How long to know my 2 piggies are not bonding?

[currynugget]

Hi all,

I just adopted a one year old piggy 1.5 weeks ago to accompany my 5 year old piggy at home after she lost her longtime cagemate..

Long story short, for the first week everything was fine (she was shy in the beginning but she started to open up), but then 3 days ago she started being so aggressive towards my other piggy. She's very territorial and would chase my other piggy out of nowhere everytime she hides. She's also barbering her. My other piggy would cry asking for our help. I thought from last night she would let my other piggy has one of the hides cause she didn't really chase her but literally just now she started chase her again.

I feel so sad cause I know my old piggy is pretty stressed and also cause now my new piggy is also very scared of our presence. Even the smallest movement she would run away. More than often I noticed my old piggy would rather just stay outside her hidies cause my new piggy wouldn't really chase her if she's outside (she still would sometimes).

Anyone has any advice what we can do? Or we just have to wait? How long do I need to wait until I know "yep that's it they're never gonna bond"?

 

[Wiebke]

Hi all,

I just adopted a one year old piggy 1.5 weeks ago to accompany my 5 year old piggy at home after she lost her longtime cagemate..

Long story short, for the first week everything was fine (she was shy in the beginning but she started to open up), but then 3 days ago she started being so aggressive towards my other piggy. She's very territorial and would chase my other piggy out of nowhere everytime she hides. She's also barbering her. My other piggy would cry asking for our help. I thought from last night she would let my other piggy has one of the hides cause she didn't really chase her but literally just now she started chase her again.

I feel so sad cause I know my old piggy is pretty stressed and also cause now my new piggy is also very scared of our presence. Even the smallest movement she would run away. More than often I noticed my old piggy would rather just stay outside her hidies cause my new piggy wouldn't really chase her if she's outside (she still would sometimes).

Anyone has any advice what we can do? Or we just have to wait? How long do I need to wait until I know "yep that's it they're never gonna bond"?

Hi

Your two girls are currently in the post-intro group establishment phase (more often referred to as dominance phase), which lasts on average about two weeks.

What seems to have happened in your case is that the newbie has (much to their surprise) come out on top of the leader but is insecure about it and therefore going overboard with the dominance.

Please do not interfere and sit it out; it may yet take some more days as your newbie has needed some time at first to get her bearing. Did you bond in the cage or on neutral ground?
Please remove any houses with just one exit. Place three log tunnels next to each other side by side in the middle of the cage (like backyard garages with frees space all around) so there is no choice between them.
Sprinkle feed any veg and pellets around the cage and make sure that you have two bottles in different parts of the cage and hay access cannot be blocked - if needed have hay in two different places for as long as the newbie is throwing their weight around.
These measures will hopefully help to mitigate the worst of the chucking out and off; which is very normal dominance behaviour, as is a spot of chasing. The behaviour should also settle down in the coming days if there is no contest from your girl.

The screaming is submission screaming and not pain or discomfort. It is an integral part of the dominance phase and translates as 'I am no rival to you.' As such it is pretty effective.

The dominance phase is never nice to watch but is crucial for establishing a functional new group in any new territory; this happens after any change to the surroundings or personnel. It is right at the core of guinea pig society.

You can find out more about the dominance phase in the last chapter of our bonding guide:
Bonding and Interaction: Illustrated social behaviours and bonding dynamics
We have also included a chapter on typical sow dominance behaviours in our sow guide: Sows: Behaviour and female health problems (including ovarian cysts)
Dominance barbering (often from insecure piggies): Barbering ( Eating Hair)

Please also brace for stronger seasons with lots of drama; the shared excess of pheromones and emotions also serves to cement the bond further.
When Sows Experience A Strong Season (videos)

Once the newbie feels secure in their unexpexted new role, things will settle down and they can start being best of friends.

I hope that will help you.

 

[currynugget]

Hi

Your two girls are currently in the post-intro group establishment phase (more often referred to as dominance phase), which lasts on average about two weeks.

What seems to have happened in your case is that the newbie has (much to their surprise) come out on top of the leader but is insecure about it and therefore going overboard with the dominance.

Please do not interfere and sit it out. Remove any houses with just one exit. Place three log tunnels next to each other side by side in the middle of the cage so there is no choice between them.

Hi! Thanks so much for your reply! By far the most helpful comment!

So whenever my old one started to cry for help, should I just let her be? Or whenever the newbie started to chase her, I should just let her be? Also are you saying that I should just put two hidies inside the cage?

The newbie is a much bigger piggy than my old one in terms of size..

 

[Wiebke]

Hi! Thanks so much for your reply! By far the most helpful comment!

So whenever my old one started to cry for help, should I just let her be? Or whenever the newbie started to chase her, I should just let her be? Also are you saying that I should just put two hidies inside the cage?

The newbie is a much bigger piggy than my old one in terms of size..

Please read my full post above; I hit the post button by accident halfway through. You will find more links in it with more in-depth information on particular aspects.

Have only two or three houses or tunnels with two exits in the cage; ideally the same so there is no preference. Control over the best places and first choice of food are are very much par for the course.
You really need to sit out the submission screaming and not interfere, as hard as it is. Your girl is not coming to any harm.

 

[currynugget]

Please read my full post above; I hit the post button by accident halfway through. You will find more links in it with more in-depth information on particular aspects.

Have only two or three houses or tunnels with two exits in the cage; ideally the same so there is no preference. Control over the best places and first choice of food are are very much par for the course.
You really need to sit out the submission screaming and not interfere, as hard as it is. Your girl is not coming to any harm.

Omg thanks so much, everything kinda makes sense now. Sitting out the submission scream will definitely be the hardest since she will just freeze there. And I just want the newbie to at least not scared of us

 

[Wiebke]

Omg thanks so much, everything kinda makes sense now. Sitting out the submission scream will definitely be the hardest since she will just freeze there. And I just want the newbie to at least not scared of us

Hi

Try our piggy whispering tips to interact with her in her own language and not wait until she has figured out humans.
But be aware that trust is a tender plant that needs to make deep roots before it can grow upward. Especially with a somewhat fear-aggressive piggy. Don't rush it put be patient and persist. You have only just started.

Here is more about understanding prey animal instincts and how to whisper: Understanding Prey Animal Instincts, Guinea Pig Whispering and Cuddling Tips
If you want to learn more about guinea pigs, their own fascinating world and practical how-to care tips and information, you may find our comprehensive resource both very helpful and interesting. You may want to bookmark the link, browse, read and re-read at need as you will pick on different things at different levels of experience.
Here is the link to a whole new world: Comprehensive Owners' Practical and Supportive Information Collection

 

[currynugget]

Hey, where can I find the whispering tips? Also do you mind if I slid into your dm if I have more questions?

Hi

Try our piggy whispering tips to interact with her in her own language and not wait until she has figured out humans.
But be aware that trust is a tender plant that needs to make deep roots before it can grow upward. Especially with a somewhat fear-aggressive piggy. Don't rush it put be patient and persist. You have only just started.

Here is more about understanding prey animal instincts and how to whisper: Understanding Prey Animal Instincts, Guinea Pig Whispering and Cuddling Tips
If you want to learn more about guinea pigs, their own fascinating world and practical how-to care tips and information, you may find our comprehensive resource both very helpful and interesting. You may want to bookmark the link, browse, read and re-read at need as you will pick on different things at different levels of experience.
Here is the link to a whole new world: Comprehensive Owners' Practical and Supportive Information Collection

 

[currynugget]

Please read my full post above; I hit the post button by accident halfway through. You will find more links in it with more in-depth information on particular aspects.

Have only two or three houses or tunnels with two exits in the cage; ideally the same so there is no preference. Control over the best places and first choice of food are are very much par for the course.
You really need to sit out the submission screaming and not interfere, as hard as it is. Your girl is not coming to any harm.

Hey there, I just saw the newbie "bit" my old piggy 3 times through a camera she made the high pitch squeeking sound, sounded like she was hurting..? Can't really check cause I'm outside atm.. Are you sure that whatever the newbie does to my old one won't be hurtful?

 

[Piggies&buns]

Hey, where can I find the whispering tips? Also do you mind if I slid into your dm if I have more questions?

Wiebke has linked the whispering tips in on the post but here it is again Understanding Prey Animal Instincts, Guinea Pig Whispering and Cuddling Tips
Any more questions can be asked on this post.

Hey there, I just saw the newbie "bit" my old piggy 3 times through a camera she made the high pitch squeeking sound, sounded like she was hurting..? Can't really check cause I'm outside atm.. Are you sure that whatever the newbie does to my old one won't be hurtful?

Nipping does not break the skin but is a gesture of power. It isn’t a problem. The squeaking is submission.

an actual bite will break the skin and is a problem

 

[Siikibam]

Sows use nipping as a way to put underpigs in their place. They know how to do it so they don’t break the skin - teeth are felt ‘gently’ but no damage is fine. It is hard but you’ll have to sit it out and just be brave. As said above, hopefully she will settle soon, once she is more confident in her new role.

 

[Freela]

Is it a nip (i.e. a quick strike where no fur is pulled and nothing breaks the skin?) This is a really normal part of dominance behavior. A bite (with the skin broken) is different and is likely a sign that two pigs are not going to be compatible.

I know it's hard, but if it's a dominance nip, try to sit it out and not interfere. Remember, guinea pigs speak a 'language' that we don't speak. What looks 'mean' to us is normal establishing a hierarchy for them. We can only mess it up by getting in the middle of things. A nip (often around the neck), teeth chattering, pushing the nose up, etc. are ways the top pig says "I'm in charge." And that squeal/shriek, as alarming as it sounds to us, is the underpig backing down and saying, "You're right, you're in charge, I'm no threat to you." They're not 'fighting' in that sense... they're having a kind of physical conversation where they are actually in agreement about what the roles are.

Some pigs, upon assuming a leadership role, are insecure about it and feel the need to throw their weight around more than necessary. We went through this last year when we bonded our 4-year-old pig Leela with baby Tomie. Leela was the underpig with her previous cagemate, but moved up to boss pig when we got Tomie. Tomie didn't challenge her in any way and just seemed pretty pleased to be there, but Leela was still REALLY insistent on putting her rudely in her place a lot because the leadership role was so new and she frankly didn't seem to know how to be the boss without overdoing it! Over time Leela got more confident and the over-the-top dominance dropped off... almost a year in Leela and Tomie get along really well, I can't remember the last time they had more than a momentary spat when Tomie got a little too annoying (Leela is a senior citizen and Tomie has a BIIIG personality... I'm actually amazed at Leela's restraint most days! LOL!)

I would check and make sure there's no actual injury... if there's a bite injury, that's a sign that things are going poorly. If not, just ride it out as they establish their roles and then things should settle down.

 

[currynugget]

Hey there! Thanks for your reply! She actually bit some of her hair out and swallowed (!?) it. And it was always in her butt area lol.

Is it a nip (i.e. a quick strike where no fur is pulled and nothing breaks the skin?) This is a really normal part of dominance behavior. A bite (with the skin broken) is different and is likely a sign that two pigs are not going to be compatible.

I know it's hard, but if it's a dominance nip, try to sit it out and not interfere. Remember, guinea pigs speak a 'language' that we don't speak. What looks 'mean' to us is normal establishing a hierarchy for them. We can only mess it up by getting in the middle of things. A nip (often around the neck), teeth chattering, pushing the nose up, etc. are ways the top pig says "I'm in charge." And that squeal/shriek, as alarming as it sounds to us, is the underpig backing down and saying, "You're right, you're in charge, I'm no threat to you." They're not 'fighting' in that sense... they're having a kind of physical conversation where they are actually in agreement about what the roles are.

Some pigs, upon assuming a leadership role, are insecure about it and feel the need to throw their weight around more than necessary. We went through this last year when we bonded our 4-year-old pig Leela with baby Tomie. Leela was the underpig with her previous cagemate, but moved up to boss pig when we got Tomie. Tomie didn't challenge her in any way and just seemed pretty pleased to be there, but Leela was still REALLY insistent on putting her rudely in her place a lot because the leadership role was so new and she frankly didn't seem to know how to be the boss without overdoing it! Over time Leela got more confident and the over-the-top dominance dropped off... almost a year in Leela and Tomie get along really well, I can't remember the last time they had more than a momentary spat when Tomie got a little too annoying (Leela is a senior citizen and Tomie has a BIIIG personality... I'm actually amazed at Leela's restraint most days! LOL!)

I would check and make sure there's no actual injury... if there's a bite injury, that's a sign that things are going poorly. If not, just ride it out as they establish their roles and then things should settle down.