Guinea pig long-term weight loss - renal or something else?

[Kate0]

My beautiful 4 year old Toffee has had a long history of drinking lots of water and weight loss, and multiple trips to vets (inc now exotic specialists). Weighed a healthy 1.20kg until about 18 months old, and has been in a steady decline since (nearly 4 years old - dropped to 1.17, then 1.10, then 1.05, then 1. over 2 1/2 years

Has been given various painkillers and medications and each time, has maintained weight for months before dropping again further down the line. Ttook her to the vets last month when under a kg and now 840g so a big drop in a month (weighing daily and has been dropping steadily - not gaining at all).Teeth fine, ultrasound clear, but blood and urine tests suggest potential renal issues although not obvious. Based on this and history/water consumption, piggie specialist has diagnosed terminal renal failure. Vet said to come back when she got to 800g and she'd get painkillers.

However, I'm finding it so hard to just watch her waste away! She's 'fine in herself' - hungry, squeeky, happy - acting normally with her cage mates - just feels so boney and light. Do I go back to vets and ask for 'something' to help sustain her? Or is there (clutcing at straws here) anything else it might be rather than renal failure?

 

[Free Ranger]

I suppose it's whether the proposed renal failure is actually affecting her eating - making her eat less than she should because of discomfort or not feeling quite right - or whether it's a metabolic issue that is making her lose weight despite eating enough. They can get diabetes - but that's outside my area and I'm not sure what 'treatment' there would be - although there are certainly dietary adjustments. Did they mention diabetes or check for it? I think it's a blood or urine test.

One thing that does give me pause is that we usually read about kidney failure in old pigs, maybe pigs who haven't shown signs before but are suddenly drinking more and wet beneath - and generally looking a bit rough and unwell. I suppose I think of it as an end-of-life issue and I presumed that it wasn't something you could live with long-term(?) But it sounds like Toffee has been pretty 'well' in herself for a very long time - 2 1/2 years - apart from weight loss and drinking. What sort of meds has she been given? Metacam (or Loxicom) presumably but anything else?

There are foods that people give which are high calorie and can help with regaining weight when a piggy has lost some due to a bout of illness. Grated sweet potato or oats for instance. But if diabetes is the problem sugary foods need to be avoided. You could always try offering top-ups of Recovery food (the sort that gets syringe fed when their eating slows) and you may have done this before. These foods are high fibre but I don't know about the calorific content. But whereas poorly piggies can turn up their noses at a slurry mix my experience is that a healthy pig will hoover it up off a little dish before you can blink!

 

[Kate0]

She appears to be eating normally - certainly hay and veggies. Have been offering mushed up pellets/critical care on a spoon which she now turns away from (have today ordered some alternative flavours as imagine she'd be sick of it by now so hoping that's why). Will try oats and sweet potato - good idea.

Vet suggested weight loss was due to lack of protein due to kidney failure. PRetty sure diabetes was looked for in blood/urine tests.

Yes, she's been well. Only symptom has been weight loss which tbh I'm not sure we'd have picked up without weekly weighings (at first anyway). From memory - Metacam (twice), and cystese (glucosamine). Did ask if we could continue prescrption but I think metacam is bad for kidneys so next pain killer would be gabapetin and tramadol.

 

[Josie_lg]

Did they check thyroid levels at all with the bloods? Sending hugs xx

 

[Free Ranger]

Double-check with your vet about the diabetes test because any dietary changes can make or break things depending on that! Did they test for protein and find it was low or is that just speculation? I mean, obviously very experienced and trained speculation - I'm not a vet - but you know what I mean!

George is 6 and has been on metacam for over two years for arthritis. He's not a rare case here. He was having about 0.23ml of the 'dog strength' 1.5mg/ml twice a day. He is very fond of his dose! Recently that has been upped to about 0.35ml twice a day because he now has a bladder stone and UTI. But for 2 years he had plenty of metacam and no stones... I think his stones are age-related rather than meds-related. If you really have a genuine kidney issue I can understand vet being wary about any medications at all. But metacam is generally very well tolerated and you are going to be balancing any of the more serious pain relief prescriptions against things like appetite suppression and whether Toffee actually feels well on the meds.

Apart from her weight loss is there any other symptom that makes you think she might be in pain?

 

[Kate0]

Nothing to suggest she's in pain. She also loved metacam and would snatch the syringe from my hands given the chance! I wish they'd given it to her again as would make me feel better knowing pain is unlikely.

I can't remember exactly what was said re. bloods... The vet who ordered the latest investigations thought there was nothing indicative of kidney issues in results but could be cystitis and gave her metacam and catease. Second vet who saw her last thought there was some indication of kidney issues in results - protein levels mentioned but can't remember exactly what.

 

[eileen]

I had a boar Finley who kept loosing weight,he was 1.2kgs in his hey days,he went down to 740grams.He was very active ,eating lots.my vet commenced him on thyronorm for hyperthyroidism.His weight settled at 800grams.He also had some renal failure.Finley lived until he was 7 years of age.he was on this medication for 20 months.

 

[Free Ranger]

There are two types of cystitis to consider - bacterial (caused by infection, treated with antibiotics) and 'sterile' (no bacteria detected but piggy still has repeated 'flare ups'). Yes, you could lose weight with these and both might well cause more drinking but the overwhelming symptoms are usually very painful pees. Piggy will range from quiet chirping to loud, pained shrieks depending on how bad it is. Piggy will generally be wet underneath from inflammation and dripping pee. Sows sometimes look like they have a dirty bottom - esp obvious in the white ones. The pee will often have a distinct blood tint, sometimes appearing bright red or possibly quite pink. And once this starts it isn't a one off - the infection or the SIC flare-up gets worse over days - often you're at the vet before the end of the week. It's not something that slips under the radar for months at a time, and it's not really the sort of thing you think of for a piggy who's weight has slowly dropped over years but who's generally well in herself.

Another question: have you seen any signs of hair loss or balding on her flanks? They can get cysts on their ovaries which can sometimes affect appetite. My friends pigs lost a bit of weight but she noticed the thinning hair first. Then when she looked down at them from the top they looked a different shape - thin and bony round the shoulder but wide and lumpy on the flanks - like a very exaggerated pear. Mind you, again you'd be thinking this perhaps wouldn't have been going on for so long.

@Wiebke when you have time perhaps you can cast an eye over the original post here? Would diabetes or hyperthyroidism be worth looking into for 4 year old Toffee who seems to have chronic rather than acute symptoms of drinking lots and weight loss over 2 1/2 years.

 

[Wiebke]

Hi

With the combination of sustained increased drinking and weight loss you are usually looking first at kidney failure and - once that has been excluded - at potentially diabetes or hyperthyroidism - the latter is usually additionally characterised by edgy/impatient behaviour and being hungry all the time. I would check with your vets whether these two issues have already been excluded by your vets as well.

Cushings is thankfully very rare in guinea pigs. Weight loss and in some cases increased drinking in these cases is accompanied by irregular patchy hair loss as the particular marker but you aren't mentioning any of that. The progression would also be much faster than what you are reporting.
Most cases we have seen (just about a handful or so over the years) were in the last stages with very quick weight and hair loss by the time they were diagnosed. I am mentioning this here only so it can be ruled out again straight away. But as with any small organ/gland failure, there is virtually no research and major difficulty in diagnosis, not to mention reliable and effective treatment as a result when it comes to guinea pigs.


With sterile IC you don't in my own experience with it making the rounds through my piggies twice in over a decade see a sustained higher water intake or continuing gradual weight loss (weight can be somewhat lower in acute IC piggies but it is generally stable) and you usually see the typical urinary tract issue symptoms - squeaking when peeing and pooing initially and then repeatedly during flares.

I have/have had several borderline cases where it only makes an appearance during or in the wake of stressful situations (like the loss of a companion etc.) but none of these have had marked changes in their drinking behaviours or a continued weight loss; my other healthy piggies that do not suffer from an underlying very nervous disposition have been able to fend off sterile IC with their own immune system without ever having more than temporarily higher urination, which stains the hay in their trays a bright yellow.
In the higher end cases of sterile IC, it is basically a continuous bad infection with very strong urinary tract symptoms that can at the very worst not be brought under control.

I am very sorry. Kidney failure is sadly not at all uncommon in guinea pigs. If it is effecting your precious bundle of fur at a comparatively young age, then there is most likely a strong genetic disposition in play, whatever it exactly is. There is not much in the way of effective treatment for it in small animals. Vets are very much working right at the sharp edge of the medical horizon when it comes to guinea pigs with your symptoms.

I've lost a 4 /12 years old to badly mis-shapen kidneys in June but that kind of kidney problem doesn't come with increased drinking or a long term slow weight loss.

HUGS

 

[Kate0]

Thanks for the responses, really appreciate it. Will call vets tomorrow.

There's no sign of pain when weeing. No damp/dirty bottom or blood in urine. She's never wee'd on us so hard to say if she's weeing more - would expect her to be given the amount she'd drinking. No bald patches.

I don't think Hyperthyroidism has been mentioned by vets. No lumps on neck but certainly hungry all the time (although hard to tell with piggies - she's first out running when the bag rustles!).

 

[Kate0]

Just wanted to give an update on Toffee.

I emailed the vets re. testing for diabetes and hyperthyroidism (and to book an appintment) but have not heard back.

Toffee's weight continued to slide to 810g. While waiting for vets to get back to me, I started supplementing her with a little oats, CC and mashed up pellets. She has maintained well on this, still skinny but daily weigh in now generally 850g (up to 880g one day!). She is enjoying it!

One thing that is interesting is her behaviour. Not sure if it's the hunger and new-found lightness, but she's taken to climbing up onto the sofa. It's very cute but I've never seen anything like it before. If they are having roaming time, she'll have a run around then climb up nearby cushions. None of the others are attempting it.

 

[Wiebke]

Just wanted to give an update on Toffee.

I emailed the vets re. testing for diabetes and hyperthyroidism (and to book an appintment) but have not heard back.

Toffee's weight continued to slide to 810g. While waiting for vets to get back to me, I started supplementing her with a little oats, CC and mashed up pellets. She has maintained well on this, still skinny but daily weigh in now generally 850g (up to 880g one day!). She is enjoying it!

One thing that is interesting is her behaviour. Not sure if it's the hunger and new-found lightness, but she's taken to climbing up onto the sofa. It's very cute but I've never seen anything like it before. If they are having roaming time, she'll have a run around then climb up nearby cushions. None of the others are attempting it.

Please send a reminder or give the clinic a call. They are currently very busy.
All the best! Glad that Toffee is hanging in there.