Female constantly rumble strutting and the other complaining. All. The. Time.

Basti & Dulce

Basti & Dulce

New Born Pup
Joined
May 15, 2020
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Location
Brazil
Hello,

I'm new to TGPF and been reading a lot of threads and pinned posts to find out about my situation, but with no luck, exactly.

We (me and my wife) have two females (both are 1 year and 5 months old) and, for a long time (some months ago) until this day, there's this one female (Basti) that keeps rumble strutting and swaying near the other (Dulce), all the time. Every day. All day long. For weeks, months. Is this normal behavior?
Because I've read that this "is completely normal sow behavior when they are in season or to show dominance", but...is Basti always in season (no, she has no ovarian cysts)? Or is she always trying to show dominance towards the other?
I'm a little bit worried because it goes like this, all the time: Basti rumble strutting and swaying, and Dulce doing complaint noises. A lot of times Dulce sprays urine over the other, I believe in some kind of defense, I don't know.
I think it's important to say, though, that they never ever engaged in fighting, just some mounting tries every now and then, but this is not so common.

The main thing is that I keep thinking that Dulce is so annoyed about her cage mate, I know I'd surely would be.
Is there anything I can do? I just want some peace of mind that they like each other, they get along ok and everything is fine, or to sort this out, somehow.

Cage is 150cm x 120cm, with an upper level of 120cm x 30cm (where food and water is located). They have hideouts and everything seems to be supplied just fine. Both are very skittish and afraid of us, humans (a couple), that cares for them.

Any help is much appreciated. Thanks in advance.
 
Has a vet actually ruled out cysts?

Dominance while they are season is normal, and that will be for a few days every couple of weeks.
A problem can come if there is an underlying issue in their relationship and it turns into bullying.

is Dulce allowed to eat and rest? Is she putting on weight properly?
Bonds In Trouble
 
I have 2 males and one does this like yours ALL THE TIME.....I got zoomie to keep gizmo company, but all gizmo does is rumblestrutt and squeak nearly all the time.
He even does it when he's on his own and zoomie is not even near him.
I thought he would do it for a bit to show zoomie he is the dominant pig and it would settle down by now but it hasn't and poor zoomie just squals in submission and runs away.they never fight but I have seen zoomie try to nip gizmo when he gets fed up with him or gizmo tries to turf him out of his bed.
I would hate to think that either pig is unhappy but I'm not really sure what if anything I should do about it.
 
Piggies&buns said:
Has a vet actually ruled out cysts?

Dominance while they are season is normal, and that will be for a few days every couple of weeks.
A problem can come if there is an underlying issue in their relationship and it turns into bullying.

is Dulce allowed to eat and rest? Is she putting on weight properly?
Bonds In Trouble
Click to expand...
An updated visit to the vet, during this pandemic, is turning out to be very difficult. However, from the appearance and lack of symptoms (apart from that behavior), she is perfectly fine, but I can't tell precisely as of now.

About Dulce, that's exactly the problem why I couldn't find an answer to my situation: they don't fight, ever. At all. Dulce is allowed to eat, rest, puts on weight normally and properly...but because of the constant rumble strutting and Dulce emitting complaint noises, it started to puzzle me about their relationship, their health and things like that. But to every "suggestion" of what could be - found here and in other sites - there's always something that doesn't fit and it seems like they are "somewhat in the middle", I don't know if I'm making myself clear.

I've seen videos here, a lot of videos of failed bonding, change of behavior and good bonding, and they didn't fit any of those. Failed bonding usually depicts some very agressive responses, biting, chasing, bullying, fighting, etc. This doesn't happen between Dulce and Basti, at all.
A good bonding, however, shows some mutual grooming, sleeping together and stuff like that, which they also don't do.

It's only this rumble strutting constantly and the other one, while this is happening, doing some complaint noises. But there are, during the whole day, times of peace, times when they both are sleeping ok, eating and etc.

Piggieweekweek said:
I have 2 males and one does this like yours ALL THE TIME.....I got zoomie to keep gizmo company, but all gizmo does is rumblestrutt and squeak nearly all the time.
He even does it when he's on his own and zoomie is not even near him.
I thought he would do it for a bit to show zoomie he is the dominant pig and it would settle down by now but it hasn't and poor zoomie just squals in submission and runs away.they never fight but I have seen zoomie try to nip gizmo when he gets fed up with him or gizmo tries to turf him out of his bed.
I would hate to think that either pig is unhappy but I'm not really sure what if anything I should do about it.
Click to expand...

"He even does it when he's on his own and zoomie is not even near him." - this happens too, Basti does that. It's not very common, but has happened.
The nipping or turfing doesn't happen, though.

"I would hate to think that either pig is unhappy but I'm not really sure what if anything I should do about it." - that's my main issue! This is what is puzzling me.

Should I try separating them for a while? If so, for how long?
Should I try a bath to rule out the pheromones?

Something that I may be doing wrong is that they feed from the same only source and have only one big water supply, but, like I said, this seems to be no problem since both of them have access to it just fine. The intake of water, food and hay is perfectly fine.
 
Bathing is not recommended.

A good bonding does not always include grooming and sleeping together. Mine are in a good relationship and absolutely do not do either of those things.

You are much less likely to see full on fights between sows, it happens, but their fall outs don’t always result in such bloody fights you see in boars.

The complaint noises - is it like a high pitched squeak? If so, that isn’t necessarily complaint, it may be submission which is exactly the type of noise you need to hear. As long as the submissive piggy is submitting to the dominant, then their relationship is fine. Obviously we can’t see what is going on and how relentless the rumbling is, but I would say that rumbling is a very mild dominance and without other signs of bullying or warning signs, then I would not say there is a problem.
 

This is the EXACT noise Dulce does. It always sounded like a complaint to me. I looked up on it and just confirmed it. But the sound, even when I didn't know what it was, sounded like a complaning. Even because of the way things are when she does the sound. The whole scenario already makes the sound seems like a complaint.
 
That’s fine - we are obviously not in a position to hear the sound she is making, but submission squeaking can often be confused with a distressed sound and some members don’t know about submission squeaking, hence why we mention it.
If you think there are tensions, then do a trial separation. During such a separation, if the under pig perks up when away, then it is a dysfunctional bond and underlying tensions.
 
But for how long should I keep them separated? I read that this can't be too much time, but I don't know what "too much" means. Some minutes? Hours? A day?
And by perking you mean popcorning or something like that?

"dysfunctional bond and underlying tensions" - this is what I fear the most, because they only have each other. :(((
 
I think a couple of days are enough. If you do separate then watch how the underpig is behaving.
 
Ok, thank you. I'm still keeping them together, since this "annoyance" does not threaten the other too much. As I said, she's still able to sleep, eat, rest, roam around, do everything. Today, I managed to pay a visit to the vet and we're gonna check them both with some image exams and everything. Apart from the results to come, they're completely fine. Teeth, fur, ears, weight, everything perfect.

So, I think I'm gonna wait for the results to come and know for sure what may be causing this. : )
 
UPDATED STATUS - we still need help:

So, after Dulce's surgery to remove the lump, recovery was fine, but she was separated from Bastiana for a while, for obvious reasons. After she seemed a little bit better and healthy again (a week, approx.), we started to put them together in the cage...and things are not going well. They were purring a lot at each other and, for the first time, they engaged in a real, vigorous fight. We separated them again for a couple more days. After the fight, tho', while separated, they still can see each other through the fence (it's a C&C cage) and both keep biting the fence like "I wanna go to the other side", like they miss each other. They engage in this behavior for a while and, after some time, they settle and that's all. When settled, they tend to lay one close to the other for hours, being separated. Seems like two friends that want to get along.
However, we did try putting them together again and the teeth chattering begins, the deep purring and, guess what, another huge fight.
So, my question is: is there any chance or way we can introduce both of them together again? Like in "mild doses", putting them together only for a while, for several times, before any fights occur again?
Or is the bond broken and there's nothing more we can do about it?

As mentioned in other posts, both of them have just visited the vet, no cysts were detected, health is just fine. Is there any hope? : (
 
I’m afraid it seems they probably made their minds up that they don’t like each other any longer. The bar biting to get to each other is confusing but what isn’t is their behaviour when you put them together.

I wouldn’t advise that you try again if they’re being like that. Sows don’t usually fight outright like boars but when they’ve decided they’ve decided. Also, the laying next to each other either side of the divide is actually a type of ‘dominance lie in’. They’re doing it to display their dominance rather than missing each other.

Sorry it didn’t work out.
 
Basti & Dulce said:
UPDATED STATUS - we still need help:

So, after Dulce's surgery to remove the lump, recovery was fine, but she was separated from Bastiana for a while, for obvious reasons. After she seemed a little bit better and healthy again (a week, approx.), we started to put them together in the cage...and things are not going well. They were purring a lot at each other and, for the first time, they engaged in a real, vigorous fight. We separated them again for a couple more days. After the fight, tho', while separated, they still can see each other through the fence (it's a C&C cage) and both keep biting the fence like "I wanna go to the other side", like they miss each other. They engage in this behavior for a while and, after some time, they settle and that's all. When settled, they tend to lay one close to the other for hours, being separated. Seems like two friends that want to get along.
However, we did try putting them together again and the teeth chattering begins, the deep purring and, guess what, another huge fight.
So, my question is: is there any chance or way we can introduce both of them together again? Like in "mild doses", putting them together only for a while, for several times, before any fights occur again?
Or is the bond broken and there's nothing more we can do about it?

As mentioned in other posts, both of them have just visited the vet, no cysts were detected, health is just fine. Is there any hope? : (
Click to expand...

If a fight has occurred, then I’m afraid it’s over for them and their bond is broken.
I hadn’t known until recently either but siikibam is right - laying together each side of the divide is not a good sign. It’s territory marking and does not mean they want to be together.
 
PS don’t give them any time together at all now. Even small doses can result in them going for each other. And it’s stressful for them as well.
 
:agr: Sows can certainly make their minds up that they will not tolerate each other and won’t live together again. If they’ve had a fight then please do not put them together again, as it just won’t work. They have told you clearly they don’t want to live together.
Please don’t be fooled by the bar biting and laying alongside the barrier. This is simply each sow exerting their dominance and marking their territory - a bit like saying to the other don’t you dare come near here - I am guarding this space as my own.
I am sorry that this wasn’t what you wanted to hear. But the piggies have spoken.
 
So sorry to hear all these replies. Yeah, this wasn't what I wanted to hear, but guess we'll just have to live with it, right now.
Could it be that this time apart from each other was the cause? Or, at least, was the culprit to something that was going to happen anyway?
Now, we're gonna have to figure out how to rearrange the cage, so that both of them have the same space and everything... :(((

Damn, so sad this kind of thing happens. But thanks for all the replies, thank you for all the info and support.
 
I thought I would input.
I have four girls, Luna, Trixie, Bandit, Nutmeg.
There is always rumbling. Mostly Luna and Bandit, because they are biggest and very stubborn, and then always complaining from the other two. They all love each other, with the exception of Trix and Meg as they are too keen on each other. They groom each other and eat together.
Same with Daisy and Hazel, always rumbling at each other, but best friends.
You get used to it. Sometimes I say their names to attempt to make them stop, but it doesn't do much.

Just read the fight bit...Don't put them together.
 
Basti & Dulce said:
So sorry to hear all these replies. Yeah, this wasn't what I wanted to hear, but guess we'll just have to live with it, right now.
Could it be that this time apart from each other was the cause? Or, at least, was the culprit to something that was going to happen anyway?
Now, we're gonna have to figure out how to rearrange the cage, so that both of them have the same space and everything... :(((

Damn, so sad this kind of thing happens. But thanks for all the replies, thank you for all the info and support.
Click to expand...

It is hard to tell without knowing your piggies. It could be a deep seated grudge that has come to the surface, it could simply be a case of just about being able to tolerate each other when they had no choice but time apart has shown them that they really don’t want to be together. It is hard to tell.
I once had a pair of well bonded sows who went to the vets together while one had an op so that the other could be her companion. All good. Operation fine. Sows stayed together. They came home together at 5pm. Had tea together, no problem. At 11pm I found the non operated sow viciously attacking the other recuperating sow who was fleeing her attack. Had to separate them that night and despite every attempt to rebond them the attacker (Molly) just was not having Mabel back again. I still don’t understand what happened but I now know first hand how quickly things can change with sows.
 
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