Fighting, Who Do I Isolate?

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FluffyPigMama

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So, I have 5 boars (I'm trying to find a good vet to get them fixed just to be safe, but I know that won't change anything about them), they were all bought at the same time, but at 2 different locations, mostly healthy, they've been together for about a month (give or take), and 2 of them won't stop fighting. There's never any blood drawn (that I can find at least) but it's gotten to the point where Qrow (the loser in almost all cases) has a giant bald patch on his poor bum! For now I've "isolated" Ren (the instigator) (cut off a 4 x 2 part of the 4 x 8 cage... give or take a bit since the dividers are at an angle so that they'll mesh) but I'm wondering if I should have isolated Qrow instead?

The other boys (Roman/Jaune, Ironwood and Neptune) never get involved in any of the scuffles and are all perfectly fine, I've left them on the larger side with Qrow, everyone can still see/hear/smell everyone, and I'm hoping that after a while they'll be able to go back together but I want to make sure I do this right.
 
So, I have 5 boars (I'm trying to find a good vet to get them fixed just to be safe, but I know that won't change anything about them), they were all bought at the same time, but at 2 different locations, mostly healthy, they've been together for about a month (give or take), and 2 of them won't stop fighting. There's never any blood drawn (that I can find at least) but it's gotten to the point where Qrow (the loser in almost all cases) has a giant bald patch on his poor bum! For now I've "isolated" Ren (the instigator) (cut off a 4 x 2 part of the 4 x 8 cage... give or take a bit since the dividers are at an angle so that they'll mesh) but I'm wondering if I should have isolated Qrow instead?

The other boys (Roman/Jaune, Ironwood and Neptune) never get involved in any of the scuffles and are all perfectly fine, I've left them on the larger side with Qrow, everyone can still see/hear/smell everyone, and I'm hoping that after a while they'll be able to go back together but I want to make sure I do this right.

Hi and welcome

Please be aware that small boar groups are the most unstable constellation. Boars work either in pairs or in larger groups (ideally over 10) with lots of space to allow them to get away from each other.

Neutering does NOT change:
- unsolved dominance issues
- personal dislikes
- bullying
- personalities

It does NOT calm down your boys and does NOT make them get along. All it does is take away their ability to make babies. Guinea pigs are not rabbits. Their social behaviour is NOT influenced by neutering, nor is neutering giving you any long term health benefits.

I would strongly recommend to split your boys into their old groups again. the current situation is highly stressful for all boys.
Boars: Bullying, Fighting, Fall-outs And What Next?

Please have Ren vet checked to see whether he has (invisible) mange mites. Do not treat on spec with a cheap low dosed broad spectrum shop brand that is not strong enough in an acute outbreak. If mites are confirmed, you need to treat all 5 boys for them. Mange mites can hit when the immune system is lowered through stress or illness.
Guinea Lynx :: Mange Mites



upload_2017-5-9_21-44-15.webp
 
I'm aware neutering does nothing for their dominance stuff, but I intend to work as a vet, and currently work in the grooming salon of a petco, so I don't want to accidentally bring home sow-smell and have it agitate them (or any other similar smells, to be frank)

Honestly the only one that fights is Ren. The others accept Ren and Qrow as dominant and never quibble... At this point it may just be easiest to rehome Ren...

There is no excessive scratching that might indicate mites, I'm fairly certain there's just been a lot of nipping. Especially as there are no other bald spots (this one is roughly 2 cm across and almost perfectly round, just off to the right of his spine) and there are many small lumps under the fur from what I can only assume are shallow bites.
 
I'm aware neutering does nothing for their dominance stuff, but I intend to work as a vet, and currently work in the grooming salon of a petco, so I don't want to accidentally bring home sow-smell and have it agitate them (or any other similar smells, to be frank)

Honestly the only one that fights is Ren. The others accept Ren and Qrow as dominant and never quibble... At this point it may just be easiest to rehome Ren...

There is no excessive scratching that might indicate mites, I'm fairly certain there's just been a lot of nipping. Especially as there are no other bald spots (this one is roughly 2 cm across and almost perfectly round, just off to the right of his spine) and there are many small lumps under the fur from what I can only assume are shallow bites.

Please be aware that neutered boars still react to sow scent. I've currently got six myself, so I should know! Washing your hands thoroughly and changing your clothes when you come home is much more effective. ;)

I would still consider mange mites or fungal - the discomfort/pain in the skin can lead to self-mutilation. Those little bumps you can feel in the skin could well be mange mite eggs. Mange mites are not always characterised by scratching. The concentration in one spot argues strongly for that. If it was bites by other boars, you'd usually find them all over the rump.
If you want to become a decent vet, the first thing is always to very carefully close out any medical angle and not just dismiss it out of hand! That bald patch needs investigation!

The second thing is to find out how the species you are dealing with is functioning, so you can work with their instincts and not against them. Empathy, understanding and good bedside manners not just towards the owner, but especially with any pet you are seeing together with a thoroughness in considering all possible aspects are making all the difference between a good and a bad vet. I've seen either over the years, and I'd choose a general vet who cares for my pet anytime over a specialist who doesn't!

And thirdly, please be aware that you need to find a good vet for any neutering operation to minimise the risk of post-op complications or even fatalities. Ideally you see a general vet that is really experienced in guinea pig neutering or an exotics vet with lots of practice in small furries operations. I am not saying this to criticise you but because we sadly still have to pick up the pieces far too often on this forum when a newly neutered boar has a bad reaction to the GA or develops abscesses etc... It is always a very upsetting and often heart-breaking time for any loving owner.

Do you think that getting rid of Ren is really the right thing? After all, it is not his fault that he has been put into a situation where he feels he has to defend his leadership; he has been put in that situation by you.
If you want to take Ren out, then please have him neutered, so he can safely live with a sow after his 6 weeks post-op wait. That time is indeed necessary to absolutely prevent any pregnancies. The little baby in my avatar is the legacy of a supposedly safe over 5 weeks post-op boar (not one of mine!), just to prove that particular point. It can really happen as late as that, and my Tegan is not the only one.

Please do not fail Ren again by condemning him to a single life like those pet shops that have not the first idea of what makes the pets tick that they sell when they get a 'fighter' dumped back on them! Guinea pigs are group animals and not wired to live on their own, but any successful bond needs to be based on character compatibility and mutual liking, not on cute looks or being related. A shop cannot do that; that is why boars have such a hard time.

That said, a quartet is still the most unstable of all boar groupings. Unfortunately, when bonding guinea pigs, you always need to a have a plan B in case things don't work out the way you want them to.
 
I've actually been looking for good vets. Unfortunately, where I live there are very few vets who work with small animals. I contacted one who said they had small animal experience on their website, but they refused to contact me back when I asked if they handled guinea pigs. So I'm still looking and asking for recommendations.

I do know that the shelter I will be taking Ren to (a locally famous no-kill shelter) will not just dump him on an owner who doesn't know what they're doing. I worked for them for 2 years in college. They will try to find him a partner from local rescues. The fact simply is, if I try to divide the cage to accommodate 2 groups, one will always be short on space. As there are no local rescues for piggies and I would never return an animal to the store (they shove 3 pigs in a glass box that's MAYBE 1'x3' with one hide, one bowl, and one badly positioned water bottle and they use the wrong bedding types half the time), so I did have a secondary plan... unfortunately it was finding a new home for one of the pigs if a problem happened.

The truth of the matter is, Ren starts all the fights, and if I remove Qrow he starts fights with the 3 boys who have absolutely no dominance and have no interest in being dominant (they all 3 always submit when anyone is doing anything, maybe just running away if anything) and while I'm sure it's not a problem with HIM personally... everything I've tried in terms of reintroducing him to Qrow, or making the two of them try to get along, has worked for maybe a week, then he starts to fight again.

I will find a good vet to look at everyone when I can however. Being stateside where vets aren't super prolific or very good usually does some damage to my chances... Being near a farming area does more. Most of the vets here haven't seen anything more exotic than the fancy goat breeds some folks get as pets or smaller than a cat.

When I had pigs before (over a decade now) there was a nice small-animal vet not super far from where I live... but he retired before my second piggie died. (I kept 2, 1 at a time... I didn't know that the boar thing was a myth and they almost never sell females here... In fact it's only in the last 3 years I've seen females for sale in stores).
 
I've actually been looking for good vets. Unfortunately, where I live there are very few vets who work with small animals. I contacted one who said they had small animal experience on their website, but they refused to contact me back when I asked if they handled guinea pigs. So I'm still looking and asking for recommendations.

I do know that the shelter I will be taking Ren to (a locally famous no-kill shelter) will not just dump him on an owner who doesn't know what they're doing. I worked for them for 2 years in college. They will try to find him a partner from local rescues. The fact simply is, if I try to divide the cage to accommodate 2 groups, one will always be short on space. As there are no local rescues for piggies and I would never return an animal to the store (they shove 3 pigs in a glass box that's MAYBE 1'x3' with one hide, one bowl, and one badly positioned water bottle and they use the wrong bedding types half the time), so I did have a secondary plan... unfortunately it was finding a new home for one of the pigs if a problem happened.

The truth of the matter is, Ren starts all the fights, and if I remove Qrow he starts fights with the 3 boys who have absolutely no dominance and have no interest in being dominant (they all 3 always submit when anyone is doing anything, maybe just running away if anything) and while I'm sure it's not a problem with HIM personally... everything I've tried in terms of reintroducing him to Qrow, or making the two of them try to get along, has worked for maybe a week, then he starts to fight again.

I will find a good vet to look at everyone when I can however. Being stateside where vets aren't super prolific or very good usually does some damage to my chances... Being near a farming area does more. Most of the vets here haven't seen anything more exotic than the fancy goat breeds some folks get as pets or smaller than a cat.

When I had pigs before (over a decade now) there was a nice small-animal vet not super far from where I live... but he retired before my second piggie died. (I kept 2, 1 at a time... I didn't know that the boar thing was a myth and they almost never sell females here... In fact it's only in the last 3 years I've seen females for sale in stores).

Thank you for clarifying these points! It is one of our duties to make as sure as we can that any piggies passing through our forum are always only in safe hands and that if they leave their current owners' hands, they only go into safe and experienced hands.

We all wish that there were more piggy savvy small furries vets! I hope that you can realise your plans and help many guinea pigs in the future.

We have got lots of guides at the top of our various Care sections, which you may find helpful, but you are welcome to ask any questions you may have. Pet ownership is a life long learning curve we are all on.
Guinea pigs have a far more complex social life and a far more differentiated communication that previously assumed. Because they have been classed as harmless "children's pets", they have been overlooked in many ways for a long time, and only very recently have started to become the focus of more research. Being social animals doesn't mean that every piggy gets on with every other one - far from it. They are every bit as picky as humans, when you come down to it.
 
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