How much calcium is high calcium?

[Princess Dustmop]

What is deemed to be high calcium in a vegetable. I'm happy to look up nutrition for whatever, but I guess I don't know what the thresholds are for daily, weekly, occasionally, etc. Is there a mg/100g level I could go by? I've had piggies for a while, and I guess I've had a sense of what's what, and I have perused the guides and all, but my science brain is going into takeover mode, so ... humor me?

For reference, bell pepper is about 6mg per 100g; romaine lettuce and snap beans are about 35mg calcium per 100g; broccoli is about 48mg (broccoli rabe is more like 108mg); spinach and cilantro are about 68mg; and parsley is about 138mg.


As far as I know, my current piggies have no unusual dietary restrictions beyond their own pickiness. (The princess is not so sure about many of what made up previous piggy favorites ... I guess royal dustmops have different palates.)

 

[Piggies&buns]

No there isnt a weekly amount, and I don’t think you will find one. There are other factors also - phosphorous is important to how much calcium is absorbed so if you were going to work out the calcium, then you need to know the calcium to phosphorus ratio as well (but that in itself is complicated). Pellets and water have more calcium than veg does, there’s also calcium in hay and that is going to change depending on where the hay is grown, conditions that year etc, so working out even rough amounts in veg wouldn’t be easy nor the whole picture. The calcium:phosphorous ratio is brought up occasionally on here and actually it’s best forgotten about, it’s not exact, not fully understood and quite frankly confusing!
Its complicated and beyond what most of us would work out which is why the forum diet guides are are so useful as it’s easy to follow without getting bogged down in too much detail.

 

[PigglePuggle]

I'm wondering where you found thse values? As I would put spinach and broccoli higher. Also the amount of calcium as oxalate is more of a considetation that absolute calcium, if you want the geeky answer
I wonder if those values you quote discount the oxalate aspect in spinach and broccoli which is a major contrinutor to bladder stones? Which are in fact composed of calcium oxalate.
Generally speaking, as a rough guide, veg under 100mg calcium per 100g is "low to medium" and over that is medium to high.
Parsley and dill are very high. Calcium as oxalate like in brassicas probably doubles the risk of deposition in the urinary system. And even low calcium pellets often contain 600mg calcium per 100g.

So personally I restrict my pellets a lot (12 pellets per pig per day) and limit spinach or broccoli to about twice a month- I give 1 higher calcium veggie type per week, often as small amounts over 2 days, and balanced with a watery liw calcium veg.
So a broccoli breakfast gets cucumbers with dinner, and a romaine lwttuce breakfast goes with parsley at dinner for example. And they always get peppers daily.

Calcium metabolism is complex and not well enough understood to give any definites- you have calcium:phosphate ratios- more phosphate reduces calcium absorption into bone, but does it bind the calcium so it gets excreted, or does it facilitate deposition in the kidney and bladder? Nobody really knows lol. Then there's the oxalates. Then there are genetic factors, stress factors, inflammatory processes in the bladder, differences in water intake, differences in kidney filtration rate...

Its still very under-researched!

 

[Princess Dustmop]

I guess I was more thinking for the veggies themselves than overall.
I can do phosphorus/ calcium ...

Same References (Ca/P):

• Bell Pepper: 5/27 = .185
• Romaine: 35/30 = 1.167
• Snap Beans: 37/38 = .974
• Broccoli: 46/67 = .686
• Broccoli Rabe: 108/73 = 1.479
• Baby Spinach: 68/39 = 1.744
• Cilantro: 67/48 = 1.396
• Parsley: 138/58 = 2.379

Reordering by ratio, it would be:
pepper, broccoli, beans, romaine, cilantro, (broccoli rabe), spinach, parsley

Would this be the order of preference for feeding?
Guides say pepper, snap beans, romaine, and cilantro are okay daily, spinach is limited, and parsley is high calcium. So ... 0-1.5 okay daily, 1.5-2 in moderation, and 2+ is with awareness for high calcium? Or am I missing something else?

 

[Princess Dustmop]

I got these values off the USDA food database. All values are for 100g of whatever in question.

Oxalate values are a bit harder to dig up, but I can look. And yes, geeky answer is exactly what I'm looking for!

 

[PigglePuggle]

The oxalates are the bigger bladder risk, and it is all completely eclipsed by the whopping great calcium load of pellets- and then there is also just what your piggies like and offering them variety, which goes beyond calcium into vit C, protein, sugars, trace elements like zinc and magnesium, and never underestimate the value of just enjoying life because lower stress usually means better health and less inflammation!
There isn't a definitive answer to what is the "best" diet for any domesticated animal or urban human, except being aware that processed foods like piggy pellets or human sugary breakfast cereals offer little nutritional benefit that can't be derived from a wider range of more natural fresh foods.
If your piggies are healthy and enjoy what you feed them, and they get unlimited hay and an assortmemt of varied veggies with different nutritional values, you are already doing all the right things- if it isn't broke, don't fix it I would say. If you do end up with metabolic bone disease ever then look at the calcium:phosphorus ratios, if you have bladder issues look at the limiting the calcium load and oxalate- otherwise, feed plenty hay and very few pellets and a range of exciting veg and the piggies will probably be fine.
These sort of posts, while scientifically interesting, can also trigger a lot of unnecessary anxiety in worried piggy parents who are actually doing just fine- so please bear this in mind, things like calcium:phosphorus ratios being wrong have never in my experience or in any of the veterinary literature resulted in a report of a sick piggy, hedgehogs definitely but not piggies- so let's not over complicate things

 

[PigglePuggle]

I got these values off the USDA food database. All values are for 100g of whatever in question.

Oxalate values are a bit harder to dig up, but I can look. And yes, geeky answer is exactly what I'm looking for!

Ah ok, we are a UK based forum so have higher calcium soils and irrigation water generally I think- calcium content of veg is dependant on the soil it grows in, so outdoor field crops like broccoli will vary quite widely, whereas indoor greenhouse crops like herbs may not vary so much.

 

[Princess Dustmop]

Published oxalate values, unfortunately, don't generally come easily in the same format as other nutrition facts, where it'll tell you for different gram quantities ... but I did find some data on them.
These charts come from the Oxbow website:

To compare with previous values 1 mg/100g = .001%, so values are consistant.

mg/kg would be mg/1000g, so a factor 10 to get to mg/100g ...

Lettuce and broccoli/broccolini I would say negligible. Bell peppers and cilantro, maybe 20-50 on the chart, so also negligible. Parsley would be 1700 mg/100g, and spinach 1200 mg/100g ... so that blows up those numbers from above, but doesn't really touch the rest. Snap beans aren't on this chart.

This chart implies that oxalates go from low to high as follow:
lettuce, broccoli, cilantro/coriander, bell pepper, spinach, parsley

So I went looking for something with more of a table and less of a guess the value bar chart ... I don't know much about this source, Clinical Research Nutrition, other than it appears to be Korean based data, but the chart is formatted the way I'm looking for ...


The parsley value aligns with the Oxbow chart (1700 mg/100g); the spinach is showing a little lower in this chart (970 mg/100g vs 1200 mg/100g), which may be dependent on growing conditions. The non-specific lettuce value is significantly higher in this chart than the Oxbow, though perhaps that's a flaw of the lack of specific variety? Broccoli is also showing higher, but not as much so. Coriander/Cilantro and pepper are closer to agreement with the Oxbow chart ... It does give a value for snap beans, 330 mg/100g, which slots them in with the broccoli and lettuce on this chart ...
This chart would imply a scale from low to high oxalates of:
coriander/cilantro, pepper, broccoli, lettuce, snap beans, spinach, parsley

Of course, the conflicting information brings both charts into some question ...

 

[Swissgreys]

I am always the first to embrace a scientific discussion about specific issues, and I do find the calcium/phosphorus ratio and bioavailable uptake issues fascinating, however I would also say I personally believe it is very easy to overt think things.

There will be a huge amount of variation in these numbers based on factors that we simply can not control such as when and where they were grown, soil types, cultivation methods, climate, age of the fruit/veg in question, storage methods between field and shop, etc. The list of variables is literally endless.

Add in to this individual piggies different metabolisms and digestive tracts, plus age, other environmental factors (pellets fed, water type, predisposition to drinking large or small quantise of water, general heath, breeding, age, etc), I truly think it is far too easy to get a bit 'lost' in the numbers/ratios.

So little real research has been done on guinea pigs in general, that a lot of the theories out there are based on other animals, or a very specific (and often statistically small) research group, which will not be fully aligned with the experiences, breeding and types of our pet piggies.

As much as I love the science behind it, my personal recommendation would be to follow the Forum diet guide.
It might not have numbers or ratios, but it is based on years and years of real life pet piggy experience, and at this point in time I don't believe there is a scientific paper out there that is better.
It is easy to loose sight of the joy of owning piggies sometimes if we feel we have to get everything 'perfect', when in reality if you make good choices and do your best with what you have available (knowledge and resources) then there really are no wrong decisions.

The Forum diet guide is here:
Long Term Balanced General And Special Needs Guinea Pig Diets