Failed introduction/bonding

[Guinea pig slave]

Today we felt it was time to introduce little Sally to our herd where Amelia is 'top piggy'. All carefully planned and the girls pens were scrubbed, rearranged, fitted out with lovely new vet bed, everything washed and added the new snugglepad covers made by the wonderful Pollie so everything was neutral :rose
The first 10-15 minutes went like a dream, Sally and the girls were doing fine - no rumbling/chattering etc. popcorning like mad allowing Amelia to groom her face then Sally began to her chatter teeth We were watching them like hawks and I had a towel ready in case of any serious bickering but it settled down for around another 10 minutes.
Sally suddenly attacked Amelia and they locked together so I intervened and split them, again they went off and had a good sniff around but sadly, it happened again so that was enough as it was distressing the other girls as well as us :0 We've had to put little Sally back on her own in the pen next door separated by grids
It took a long time for Amelia to calm down as she was nipping at her buddies and spoiling for a fight with any one of them, she even pulled tufts of hair from one piggy and nipped my OH's hand - I really thought we had broken the wonderful harmony these girls have shared for many months and felt physically sick, hating myself for putting them through this but after almost an hour, everything returned to normal. My nerves are in tatters tbh :red and they've all had lots of cuddles and treats (all snuggled up as usual the little monkey's) xx>>>

So the issue now is Sally remains alone 8...
Possible route now would be to sow date at a rescue so she can choose her own buddy...male or female ?

Sorry this is long but we want what is best for all of our piggies and have space for one more little furry for her to share her life with

 

[herriotfan]

How distressing for you.
I wonder if Sally might settle better with a neutered boar?
Probably a good idea to do as you suggest and take her dating to find her own friend. Good luck.

 

[Poppy'sMum]

Oh no I am sorry big ((hugs))

Could she be bonded with the other piggies, Bruce & Sheila (I think they're called - forgive me if I'm wrong!)

 

[x-vic-x]

When I introduce piggies I wouldn't have used the girls pen at all, regardless of it being cleaned it's still there's. Bathroom or kitchen floors are ideal. I don't put anything in other than a big tray of hay and a few tunnels. No houses, beds or anything. Generally I put a big bowl of veg in the middle and leave them too it.

I watch carefully, intervening if they start rubbling at each other, just a distraction, I don't separate them. Normally I put something in between them, or make a noise. It's very rare they instantly get on perfectly.

Sally arrived in a group of 5 females, and has had run time with a neutered male so, plus the girls she came in with, so I am shocked it hasn't worked

 

[Guinea pigs <3]

I also agree with what Vicky said, I wouldn't give up just yet! Definitely try them again but out of the cage! Even though you scrubbed it, it is still their territory. Mabel and Fin were fine on their first meeting but once I put them in the cage it was chaos! I had to work up to that slowly over many bonding sessions! rolleyes

I suggest as Vic says, a large ish space with no beds/tunnels etc (Mabel classed these as her territory and it caused fights) with veggies scattered around and three piles of hay spread apart. Have a dustpan to hand and if it starts to get heated you can use it as a distraction/block if it gets really bad! Mabel lunged for Fin and they had a good role around a few times but over the bonding sessions it calmed down as they sorted out their hierarchy. Once they were ok in the pen together I then started to add beds and toys, it did re-start the dominance all over again but they quickly sorted it out!

Hope that helps and I know what you mean about your nerves! Bonding piggies can be quite hair raising at times! :{mallethead

 

[Guinea pig slave]

When I introduce piggies I wouldn't have used the girls pen at all, regardless of it being cleaned it's still there's. Bathroom or kitchen floors are ideal. I don't put anything in other than a big tray of hay and a few tunnels. No houses, beds or anything. Generally I put a big bowl of veg in the middle and leave them too it.

I watch carefully, intervening if they start rubbling at each other, just a distraction, I don't separate them. Normally I put something in between them, or make a noise. It's very rare they instantly get on perfectly.

Sally arrived in a group of 5 females, and has had run time with a neutered male so, plus the girls she came in with, so I am shocked it hasn't worked

With the pen being so large, this provided more space than our galley kitchen floor and bathroom put together (and it's far too cold) Sally has only lived in the grid separated 5ft section next to the herd since Tuesday as we thought the stress of moving her into such a big area and meeting other piggies in one day would certainly be too much for her. She's definitely a feisty little thing !
Only accessories in the pen were new hay buckets topped up and snugglepads, everything else was removed as we've done previously with all new piggies until bonding has been successful - I had to cover my hand with a towel to 'separate' Sally and Amelia, not remove her as it may have sounded, observed them again for a further 10-15 mins but again, Sally was upsetting Amelia so finally split them
Maybe as she's been on her own for a time in foster care, she may prefer being her own boss rolleyes
Sow dating seems the only option here for her

 

[milhaven]

I had a girl very similar, I tried just about every other girl with her at some point and she attacked every one of them. She just didn't want to know and she would just go straight in to grab lumps of hair. I then tried her with a neutered boar and she was a different pig, she was not at all bothered by him climbing all over him and they went on to have a lovely friendship.

This is just really to give you hope that there is a friend for everyone out there and maybe, if she doesn't bond with your girls after giving it time, you could always look at neutered boys. Some girls just prefer the company of boys!


By the way, I always bond piggies on neutral ground away from their cage, usually in an unfamiliar room. Sometimes it takes time for them to sort things out!

 

[x-vic-x]

I had a girl very similar, I tried just about every other girl with her at some point and she attacked every one of them. She just didn't want to know and she would just go straight in to grab lumps of hair. I then tried her with a neutered boar and she was a different pig, she was not at all bothered by him climbing all over him and they went on to have a lovely friendship.

This is just really to give you hope that there is a friend for everyone out there and maybe, if she doesn't bond with your girls after giving it time, you could always look at neutered boys. Some girls just prefer the company of boys!


By the way, I always bond piggies on neutral ground away from their cage, usually in an unfamiliar room. Sometimes it takes time for them to sort things out!

Sally is fine with other females, she lived with Elsie an older female when she was first split from the group so she could have company whilst we monitored her. She shared run time with 5 females and a neutered male, for months with no trouble at all. She then had shared floor time with Megan until she was rehomed. She has never been a dominant piggie I'm gutted for her.

 

[Wiebke]

Have you had the new girl next to your group for a few days, so she could have met and got used to her new friends and home? I prefer to do intros only after I get signs of friendly interest through the bars/grids. I also try to remove as many external stress factors like new home/surroundings etc. before an introduction as that can impinge on how quickly a piggy goes on overload.

The problem with introductions is not space but smell - guinea pigs have much finer noses than ours and they are very territory orientated. A bath with girls is not necessary (all it is good for is washing off the stink of an excess of testosterone in fallen out boars). I always use the space under the kitchen table for introductions, even though my piggies have the run of the whole living room during the day - the crucial point is that it is nobody's territory.

Give Amelia a few days to settle down again before you restage intros in a different space. Here are more tips: http://www.theguineapigforum.co.uk/forumdisplay.php?f=8

That said, not every girl will always work out in a group. But it is worth another try sometime later.

 

[becky86]

I agree with everyone else, you need to try them on neutral territory. I know you cleaned out the girls cage etc but putting Sally into their area was probably where its gone wrong. Sally is a lovely piggy, she used to live with another female when she first came in and i saw her several times at Vicky's with other piggies so we know shes does get on with other piggies. Give her a few weeks to calm down and try them again in a neutral area with a few pots of hay and a pile of veggies.

If it doesn't work with the herd, could you not try her with your other trio of girls before taking her piggy dating?

I'm sure it will all work out in the end

 

[Claire W]

I am sorry that things have turned out like this but as blood hasn't been drawn, I agree with Wiebke.

I once tried to introduce a boar in to my group of three girls and although I thought I was doing the right thing at the time and they seemed to get on, I now realised I made a BIG mistake It resulted in a bloody fight between one of my sows and the boar and the baby of the group at the time ended up with a small gash (she still has a slight scar). I tried again the next day but the damage had already been done and the sow in question locked horns with the boar. It resulted in me having to return the boar and feeling like a failure with bonding so much so that when I introduced my fourth girl, I had someone else do it for me. It was a very distressing and upsetting experience for all involved including the piggies 8...

I suppose what I am trying to say is try and not feel bad as it will get you nowhere xx

 

[Guinea pig slave]

Have you had the new girl next to your group for a few days, so she could have met and got used to her new friends and home? I prefer to do intros only after I get signs of friendly interest through the bars/grids. I also try to remove as many external stress factors like new home/surroundings etc. before an introduction as that can impinge on how quickly a piggy goes on overload.

The problem with introductions is not space but smell - guinea pigs have much finer noses than ours and they are very territory orientated. A bath with girls is not necessary (all it is good for is washing off the stink of an excess of testosterone in fallen out boars). I always use the space under the kitchen table for introductions, even though my piggies have the run of the whole living room during the day - the crucial point is that it is nobody's territory.

Give Amelia a few days to settle down again before you restage intros in a different space. Here are more tips: http://www.theguineapigforum.co.uk/forumdisplay.php?f=8

That said, not every girl will always work out in a group. But it is worth another try sometime later.

Sally has been living in the 5ft section of the main pen separated by grids so the girls have seen her, they've chatted at the grids and pinched each others hay etc. through the bars - OH purposely built another pen for our married piggies so she could be taken out of the quarantine cage, moved closer to the girls on Tuesday and hopefully integrated into the herd She was fine running around like a loon with the others, Amelia washing her face (she did this with all the piggies she has been introduced to) so hopes were high as she seemed happy to welcome the new girl on the block
Hate her being on her own although she appears happy enough, they have been chatting through the bars again this evening, think it has all been a big shock to us that things didn't work out as they were getting along sooo well. Frightening to see Amelia almost turn against her friends - had visions of having a few separated piggies for the first time :{
I am just thankful OH had built another permanent pen for Bruce and Sheila so Sally still has a lovely big home

 

[Sodapops]

oh no - when i saw the post Failed Bonding i never expected you to be the starter of the thread

As you know i tried bonding Wexford with several wives, but had to keep separating them, to be honest, I'm not sure if i over-reacted a little and often wonder what would have happened if i'#d just continued.

Wexford has now been living as a group of 6 now for around 3-4wks and I'm still on tender-hooks even now. Apart from JJ and her odd nip, they all get along pretty much as i hoped they would.

Honestly though - it takes nerves of steel and it's just so upsetting when things go wrong. As others have suggested though, maybe give them some time out for a few days and re-try.

I am keeping everything crossed for you x>>

 

[Salt n Peppers mum]

Just wanted to say hope everything works out for Sally, it can be so stressful when bonding doesnt go the way we intended - Good luck and hugs

 

[Jessie]

When I introduce piggies I wouldn't have used the girls pen at all, regardless of it being cleaned it's still there's. Bathroom or kitchen floors are ideal. I don't put anything in other than a big tray of hay and a few tunnels. No houses, beds or anything. Generally I put a big bowl of veg in the middle and leave them too it.

I watch carefully, intervening if they start rubbling at each other, just a distraction, I don't separate them. Normally I put something in between them, or make a noise. It's very rare they instantly get on perfectly.

Sally arrived in a group of 5 females, and has had run time with a neutered male so, plus the girls she came in with, so I am shocked it hasn't worked

Thank you for this wonderful idea! I will put a massive bowl of hay in the middle with loads off treats stashed inside!

 

[milhaven]

Sally is fine with other females, she lived with Elsie an older female when she was first split from the group so she could have company whilst we monitored her. She shared run time with 5 females and a neutered male, for months with no trouble at all. She then had shared floor time with Megan until she was rehomed. She has never been a dominant piggie I'm gutted for her.

I'm sorry, I didn't read all the posts and assumed that Sally wasn't bonding with other girls. My apologies.

 

[Guinea pig slave]

Just wanted to say hope everything works out for Sally, it can be so stressful when bonding doesnt go the way we intended - Good luck and hugs

She'll be fine - we love her very much but maybe it's not meant to be her living along with our herd Either way, she will stay next to the girls so they can still chatter every day. It's not a situation where it 'had' to work out or we'd have a problem with space etc. as we had planned in advance if things didn't work so she would still have a nice big space and room for a friend or two of her own
It has been emotional for me today I admit, feelings of failure but it's onwards and upwards now...and the piggies have loved being spoiled more than ever all evening :x
Silly mummy |)

 

[Guinea pigs <3]

Aww Trace, hope you're feeling better today! I know the feeling as I felt the same when it didn't initially work with Fin and the girls. Maybe little Sally can have the new tunnel you bought :x

Look forward to hearing about sow dating if you decide not to re-attempt the bonding! Hugs!

 

[Guinea pig slave]

Aww Trace, hope you're feeling better today! I know the feeling as I felt the same when it didn't initially work with Fin and the girls. Maybe little Sally can have the new tunnel you bought :x

Look forward to hearing about sow dating if you decide not to re-attempt the bonding! Hugs!

Thanks Lindsay - yes the tunnel is for Sally, she prefers the cosies stuffed with hay rather than her basket rolleyes
We have no plans to re attempt bonding as it was the aftermath of Amelia going for her buddies that freaked us out, she has never displayed this behaviour (the odd peck to keep them in order occasionally as they race around) but nothing is worth the risk of upsetting the ambience within the herd. Luckily, peace is restored but I was up until 2am this morning worrying and making sure they were all friends and settled
I think even if we tried them again on the floor etc. I'd still worry about Amelia going off on one again :{

 

[Wiebke]

Failed bondings are always totally gutting. But as blood hasn't been drawn, you still have got everything to play for if you take it slowly!

It took me well over 3 weeks to bond Tegyd, and that was about as borderline as they come! Bondings with the Tribe have taken anything from about 10 seconds with a youngster just moving in to bonding sessions that have taken more than one day on neutral ground, as with Ffwlbri and then again a bit later with her sister Tesni once baby Tegan had been weaned. This was the second attempt for both (the first one, a straight attempt with a direct move-in next door like you tried with Sally after some encouraging interaction, ended in collective teeth chattering within a quarter of an hour after Hywel had been hounding Ffwlbri and it got too much for her, so I aborted before things could blow up). Just to say that both Ffwlbri and Tesni had been living with a group of girls and a neutered boar at the rescue, too - but sometimes the shortcut just doesn't work out and you have to take the scenic route with all the trimmings. mallethead

When guinea pigs get really upset, they will turn against everybody, be it friend or foe. You always need to call it a day when you see things heading in that direction, ideally before they blow up so you can work past it without too many hard feelings once you are sure that everypig has calmed down and there are no longer any hostile interactions between the two piggies involved.

If necessary, you can do a series of supervised meetings on neutral ground - ideally for as long as the piggies can stand it without things getting out of hand. A big flat plate or two with hay or grass is always a good distraction - anything that is too big for one piggy to hog for itself. Refilling it is a good distraction, as is scattering some small pieces of veg and fruit when you notice tensions building up.

The one thing that I have learned from doing so many group intros is to take my time, have a plan B or even plan C in case plan A goes down the drain in a hurry, and to keep a very beady eye on tensions sometimes building up and boiling over within a couple of minutes - one wrong signal from either of the piggies involved can suffice. It helps the more body language you can read.

Each bonding is different and takes is own sweet time, but never, ever assume that things will go straight because you have taken every possible care and the new piggy has the right background - you just cherish those occasions when it actually does and you work your way through the others!