Having trouble with two female babies not getting along

[glassdolleyes]

Both are 4 months (Leilei) and 3 nonths (Yuki). I brought them home three days ago. Yuki is very scared and won't even leave her bed usually. Today she came out a few times finally, ate, etc. But before Leilei would have to being her food, would cuddle with her, and try to encourage her to come out I believe, that's what it looks like. But around the evening, Yuki no longer wants to share a castle, or even tube with Leilei. Yuki will make what sounds like sort of agressive wheeking, and wont let her in to the castle. I've been watching them nonstop so I know it wasn't Leilei, Leilei is very comfortable with me compared to Yuki and has even sniffed my hand a few times and taken food from me. Is there anything I can do for Yuki, is it just that I need to give her more space and time? Yuki has only come out about three times a day. She never relaxes or sleeps, she has in the past if Leilei is with her. Their castle is pretty big, sixteen inches but the tube is a bit smaller and has only been in the cage for about four hours. Maybe its whats causing the issues. I'm planning go get a waaay larger one but its insane to me how this started problems . And I don't understand the sudden change when Yuki seemed so shy and timid. (I assume it's a dominance thing but still). Should I possibly separate them? They have a western cage with plenty of space so I dont think space is the issue.

 

[Tnoz]

Hi welcome it can take weeks or months or longer for your piggies to settle into their new environment and surroundings, hope things calm down for you and everything be ok good luck

 

[glassdolleyes]

Hi welcome it can take weeks or months or longer for your piggies to settle into their new environment and surroundings, hope things calm down for you and everything be ok good luck

Thank you! I have been watching videos, I know trust will definitely take a loong time maybe Leilei is just really brave haha. I hope that yuki is a little kinder to Leilei soon. They have lived together their whole lives so far at least

 

[weepweeps]

Hello and welcome to the forum. I’d make sure you leave hay very close to where Yuki is. She’s very scared at the moment. I’d also put a blanket over the top of the cage to give them some security. Make sure all hides have two exits so no piggy can corner the other. They are just sorting out the hierarchy.

 

[Piggies&buns]

It doesn’t matter if they’ve always lived together, as you’ve only had them three days and your home is a new environment for them, they will be in a period of reestablishing their relationship - this happens whenever there is change of territory, so you will see an increase in dominance during this time.
Equally, three days is too short a time for her to have settled in - it’s more like weeks to months for them to fully settle.
As they settle in, they will likely stop cuddling with each other anyway. They are teenagers now so are going to be hormonal and their desire to be cuddled up will lessen as they will want their own space within their territory.

Please don’t separate them unless their relationship actually fails with a fight.
Separating unnecessarily cause more problems as they will go into further dominance every time you separate and reunite (plus, its stressful for them).

Ensure hay is available all around the cage so she doesn’t have to come out if she doesn’t want to.

It sounds as if the castle may only have one entrance door. If so, then I would recommend for it to be removed. All hides should have two doors. A single exit hide can cause an issue where one piggy can get trapped inside by the other and is where defensive injuries can occur.
The dominant piggy will always have the pick of the hides and can refuse to let the other inside. This is why it’s also important to ensure you have multiple of every item - two hides, two water bottles, two hay piles etc - so the submissive isn’t left with nothing.
A Midwest does meet the minimum cage size for two sows (a Midwest measuring 120x60cm), so in theory space will be ok, but some do just need more (150x60cm is the recommendation for two sows) plus to fit in enough hides etc

 

[Wiebke]

Both are 4 months (Leilei) and 3 nonths (Yuki). I brought them home three days ago. Yuki is very scared and won't even leave her bed usually. Today she came out a few times finally, ate, etc. But before Leilei would have to being her food, would cuddle with her, and try to encourage her to come out I believe, that's what it looks like. But around the evening, Yuki no longer wants to share a castle, or even tube with Leilei. Yuki will make what sounds like sort of agressive wheeking, and wont let her in to the castle. I've been watching them nonstop so I know it wasn't Leilei, Leilei is very comfortable with me compared to Yuki and has even sniffed my hand a few times and taken food from me. Is there anything I can do for Yuki, is it just that I need to give her more space and time? Yuki has only come out about three times a day. She never relaxes or sleeps, she has in the past if Leilei is with her. Their castle is pretty big, sixteen inches but the tube is a bit smaller and has only been in the cage for about four hours. Maybe its whats causing the issues. I'm planning go get a waaay larger one but its insane to me how this started problems . And I don't understand the sudden change when Yuki seemed so shy and timid. (I assume it's a dominance thing but still). Should I possibly separate them? They have a western cage with plenty of space so I dont think space is the issue.

Hi and welcome

Please give your girls more time. Guinea pigs are prey animals and not naturally born cuddly toys. The commercial mass breeding of piggies by pet shops and backyard breeders means that they have virtually no human interaction before they are thrust into a complex pet home with expectations they cannot fulfill.

Please provide two huts with two exits each. It is a human misconception that guinea pigs want to snuggle up all the time that is reinforced by all the human-centric videos on social media that cater to what humans want to see and find cute or funny, not to reality or species needs.
Leilei is now starting to be a teenager and is getting confident enough to establish her own group in her new territory. It is also likely that she is coming into her first stronger teenage season.
What you are experiencing is perfectly normal mild dominance behaviour that is at the very core of cavy social life. The rumbling is a mild display of dominance, in sows seen most often during bonding and when they are coming into a stronger season. The submission screaming is the expected reaction to any dominance by the leader and is neither pain or distress. It simply translates as 'I am no rival of yours.'
Please do not separate and allow them to get on socially now that they have settled enough to finally get as far as that. There is not the least need to worry for you. The more you interfere, the more difficult you make it for your piggies. It is hard for new owners to learn to sit by.

Yuki is sleeping, by the way. Guinea pigs normally sleep with their eyes open and will only sleep with closed eyes if they are very exhausted or feeling very secure in their surroundings; as prey animals they need to be able to come awake in literally the blink of an eye. They also will only sleep outside their denning area once they are feeling safe but there are always some that never will and that prefer their dens.

Please take the time to read these links here to learn more about guinea pig behaviours and where they come from, so you can understand what is happening and will feel hopefully much less stressed.
You should find the guides very helpful. Our 15 years practical forum experience and our own owner experience, which in some cases goes back as far as 50 years have all gone into our step-by-step information and how-to advice guides. Since we cannot repeat all the information in every post, you will often find links with more relevant in-depth information or practical advice in links in our posts.

Settling in and making friends with your piggies:
Arrival in a home from the perspective of pet shop guinea pigs
Understanding Prey Animal Instincts, Guinea Pig Whispering and Cuddling Tips
How To Pick Up And Weigh Your Guinea Pigs Safely (videos)

Understanding behaviour and social interaction:
Sows: Behaviour and female health problems (including ovarian cysts) (includes dominance behaviours in sows and sows in season)
Bonding and Interaction: Illustrated social behaviours and bonding dynamics (with plenty of pictures of key socially interactive behaviours and illustrative videos)
A - Z of Guinea Pig Behaviours

Guinea pigs as a species in their own right:
Guinea Pig Facts - An Overview
Journey through a Lifetime: The Ages of Guinea Pigs (charts the physical and social development from birth until death with some helpful owner aspects)

All these very helpful guides that help you to learn what is normal and what not are part of our New Owners guide collection. You may want to bookmark the link, browse, read and re-read at need as you will take different things from them at different levels of experience. We are of course always here to answer any questions you may have: Getting Started - Essential Information for New Owners

Reading up is a bit of work for you right now but it is well worth the effort to help you understand better what is going on and to be able to enjoy your piggies more as they really are (a fascinating species and personalities in their own right) and not as you expect them to be.

 

[glassdolleyes]

Hello and welcome to the forum. I’d make sure you leave hay very close to where Yuki is. She’s very scared at the moment. I’d also put a blanket over the top of the cage to give them some security. Make sure all hides have two exits so no piggy can corner the other. They are just sorting out the hierarchy.

I actually did do that! But a family member suggested I do not, it did seem to make them more comfortable, thank you so much for the input

 

[glassdolleyes]

It doesn’t matter if they’ve always lived together, as you’ve only had them three days and your home is a new environment for them, they will be in a period of reestablishing their relationship - this happens whenever there is change of territory, so you will see an increase in dominance during this time.
Equally, three days is too short a time for her to have settled in - it’s more like weeks to months for them to fully settle.
As they settle in, they will likely stop cuddling with each other anyway. They are teenagers now so are going to be hormonal and their desire to be cuddled up will lessen as they will want their own space within their territory.

Please don’t separate them unless their relationship actually fails with a fight.
Separating unnecessarily cause more problems as they will go into further dominance every time you separate and reunite (plus, its stressful for them).

Ensure hay is available all around the cage so she doesn’t have to come out if she doesn’t want to.

It sounds as if the castle may only have one entrance door. If so, then I would recommend for it to be removed. All hides should have two doors. A single exit hide can cause an issue where one piggy can get trapped inside by the other and is where defensive injuries can occur.
The dominant piggy will always have the pick of the hides and can refuse to let the other inside. This is why it’s also important to ensure you have multiple of every item - two hides, two water bottles, two hay piles etc - so the submissive isn’t left with nothing.
A Midwest does meet the minimum cage size for two sows (a Midwest measuring 120x60cm), so in theory space will be ok, but some do just need more (150x60cm is the recommendation for two sows) plus to fit in enough hides etc

Wow you're totally right, it doesn't have two exits. I'm replacing it ASAP. I did get two of everything, except the hides. I wasn't sure how much space I would have in the end but there seems to still be allot of space. I will definitely upgrade when I can, I'm sure they'll need more space regardless. I've never owned piggies before, so I wasn't too sure about a custom cage but I've done more research now so I think I can start planning it. I was looking into the different categories on this forum but I'll continue more research, thank you for all the information!

 

[glassdolleyes]

You're totally right about them being hormonal

It doesn’t matter if they’ve always lived together, as you’ve only had them three days and your home is a new environment for them, they will be in a period of reestablishing their relationship - this happens whenever there is change of territory, so you will see an increase in dominance during this time.
Equally, three days is too short a time for her to have settled in - it’s more like weeks to months for them to fully settle.
As they settle in, they will likely stop cuddling with each other anyway. They are teenagers now so are going to be hormonal and their desire to be cuddled up will lessen as they will want their own space within their territory.

Please don’t separate them unless their relationship actually fails with a fight.
Separating unnecessarily cause more problems as they will go into further dominance every time you separate and reunite (plus, its stressful for them).

Ensure hay is available all around the cage so she doesn’t have to come out if she doesn’t want to.

It sounds as if the castle may only have one entrance door. If so, then I would recommend for it to be removed. All hides should have two doors. A single exit hide can cause an issue where one piggy can get trapped inside by the other and is where defensive injuries can occur.
The dominant piggy will always have the pick of the hides and can refuse to let the other inside. This is why it’s also important to ensure you have multiple of every item - two hides, two water bottles, two hay piles etc - so the submissive isn’t left with nothing.
A Midwest does meet the minimum cage size for two sows (a Midwest measuring 120x60cm), so in theory space will be ok, but some do just need more (150x60cm is the recommendation for two sows) plus to fit in enough hides etc

Hi and welcome

Please give your girls more time. Guinea pigs are prey animals and not naturally born cuddly toys. The commercial mass breeding of piggies by pet shops and backyard breeders means that they have virtually no human interaction before they are thrust into a complex pet home with expectations they cannot fulfill.

Please provide two huts with two exits each. It is a human misconception that guinea pigs want to snuggle up all the time that is reinforced by all the human-centric videos on social media that cater to what humans want to see and find cute or funny, not to reality or species needs.
Leilei is now starting to be a teenager and is getting confident enough to establish her own group in her new territory. It is also likely that she is coming into her first stronger teenage season.
What you are experiencing is perfectly normal mild dominance behaviour that is at the very core of cavy social life. The rumbling is a mild display of dominance, in sows seen most often during bonding and when they are coming into a stronger season. The submission screaming is the expected reaction to any dominance by the leader and is neither pain or distress. It simply translates as 'I am no rival of yours.'
Please do not separate and allow them to get on socially now that they have settled enough to finally get as far as that. There is not the least need to worry for you. The more you interfere, the more difficult you make it for your piggies. It is hard for new owners to learn to sit by.

Yuki is sleeping, by the way. Guinea pigs normally sleep with their eyes open and will only sleep with closed eyes if they are very exhausted or feeling very secure in their surroundings; as prey animals they need to be able to come awake in literally the blink of an eye. They also will only sleep outside their denning area once they are feeling safe but there are always some that never will and that prefer their dens.

Please take the time to read these links here to learn more about guinea pig behaviours and where they come from, so you can understand what is happening and will feel hopefully much less stressed.
You should find the guides very helpful. Our 15 years practical forum experience and our own owner experience, which in some cases goes back as far as 50 years have all gone into our step-by-step information and how-to advice guides. Since we cannot repeat all the information in every post, you will often find links with more relevant in-depth information or practical advice in links in our posts.

Settling in and making friends with your piggies:
Arrival in a home from the perspective of pet shop guinea pigs
Understanding Prey Animal Instincts, Guinea Pig Whispering and Cuddling Tips
How To Pick Up And Weigh Your Guinea Pigs Safely (videos)

Understanding behaviour and social interaction:
Sows: Behaviour and female health problems (including ovarian cysts) (includes dominance behaviours in sows and sows in season)
Bonding and Interaction: Illustrated social behaviours and bonding dynamics (with plenty of pictures of key socially interactive behaviours and illustrative videos)
A - Z of Guinea Pig Behaviours

Guinea pigs as a species in their own right:
Guinea Pig Facts - An Overview
Journey through a Lifetime: The Ages of Guinea Pigs (charts the physical and social development from birth until death with some helpful owner aspects)

All these very helpful guides that help you to learn what is normal and what not are part of our New Owners guide collection. You may want to bookmark the link, browse, read and re-read at need as you will take different things from them at different levels of experience. We are of course always here to answer any questions you may have: Getting Started - Essential Information for New Owners

Reading up is a bit of work for you right now but it is well worth the effort to help you understand better what is going on and to be able to enjoy your piggies more as they really are (a fascinating species and personalities in their own right) and not as you expect them to be.

Wow thank you for so much information and insight! You're totally right I do need to do more reading. I've been watching allot of YouTube videos but I just found this forum, some of the stuff everyone is saying I thought was correct, but a family member keeps telling me they owned rabbits and "this actually means this, etc." So I'm not going to listen to them anymore. I'm glad they aren't actually fighting, I have watched videos on guinea pig sounds but none covered the topic of fighting, or what you explained exactly.

 

[Piggies&buns]

You're totally right about them being hormonal



Wow thank you for so much information and insight! You're totally right I do need to do more reading. I've been watching allot of YouTube videos but I just found this forum, some of the stuff everyone is saying I thought was correct, but a family member keeps telling me they owned rabbits and "this actually means this, etc." So I'm not going to listen to them anymore. I'm glad they aren't actually fighting, I have watched videos on guinea pig sounds but none covered the topic of fighting, or what you explained exactly.

I have rabbits and piggies and I can categorically say that the communication and interaction between a pair of rabbits and a pair of piggies is different!

 

[Wiebke]

You're totally right about them being hormonal



Wow thank you for so much information and insight! You're totally right I do need to do more reading. I've been watching allot of YouTube videos but I just found this forum, some of the stuff everyone is saying I thought was correct, but a family member keeps telling me they owned rabbits and "this actually means this, etc." So I'm not going to listen to them anymore. I'm glad they aren't actually fighting, I have watched videos on guinea pig sounds but none covered the topic of fighting, or what you explained exactly.

Sadly there is a lot of misinformation and bad information around. What online information doesn't do is giving you a handle on the quality of the information you are looking at unless you are lucky enough to find a reputable source first.

Rabbits and guinea pigs are very different indeed; they are not even the same order. Guinea pigs are rodents and rabbits are lagomorphs; they have a very different communication/body language, nutritional needs and rabbits can carry some illnesses without showing symptoms that are deadly for guinea pigs. We have really moved on from the times when vets recommended to mix the two species because neutering small animals was beyond their skill but especially the older generation who haven't had small pets in the interim is often struggling to understand the huge changes of especially the last decade.

Just take your time reading through the links; I hope that a lot of things will really start making sense to you without the need of going into fights (which frankly are extremely rare in sows) and are generally down the result of a fear over-reaction in a stressed pig. Sows have other and more subtle ways to express their dislike but you haven't mentioned any of them so there is no need to worry for you.
You are welcome to ask any questions if you need a clarification.

 

[glassdolleyes]

Sadly there is a lot of misinformation and bad information around. What online information doesn't do is giving you a handle on the quality of the information you are looking at unless you are lucky enough to find a reputable source first.

Rabbits and guinea pigs are very different indeed; they are not even the same order. Guinea pigs are rodents and rabbits are lagomorphs; they have a very different communication/body language, nutritional needs and rabbits can carry some illnesses without showing symptoms that are deadly for guinea pigs. We have really moved on from the times when vets recommended to mix the two species because neutering small animals was beyond their skill but especially the older generation who haven't had small pets in the interim is often struggling to understand the huge changes of especially the last decade.

Just take your time reading through the links; I hope that a lot of things will really start making sense to you without the need of going into fights (which frankly are extremely rare in sows) and are generally down the result of a fear over-reaction in a stressed pig. Sows have other and more subtle ways to express their dislike but you haven't mentioned any of them so there is no need to worry for you.
You are welcome to ask any questions if you need a clarification.

Hello! I actually do gave questions coming back to this, I understand that I shouldn't separate them based on what you guys said, but I'm noticing that at this point Yuki is too scared to come out of her bed/area she is staying in, and at night or during the day when I'm gone it doesn't seem like she feels comfortable enough to come out, which stems from the new environment I know but Leilei will not leave her alone and is constantly attempting to display dominance. Yuki does not fight back but even when it comes to food, for example I'll put food near Yuki's area she feels safe in Leilei will finish her veggies, run over, steal it or climb ontop of Yuki and start to eat her food, or won't let Yuki eat her veggies and will run off with them. I have replaced everything so they have two of everything, but Leilei still wants everything Yuki uses/eats is that normal? I will say, the displays of dominance have been happening less it seems since Yuki clearly doesn't want to fight over it, but it doesn't seem like Yuki is eating or really doing anything. I have a night cam and when it's late, sometimes she'll come out but that's about it.

 

[Piggies&buns]

So, it’s normal for the dominant to try to steal food but it becomes a problem when the submissive cannot eat enough hay and consequently loses weight.

Constant dominance behaviours from the dominant piggy which result in the submissive becoming withdrawn, never being left alone, losing weight through not being allowed to eat enough hay, can mean it has tipped over into bullying. Proper sustained bullying is bond breaking and would most likely mean permanent separation if the relationship is no longer functioning. (Separating a Midwest cage isn’t possible due to it being too small, so you would need two separate cages should that need to happen).

You are in a difficult situation though given they are new so will be scared and in a new territory will be reestablishing the relationship, so it’s going to take some careful monitoring from you to be certain of what you are seeing - is this just a case of a scared submissive and confident dominant which will right itself once Yuki realises she is safe; or are there deeper problems in their relationship. We cannot know I’m afraid but we can give you the relevant guides and therefore the tools for you to understand what you are seeing

I would literally cover the whole cage with hay so Yuki does not need to go anywhere to eat hay. If Leilei steals all Yuki’s veggies for now, well its not ideal but they are only 15% of the daily food intake - if her hay intake is reduced, then that is a problem. The only way to know a piggy is getting enough hay is through the routine weight checks.
I would put Yuki’s veg where she is comfortable and then spread Leilei’s out at the opposite end of the cage - literally scatter it, not just in a pile, over a big area and in amongst hay so she has to rummage and forage for her food. This will mean it should take her longer to eat it and give Yuki more chance to eat hers.

Moody Guinea Pigs: Depression, Bullying, Aggression, Stress, Fear and Antisocial Behaviour
Bonds In Trouble

 

[glassdolleyes]

So, it’s normal for the dominant to try to steal food but it becomes a problem when the submissive cannot eat enough hay and consequently loses weight.

Constant dominance behaviours from the dominant piggy which result in the submissive becoming withdrawn, never being left alone, losing weight through not being allowed to eat enough hay, can mean it has tipped over into bullying. Proper sustained bullying is bond breaking and would most likely mean permanent separation if the relationship is no longer functioning. (Separating a Midwest cage isn’t possible due to it being too small, so you would need two separate cages should that need to happen).

You are in a difficult situation though given they are new so will be scared and in a new territory will be reestablishing the relationship, so it’s going to take some careful monitoring from you to be certain of what you are seeing - is this just a case of a scared submissive and confident dominant which will right itself once Yuki realises she is safe; or are there deeper problems in their relationship. We cannot know I’m afraid but we can give you the relevant guides and therefore the tools for you to understand what you are seeing

I would literally cover the whole cage with hay so Yuki does not need to go anywhere to eat hay. If Leilei steals all Yuki’s veggies for now, well its not ideal but they are only 15% of the daily food intake - if her hay intake is reduced, then that is a problem. The only way to know a piggy is getting enough hay is through the routine weight checks.
I would put Yuki’s veg where she is comfortable and then spread Leilei’s out at the opposite end of the cage - literally scatter it, not just in a pile, over a big area and in amongst hay so she has to rummage and forage for her food. This will mean it should take her longer to eat it and give Yuki more chance to eat hers.

Moody Guinea Pigs: Depression, Bullying, Aggression, Stress, Fear and Antisocial Behaviour
Bonds In Trouble

The hay part, is really smart. I did separate them shortly last night and like one of those pages said, I don't think Leilei realizes she is bullying or being agressive, when I separated them she was putting her paws up on the divider, and trying to go on Yukis side and searching for Yuki. They have been fighting less today and are sleeping together. Yuki seemed more relaxed with the divider but was still too scared to come out. I know they are not settled in but Leilei is dramatically more comfortable than Yuki, she's been popcorning, running around, playing. I'm planning to start researching into custom cages, more space will definitely help as everyone said.

 

[Siikibam]

Hopefully the dominance behaviour will settle down soon. But please do be careful when using the word fighting. I don’t think (by the sounds of things) that’s what they’re doing.

Some piggies are more nervous than others so do just be patient with her. Hopefully she will come out of her shell (and hiding) when she feels more comfortable.

 

[weepweeps]

I hope they settle down soon.

 

[glassdolleyes]

I hope they settle down soon.

Things have been allot better! (I think) yuki is still very shy of course, but Leileis constant pestering seems to bother her much less even though her wheek sounds like she may be scared. I know someone in this thread or J read somewhere on here it's more of a I don't want to fight for dominance sound, but there's been allot less mounting on Leileis part, she's been sniffing Yukis butt though, still tries to go for her food but Yuki seems to be getting used to it and goes for another piece of food,and it doesn't seem to be bothering her as much. I put allot of hay in the cage as I said, and cage in her hidey hole. Yuki came up to me today or the edge of the cage and sniffed me! She was also exploring allot and putting her little paws up on the cage and looking around. Leileis been running around, she starts doing these weird spins and jumps, it's pretty adorable. She also tries to get Yuki to run around with her. But I believe that's more of a dominance thing? Either way I'm glad they're doing much better. When I sleep they run around too, they're silly piggies. Thank you guys for all the input and help so far. This forum has been so helpful I can't thank you enough! Here is a picture of them, Leilei is on the right, Yuki is on the left

 

[Freela]

I'm glad they're settling in better, particularly Yuki. Some pigs can go overboard a bit with dominance behaviors as they try to forge their space in the hierarchy. My current pair (5-year-old Leela and 1-year-old Tomie) went through about a 6-month period of Leela being an absolutely over-the-top diva... in her case she went from a subordinate pig with her previous cagemate to the boss of baby Tomie and was insecure about it and really afraid that if she gave Tomie an inch, she would take a mile (Tomie, for her part, had no inclination to be the boss at all and was just thankful to have an adult pig to stick with.)

There's very much a wide range of pig personalities and Leilei sounds more exuberant, with all the running and popcorning around, whereas Yuki seems more cautious. Both are normal. Enjoy these little personality traits for what they are, as they truly are unique to each piggie and part of what makes them special.

Try not to worry too much about the 'submission shriek' that pigs do. They really aren't scared, they're just telling the dominant pig that they're not a threat or rival. It sounds worse than it is to human ears!