy that won't recover will hopefully help you get through this difficult time as best as possible and with the feeling that you haven't left anything lying on the floor: A Practical and Sensitive Guide to Dying, Terminal Illness and Euthanasia in Guinea Pigs

 

[Merab]

Sorry the news is not good.
Make lots of happy memories with him now.
News like this tends to start the grieving process even although it’s not a definite terminal diagnosis.
The guide @Wiebke has linked is very good.
We are here for you whatever the future holds.

 

[Elephonty]

HUGS

It is such a whammy when you come up against a life-shortening issue that is beyond your control. I have had two piggies dying from a bladder stone related problem - and not for lack of trying, so I really feel for you.

Concentrate on filling every day with love and enrichment to make it count. Guinea pigs don't have a concept for life expectancy; they measure their life in happy todays. You can pack a life time's worth of love into just a few minutes.
I have adopted piggies who were with me only for a short time but watching them having the time of their life means that I will always remember them with a smile and that the time they have been here seems to be much longer than it actually was.

What you are currently going through is the onset of the grieving process, which doesn't start with death but with the moment you fully realise that death is on its way. It is the second most lowest point you will experience apart from the actual goodbye. Give yourself time to grieve and allow yourself the freedom of living the remaining time consciously and fully - this means that you have actually done a lot of the emotional processing homework beforehand so you will be still very sad but you won't experience all the other baggage to the extent you would normally do and you will have a somewhat easier ride.
Grieving dynamics are different from those of a sudden death; overall you are not grieving any less. But you have far more control over how bitter or how sweet the remaining time is and how many precious memories you can create to fill that special Buzz-shaped nest in your heart with. From my own experience of losing over 40 piggies in all sorts of circumstances plus my dad after a prolonged battle with terminal cancer I can assure you that it really makes all the difference if you approach the coming time with an open mind and concentrate on the quality instead of bemoaning the quantity. Buzz may not have the longest of lives but he can still have the best one you can give him.

I know that this guide doesn't make easy reading but the chapter on looking after a piggy that won't recover will hopefully help you get through this difficult time as best as possible and with the feeling that you haven't left anything lying on the floor: A Practical and Sensitive Guide to Dying, Terminal Illness and Euthanasia in Guinea Pigs

Thank you so much for these kind words We're going to make sure he gets all the love and treats he deserves and if and as hard as it is, when I think it's not fair to carry on I'm not going to prolong it as I've seen too many instances of suffering on my university course as pet parents find it hard to let go and so rely on a multitude of meds when maybe PTS is the most kind option