Fighting piggles

[Bert&Ernie2021]

Hi All,

I’m new to this forum and am seeking some advice.
I have 2 piggle boys, Bert and Ernie, I got them at the end of November last year and it was estimated they were around 10-12 weeks old. I purchased them from pets at home so they had been housed together with about 2-3 other male piggles. Now I know that just because they were housed together for a few weeks in pets at home it doesn’t necessarily mean they would be compatible, however when we brought them home for about 2 months everything was fine, we then had a 2 day period about the beginning of feb when the dominance stage kicked in and there were a few nips that Bert caused to Ernie on his back end that did shed a little blood, I went back to pets at home for advice and they gave me a calming spray to use in the cage and advised a clean their sweat glands so there wasn’t a build up of scent there, this appeared to work for about a month then about a week and a half ago things escalated, and Ernie ended up with more scratches and bites (blood drawn) on his back end (luckily none on his face, ears or mouth) and Bert eventually got him on his back so I’ve had to separate them.
The weird thing is, they are obsessed with each other still, when Ernie is out for floor time he is constantly hovering around the cage and laying down near it and vice versa with Bert when he is out and Ernie is in, it’s almost like they miss each other.
Now I should mention that Bert clearly seems to be the dominant but Ernie just will not fully submit, Ernie has never attacked or bitten back at Bert but he was non stop rumblestrutting when Bert was near him when they were together.
Is the the end of the road for their relationship for ever? Or when they’re through this very hormonal teenage stage in a few months to a year will there be a chance of re-bonding? At the end of the day I just want them to be happy.

Thank you in advance

 

[Piggies&buns]

I’m sorry to hear this.

When they hit their teens from around 4 months of age things can really change between pet shop piggies. Six months is the time of highest hormone output and the point at which a bond will hit make or break.

As fights and injuries have occurred it is sadly the end of them and separating them is the right thing to do. Things will sadly not change just because they get out of their teens - they don’t have compatibility and they are not likely to suddenly get it.

Boars: Teenage, Bullying, Fighting, Fall-outs And What Next?
A Comprehensive Guide to Guinea Pig Boars

 

[Stewybus]

In view of you buying them from P@H which cage did they sell you. They notoriously sell the Ferplast 100 which isn't suitable for guinea pigs. As the get bigger they need at least a 120 x 60 cage with mod doing to the hidey that cones with the cage ie cut the steps off so that there are 2 doorways.

Other things to do when fighting occurs is take any houses or igloos out and add two piles of hay. Even if minor blood has been drawn you could rescue the situation

 

[Bert&Ernie2021]

In view of you buying them from P@H which cage did they sell you. They notoriously sell the Ferplast 100 which isn't suitable for guinea pigs. As the get bigger they need at least a 120 x 60 cage with mod doing to the hidey that cones with the cage ie cut the steps off so that there are 2 doorways.

Other things to do when fighting occurs is take any houses or igloos out and add two piles of hay. Even if minor blood has been drawn you could rescue the situation

I bought the 120 not the 100 as I felt the 100 was too small and after their first spat back at the beginning of February I removed the hidey completely and have 2 of the large wood arches which I placed at opposite ends of the cage with access in the front and the back so neither one could trap the other. On Friday I ordered a c&c 4x2 cage but this hasn’t come yet, I’m hoping it comes soon. The wounds on Ernie are superficial in respect to them not being too deep and they are all scabbed over now and healing but I just don’t want him to become depressed because he is constantly being attacked and is always sore if that makes sense?

 

[Bert&Ernie2021]

I’m sorry to hear this.

When they hit their teens from around 4 months of age things can really change between pet shop piggies. Six months is the time of highest hormone output and the point at which a bond will hit make or break.

As fights and injuries have occurred it is sadly the end of them and separating them is the right thing to do. Things will sadly not change just because they get out of their teens - they don’t have compatibility and they are not likely to suddenly get it.

Boars: Teenage, Bullying, Fighting, Fall-outs And What Next?
A Comprehensive Guide to Guinea Pig Boars

Thank you for your advice.

I’m curious why it is specific to pet shop piggles? I know some of them are genuine siblings if they are bought from breeders but it can’t always be the case when you get them from other places, so why pet shop ones specifically?

 

[Bill & Ted]

I really do not think you should try to rebond them again. next time it could be more serious. You could have them living side by side instead and possibly think of neutering and getting them both a female after a six week post op period. Good luck, I can see you are trying to do the very best for them

 

[Bert&Ernie2021]

I really do not think you should try to rebond them again. next time it could be more serious. You could have them living side by side instead and possibly think of neutering and getting them both a female after a six week post op period. Good luck, I can see you are trying to do the very best for them

I did think this, I thought maybe in a few months I could attempt it but I’m guessing from most of the stuff I’ve read and these few replies it’s not the best idea. I’m going to have them live side by side in the new cage with a divider, it’s a 4x2 and depending on how it fits in the space I have got I will attempt to make it a 5x2 but I have to wait and see how it fits first. I know this makes their areas slightly smaller but they get a lot of floor time, about 4-5 hours every evening in the week and at weekends even more and they have complete free run of the kitchen and front room when they have floor time, not just a pen.

 

[Wiebke]

Thank you for your advice.

I’m curious why it is specific to pet shop piggles? I know some of them are genuine siblings if they are bought from breeders but it can’t always be the case when you get them from other places, so why pet shop ones specifically?

Hi and welcome

Please take the time to read the information links in thread. You will find them very helpful and informative.

The situation applies to both pet shops and for-sale breeders. Most people buy their babies for looks, not for who they hang out with most since key to any happy long term bond is mutual liking and character compatibility. It is also a myth that brothers do not fall out - two dominant boys will clash when they reach the teenage hormone spikes, irrespective of whether they are related or not.
Rescues (Adoption and Dating), Shops, Breeders or Online? - What to consider when getting guinea pigs (deals with common pitfalls for new owners and how to best navigate them)
A Comprehensive Guide to Guinea Pig Boars (the first chapter deals with common myths and misconceptions)

Most buyers also grossly underestimate the space needs for guinea pigs; especially boars.
Cage Size Guide (these are just the minimal guidelines)

Unfortunately, once boars have had a serious fights, then they are clearly not a character match and will not get on as pair in the future.
Our teenage boar guide also gives you practical companionship solutions for the thereafter, as does the boar guide.
Boars: Teenage, Bullying, Fighting, Fall-outs And What Next?
A - Z of Guinea Pig Behaviours

You may find our very practical information collection helpful and may want to bookmark and have a browse/read through it; 15 years of forum experience and up to 50 years of ownership experience have gone into our guides on a very wide range of subjects: Comprehensive Owners' Practical and Supportive Information Collection

Unfortunately, your current cage will house just a single boy. There is sadly so much bad and incorrect information out there; that is the problem for any new owner who cannot judge the quality of what they are being told.

 

[Piggies&buns]

I did think this, I thought maybe in a few months I could attempt it but I’m guessing from most of the stuff I’ve read and these few replies it’s not the best idea. I’m going to have them live side by side in the new cage with a divider, it’s a 4x2 and depending on how it fits in the space I have got I will attempt to make it a 5x2 but I have to wait and see how it fits first. I know this makes their areas slightly smaller but they get a lot of floor time, about 4-5 hours every evening in the week and at weekends even more and they have complete free run of the kitchen and front room when they have floor time, not just a pen.

Thank you for your advice.

I’m curious why it is specific to pet shop piggles? I know some of them are genuine siblings if they are bought from breeders but it can’t always be the case when you get them from other places, so why pet shop ones specifically?

I bought the 120 not the 100 as I felt the 100 was too small and after their first spat back at the beginning of February I removed the hidey completely and have 2 of the large wood arches which I placed at opposite ends of the cage with access in the front and the back so neither one could trap the other. On Friday I ordered a c&c 4x2 cage but this hasn’t come yet, I’m hoping it comes soon. The wounds on Ernie are superficial in respect to them not being too deep and they are all scabbed over now and healing but I just don’t want him to become depressed because he is constantly being attacked and is always sore if that makes sense?

Two piggies must have character compatibility to be able to form a bond and often with pet shops or breeder piggies, they are just put together for sale, or purchased based on looks, and their character compatibility it not ensured first - hence fall outs can happen once their become teenagers. Even siblings need character compatibility and are just as likely to fall out as two piggies who are not related.

Sadly a 120 is too small for boys, they need a 180 to have enough space (there are no commercial cages which meet this sizing), and lack of space can be a real issue for boars who are more territorial. Also, a 4x2 is also not quite big enough for two boys to live in even if their bond was in tact and they could remain together. Boys need a 5x2 to live in together.

Unfortunately as mentioned, a fight is bond breaking and they will need to live apart but it also means the c&c cage you have on order isn’t big enough now. You really need each piggy to have their own 4x2 cage, but a 3x2 each at a minimum. (A 4x2 and even a 5x2 is too small to split in half).

Now they are separate, each cage needs to cover a minimum of 8 square feet for welfare purposes, so each cage needs to be a minimum of a 3x2 to meet those requirements. Floor time doesn’t count I’m afraid, their cage needs to meet sizing for any time they are locked into it.
Neither a 4x2 or 5x2 split in half meet that minimum (they come in at just over 5 and 7 square feet respectively)

I did think this, I thought maybe in a few months I could attempt it but I’m guessing from most of the stuff I’ve read and these few replies it’s not the best idea. I’m going to have them live side by side in the new cage with a divider, it’s a 4x2 and depending on how it fits in the space I have got I will attempt to make it a 5x2 but I have to wait and see how it fits first. I know this makes their areas slightly smaller but they get a lot of floor time, about 4-5 hours every evening in the week and at weekends even more and they have complete free run of the kitchen and front room when they have floor time, not just a pen.

Living side by side is perfectly fine for you to do, and is a common course of long term action following a fall out.

As Bill & Ted has said, you could neuter them both, have the six week post op wait and then bond each piggy with their own sow (ideally via a rescue centre so you could ensure they had compatibility before committing to two more piggie). Each boar/sow pair would need their own 4x2 cage to live in (a boar/sow pair doesn’t need as much space as a boar/boar pair) but their cages would then be able to be stacked (which is a good thing about c&c) one on top of the other (they don’t need side by side interaction given they would each have their own live in partner) which saves floor space if you only have floor space for a 4x2.

 

[Bert&Ernie2021]

Two piggies must have character compatibility to be able to form a bond and often with pet shops or breeder piggies, they are just put together for sale, or purchased based on looks, and their character compatibility it not ensured first - hence fall outs can happen once their become teenagers. Even siblings need character compatibility and are just as likely to fall out as two piggies who are not related.

Sadly a 120 is too small for boys, they need a 180 to have enough space (there are no commercial cages which meet this sizing), and lack of space can be a real issue for boars who are more territorial. Also, a 4x2 is also not quite big enough for two boys to live in even if their bond was in tact and they could remain together. Boys need a 5x2 to live in together.

Unfortunately as mentioned, a fight is bond breaking and they will need to live apart but it also means the c&c cage you have on order isn’t big enough now. You really need each piggy to have their own 4x2 cage, but a 3x2 each at a minimum. (A 4x2 and even a 5x2 is too small to split in half).

Now they are separate, each cage needs to cover a minimum of 8 square feet for welfare purposes, so each cage needs to be a minimum of a 3x2 to meet those requirements. Floor time doesn’t count I’m afraid, their cage needs to meet sizing for any time they are locked into it.
Neither a 4x2 or 5x2 split in half meet that minimum (they come in at just over 5 and 7 square feet respectively)



Living side by side is perfectly fine for you to do, and is a common course of long term action following a fall out.

As Bill & Ted has said, you could neuter them both, have the six week post op wait and then bond each piggy with their own sow (ideally via a rescue centre so you could ensure they had compatibility before committing to two more piggie). Each boar/sow pair would need their own 4x2 cage to live in (a boar/sow pair doesn’t need as much space as a boar/boar pair) but their cages would then be able to be stacked (which is a good thing about c&c) one on top of the other (they don’t need side by side interaction given they would each have their own live in partner) which saves floor space if you only have floor space for a 4x2.

Thank you, I will order another 4x2 today and stack it on top, I have to admit though, the idea of neutering really worries me. I follow a few guinea pig pages and so many peoples boys have died after having that op and it’s really put me off the idea if I’m being honest .

 

[Piggies&buns]

Thank you, I will order another 4x2 today and stack it on top, I have to admit though, the idea of neutering really worries me. I follow a few guinea pig pages and so many peoples boys have died after having that op and it’s really put me off the idea if I’m being honest .

You cannot stack on top while they are single. While they are single the cages must be side by side so they don’t get lonely and can still interact through the bars - you can only stack cages if they have another piggy living in the cage with them

Neutering is a safe operation in the hands of an experienced vet. People are more likely to report bad outcomes than they would positive outcomes. There are so many successfully neutered boars on the forum.
I regret not getting my boys done while they were younger as now when one passes I’m only left with the option if find another boar instead of being able to get the one left behind a sow. I’m very used to neutering and spaying as I have rabbits so neutering surgery is essential so I don’t know why I didn’t do the piggies really!

 

[poggle]

If you're anxious, stay away from the internet! Pages like that gather horror stories and misery because the people who've had good outcomes don't need to vent or warn others.

I can only speak to my experience, but I will likely be neutering any future boars joining my family. Three of five of my boars were neutered, and of the two which had the op under my care both were back to their usual selves in no time, if a bit groggy. They went on to lead happy lives living the boar dream, surrounded by wifelets. They did have the less invasive version of the procedure - I believe there are many rescues in the UK who routinely neuter their boars using this method and have hundreds of success stories as a result.

There will always be an inherent risk to anaesthetic - just as there is with dogs, cats, and humans - but an otherwise healthy pig going in for a routine, minimally invasive operation by an experienced vet has excellent odds of pulling through. Another member posted a lovely, long explanation going into anaesthetic success rates recently but I cannot for the life of me find it to link here. Can anyone remember this post and where to find it?