Help - reintroducing males after they've been with girls - i know i've been stupid

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zez

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I've messed up. badly. My friend and I both know this. Please please, I know I've messed up. I just need your help.

My friend has bred her guineas to mine. I know you'll all hate that and I understand why, but these are the facts you need to know to help!

I (stupidly) swapped my boys with her, so I had Dansak and one of her girls, and she had max and another girl. So of course the girls now might be pregnant, which was the plan. We had the boys split up for just over two weeks.

We tried the reintroductions last night. Not good. We did the whole wash them in the bath thing with gorgous guineas shampoo. They were fine in the bath. Hutch is completely cleaned and disinfected. Run is on a new patch of grass

But now Max won't let Dansak back in the hutch (its a hutch with a run off the front). Max is the one who went to stay at my friends house. There was teeth chattering, bum dragging, a bit of nipping but no blood or serious fighting. Max is happy to come into the run bit and there is no outright agression. Dansak is in a plastic hut with straw in the run and will let Max put his head in there, albeit with teeth chattering. When D tries to go into the hutch he gets chased out. Teeth chattering, but nothing more violent than that. They are both eating and drinking from what i can see.

I'm not worried they are going to hurt each other, i just don't know if they will get over this and reintigrate, or whether i need to separate the boys and pair them each up with a baby when the babies are born. I can't have 2 hutches/runs. My friend is happy to have one boy (and find him a pal) and obvioulsy not try the mating thing again. So we have a back up plan, it just means I loose one of my boys. :(

Please, i know we've been stupid, but we're paying the price for it now so i could really do with your suggestions rather than a lecture (which i know i deserve, but won't help the situation)

I know i sound defensive, and i can't defend the indefensible, but i just need help! From what I've written, if i just give them more time will it work itself out? Max has never been the dominant one. Its now quite clear that this is what he wants!
 
From what I understand, if a male has already mated with a female, he will see another male as "competition", want rid of him-they will fight. Two males are only compatible if both are unaware of females.
 
Thanks. As I thought. We spoke to so many people who we know had done the same before we did this. They all said they'd had positive experiences and unfortunatly looks like we looked on the wrong websites which seemed to say it would be fine as long as the boys weren't in with the girls together.

Arg. Well, i've learned my lesson, so looks like we need to get moving on to finding a new solution.

Thank you
 
Yeah, more research might have been a better idea before you went ahead.

If your boys can live separately until the girls have littered you may be able to bond them with any baby boys once they are 4 weeks.
 
2280Claire - we've discussed this and its an option. Its wheter its best to put them through an operation, or to bond with a baby. They can live separately until then, no problem.

Lizzie - I know. Honestly, we thought we had reasearched. She'd done it before, the people we spoke to had, and we found several sites suggesting it was fine so long as they weren't in with the girls at the same time. But of course now we know that the people we spoke to must just have been incredibly lucky and we were looking on the wrong sites. I know we've been idiot and I admit that. Rest assured though that the boys, girls and any babies will all be looked after.
 
I'm so annoyed with myself
 
I suggest you find a proper, reputable 'B*word' forum, join it and make sure that you learn everything you can possibly learn before these babies are born - not all pregnancies are easy, there are complications, and it's best you acquaint yourself with as many of these as possible.
 
Its my friend who is dealing with the girls, and its not her first litter, so I believe she's doing exactly as you have suggested. My concern right now is to what i should do with the boys. Thanks for your help though. Looks like its time to set up that second home I have.
 
what's done is done too late now and you'll know better from now on. Your only option now really is to get them neutered and guinea pig married, they may get on with a baby for a time but when the baby get's older they will fight still
 
4piggiepigs said:
what's done is done too late now and you'll know better from now on. Your only option now really is to get them neutered and guinea pig married, they may get on with a baby for a time but when the baby get's older they will fight still
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No they won't. A male will be fine with a baby boy, regardless of whether he's been with girls or not.
 
Really? I've had successful introductions with an older boar to a baby twice now, with no problems when adolesence occurred? Is this out of the picture now too? Looks like we might be having them neutered then....
 
Can anyone else confirm is the previously bred boys would be ok with a baby or not. I don't want to make a mistake twice. Beleive me, i have learned my lesson. I am happy to have a new boy, and my friend is happy to have either one of my boys neutered, or a boy pair (she has 2 set ups) so the boys won't end up with strangers but I need to know whether i need to consider neutering.
 
I have a 1yr old abyruvian who is happily living with a 5 month old alpaca, and has been since the alpaca was 6 weeks old. They only fight if you are introducing adult boars, you have to be very careful, although I have introduced a 5 month old peru with a 14 month old coronet with no fighting whatsoever.
 
Bonding the boys with baby boys may be your best option, I have many boars that have bred in the past come into rescue and sucessfully bond them with young boars. If the males are housed away from females then the chances of the bond working are far higher.

Like with any pairing there is a chance that it will fail once the baby gets to the hormonal stage, only then would I look at the neutering route.

Suzy
 
I'd also like to publically aplogise for my mistake. I promise, it won't happen again. And hopefully this thread will also serve to educate other idiots like me so they won't suffer the same fate.
 
Grasping at straws...is there any chance at all they can work this out over time. There is no agression at all at the moment, they are both sitting happily in different huts in the run and all is fine so long as D doesn't try and go into the hutch, and even then its dominance type behaviours and not out and out fighting. I am not worried for their safety, just whether d will ever be allowed in the hutch.

Not trying to downplay the huge mistake I've made at all, just trying to be sure there is no going back before I say goodbye to one.
 
And thanks too Suzygpr - that's what i wanted to hear. I know any male babies will have to be separated from mum early (3 or 4 weeks ish? my friend knows) but at what age would it be safe to pair them up with m and d?
 
Really 4piggiepigs? I hope its not just that you've learned what a fool I am! It seems that this was inevitable, all our research was well intentioned but in teh wrong places and that really everybody knows this. seriously kicking myself. How on earth do i choose which one of my darling boys to keep? Still, at least i can still visit the other one at my friends.
x
 
zez said:
Can anyone else confirm is the previously bred boys would be ok with a baby or not. I don't want to make a mistake twice. Beleive me, i have learned my lesson. I am happy to have a new boy, and my friend is happy to have either one of my boys neutered, or a boy pair (she has 2 set ups) so the boys won't end up with strangers but I need to know whether i need to consider neutering.
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I have a boar that has bred two litters (he was found with the mum and babies in a box and the mum was pregnant again:(

he now lives with his son and they get on really well, never seen a fight:)
 
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zez said:
Grasping at straws...is there any chance at all they can work this out over time. There is no agression at all at the moment, they are both sitting happily in different huts in the run and all is fine so long as D doesn't try and go into the hutch, and even then its dominance type behaviours and not out and out fighting. I am not worried for their safety, just whether d will ever be allowed in the hutch.

Not trying to downplay the huge mistake I've made at all, just trying to be sure there is no going back before I say goodbye to one.
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Once they have fought and been split up that's it - no going back
 
Sorry if you have already mentioned it but can i ask how old the girls are that may be pregnant?
 
I'd suggest plenty of research before jumping ahead with a decision. Speak to both rescues and breeders and find out what they'd suggest.

You could try:

Housing them in separate hutches side by side. (so they can still talk to one another)

Bonding them with a baby boar. (however this may not last during the hormonal months)

To have one of them rehomed and the other boy to a rescue to try boar dating.

And your final option is to have one or both of your boys neutered if all else fails so he can be housed alongside females.

As with all your options above, I'd strongly (cant emphasise this enough!) recommend to research all options thoroughly and not to rush into any decision,as you have with the breeding. Take a week planning, researching and knowing all avenues that you can go down and go from there, once you know the best option for your boys you can then make a fully informed decision.

Good luck!
 
It's not impossible that you could rebond the boys, there are no hard and fast rules with piggy behaviour as they all have different personlities. In general rebonding bred males is not going to work, though given you have plenty of time before the babies arrive it may be worth a go and bond with baby boys if it fails.

I would allow the boys at least two weeks on their own apart from each other completely, no females present at all in the room/shed/nearby hutches. Another two weeks side by side getting to know each other agiain through a divide. In the last week swap them over daily so they can get to know each other's scent well and they both end up smelling of each other. If you have a read through the Boar Dating Thread I have it should give you some ideas on the bonding process. It's a long one but there's few different 'dates' on there - good and bad.

http://www.theguineapigforum.co.uk/showthread.php?t=59233

HTH

Suzy
 
Toffeewoffee. I don't know their exact ages, but I do know that they are at least a year old, and both were bred within that timeframe that means their pelvis hasn't fused. My friend will know more.

Audioheart and suzygrp - thanks. I'll read that thread right now. And obviously take some time to consider my/our options.

As of yet they haven't fought...nipped, chased, rumblestrutted, bum dragged and teeth chattered but no real fighting. They are currently sharing a run, and each is letting the other eat and drink - they just have their own areas to sleep. There really has been no escalating behavoiur that has meant they need to be separated. I think if this was a normal intro and there hadn't been any breeding i wouldn't be worried yet and I 'd think they were just sorting out who is boss. Will read the boar dating thread now
 
So...I've just expanded their run to over double its previous size so there is more space for them, as I know space matters in dominance type situations. D now has a cat carrier with straw etc so something more solid as his hidey hole. 2 water bottles, food bowels. M has been into D's house a few times, stayed in there for 30 secs or so, a bit of whickering (or the sort they usually do), but no chattering or fighting in there. Not quite sure what this means but he's not trying to drive D out of there and isn't being agressive. But D is not wanting to come out at the moment which is understandable. I'll put some water in with him later if necessary. Hmmmm. Watch and wait. I have hutch 2 ready to go should i need to separate at any time.
 
I agree that it is possible to rebond them. It's just harder once they've been around girls.

I also agree about keeping the boys side by side so they can see each other for a few weeks. This way they'll hopefully forget about the girls and calm down enough to be friends again. I really hope it'll work, good luck with it.

The other options of bonding with baby boars and of neutering are good ideas too :)

I hope it all ends up well and the pregnancies and births go well.
 
zez said:
So...I've just expanded their run to over double its previous size so there is more space for them, as I know space matters in dominance type situations. D now has a cat carrier with straw etc so something more solid as his hidey hole. 2 water bottles, food bowels. M has been into D's house a few times, stayed in there for 30 secs or so, a bit of whickering (or the sort they usually do), but no chattering or fighting in there. Not quite sure what this means but he's not trying to drive D out of there and isn't being agressive. But D is not wanting to come out at the moment which is understandable. I'll put some water in with him later if necessary. Hmmmm. Watch and wait. I have hutch 2 ready to go should i need to separate at any time.
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Oh they're in together, that sounds good that they aren't fighting anyway. A bit of dominance is normal, don't worry unless it gets very aggressive. If they do actually fight (like if one gets bitten) then I would probably separate them.

If you have to break up a fight, make sure to wear thick gloves, or use a towel to pick one up, because they will be scared and might bite you. I had this experience when bonding males and got bitten and it hurts a lot! and bleeds a lot. :))
 
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