Erin’s ark and seed mixes

[Nyanzai]

Hi, I’m wondering what the general consensus is on Erin’s advice from Erin’s ark. She has a youtube channel, been keeping rabbits, guinea pigs, hamsters and gerbils for a long time and seems really knowledgeable BUT her advice doesn’t quite match the general consensus of this forum. For one, she doesn’t tend to give pellets and instead gives a seed blend. Everyone on here says to avoid seeds completely but Erin points out that the piggies in the wild would eat plenty of seed heads from plants in seed. Even pet piggies eat the seed heads of rye grass or timothy hay so is it more the chance of choking that is the problem? Of course Erin advises that hay and wild forage or vegetables along with hay to be the bulk of the diet but also a tablespoon of herbs/seed mix every few days to help with omegas and the vitamins they need as they wont be eating exactly as they would in the wild. As a scientist, what she is saying makes perfect sense to me. However i’m keeping in mind that the bulk of their diet would of course NOT be seeds as the wild piggies would be having them mainly only during the season where the plants go to seed. But it also means it wouldn’t be ZERO in the diet if you know what I mean. Anyway i’m rambling now. Thoughts?

Can Guinea Pigs Eat Seeds?

 

[Nyanzai]

Also I don’t think i’d be comfortable feeding sunflower or pumpkin seeds. I don’t think they’d come across those in the wild either, nor the large amount of vegetables she suggests to feed (10% of body weight a day!) I thought it was more like 10% of their daily diet and they seem to eat around 90-100g of hay a day. I’d imagine only around 10-15g need to be veggies (or replaced with wild forage, though no need to limit that).

I did some further research and all the pellets contain seeds too so probably what she says is correct. I’ve attached screenshots of the two most recommended pellets (Science supreme grain free and rosewood naturals)
I think with all the research I’ve done i’ll make a herb and small seed (like chia, flax, hemp and aromatic herb seeds) mix instead of pellets. Given a couple times a week.

i’m going to have to research more about small amounts of vitamin C rich dried berries and fruits and I don’t think they’d be a natural food source either but perhaps something like rose, lavender and hibiscus petals would be? What are the downsides to dried petals? Are they high in calcium?

 

[Nyanzai]

Oh scratch that. Definitely not hibiscus but maybe some rosehips instead.

 

[Piggies&buns]

The different would be that if the pellets list seeds as an ingredient, they would be ground up and be within the pellets themselves. Actual whole seeds should never be fed to guinea pigs - they are a choking hazard.

 

[Swissgreys]

Whilst the science behind it may make sense, please remember that our domesticated piggies are VERY far removed from the wild piggies she is talking about.
Domesticated pet piggies have changed in many ways and it is not safe to feed them seeds.
Seeds listed as ingredients in pellets have been ground up and offer valuable nutrition in a safe and easily digestible format.

Obviously it is up to you to feed what you feel is right for your piggies, but I personally would disagree that modern day pet piggies can safely eat seeds fed whole. Even if there is just a small chance of them causing a problem it is a risk I wouldn't be comfortable talking when there are plenty of safer alternatives to ensure they get a healthy, nutritionally appropraite diet.

 

[VickiA]

I think we’ve discussions about Erin’s Ark on here before. I would never feed seeds to my piggies.

I don’t think pellets are bad in themselves. The issue is the nutritional content of some and the amount that owners give them. If you adhere to the rule that 80% of a piggy’s diet should be good quality hay, 10% veg and 10% pellets then you shouldn’t go far wrong. As with all things relating to pets it’s our responsibility to make sure they get offered the right foods in the right proportions as they can’t go and choose what and when to eat.
@Flutterby very helpfully produced a pellet comparison chart for your help in deciding which pellets are better than others Nugget Comparison Chart
For health reasons I have switched my own piggies onto grain free pellets and they continue to receive a small amount per day.

 

[Nyanzai]

I’ve been doing a bit of Internet investigating and I know where she’s got the idea from. The German advice. Its actually different from the UK advice. I actually stumbled upon her forum post on a German forum.
So now is my conundrum, I live in Japan, am from the UK and have read up on German advice too. As with raising babies the advise differs from region to region. In Japan you have to keep the babies room at like 26 degrees for example and let them sleep next to their mother on a futon. In the UK its recommended sleep in a cot or crib and room should be kept cool in case of over heating.

when i’ve raised pets before i’ve usually followed German advice (raw feeding my cat),hamster diet advice and I have noticed the healthiest most natural commercial foods for most pets come from Germany so leaning towards their advice right now.

I do think feeding the piggies sunflower and pumpkin seeds is too risky but I feel maybe the other seeds, (maybe even ground if needs be) a teaspoon each per week might be the way to go. Omegas are important for brain as well as their skin and coat. I’m a personal believer in whole foods and don’t like the sound of added oils like in most pellets.

Anyway this has given me a lot to think about.

(you don’t need to worry just yet as I haven’t got any piggies right now. This is all research right now so I can make an informed and the best decision for them once we do have them).

 

[VickiA]

When Felix was poorly I had (on vets advice) to prepare him a liver support mixture of ground supplements mixed into a vegan omega 3 oil (flax seed oil). He actually seemed to enjoy it and his coat became glossy. So I can see that there may be a place for omega oil but I would only do this on vets advice.

 

[Nyanzai]

When Felix was poorly I had (on vets advice) to prepare him a liver support mixture of ground supplements mixed into a vegan omega 3 oil (flax seed oil). He actually seemed to enjoy it and his coat became glossy. So I can see that there may be a place for omega oil but I would only do this on vets advice.

I think the problem with oil alone is that it mostly adds calories without the fibre which is beneficial to digestion. I wouldn’t take oil alone myself under normal circumstances, being sick and advised so by a dr or vet is a different matter of course.

So i’ve found something like this, which seems like a good compromise, though I would prefer it to have more aromatic seeds in there and be organic but it should solve the choking risk.

Grunhopper Hemp & Flax Seed Flakes 100g — Bunny Meadow

Of course i’ll have to import them, which isn’t ideal if they even ship overseas as I don’t think something like this is available in Japan.

 

[Nyanzai]

If anyone is interested in what I found on the German forums, basically they recommend an ad libitum diet, which is basically summed up in English here. The recommend similar for bunnies and guinea pigs as the majority of the diet should be fresh.

The Ad Libitum Diet — Bunny Meadow

I also found this useful graphic on one German forum as their standard feeding advice.



Oh and one other interesting piece of advice that differs was the enclosure size of 140cm X 50cm but I think the m2 works out similar.

 

[Sweet Potato]

I would also worry about the fact that guinea pigs need a fibre based diet and don't need the high levels of protein found in seed mixes. as an animal that grazes most of their diet is hay or grass which is the main ingredient in most pellets. It's somewhat common practice to give piggies forage to provide enrichment as well as providing additional nutrients but this is usually dried leaves, herbs and plants such as dandelion, whole seeds are usually avoided because of the risk of choking and food getting stuck in their teeth.

 

[Swissgreys]

If anyone is interested in what I found on the German forums, basically they recommend an ad libitum diet, which is basically summed up in English here. The recommend similar for bunnies and guinea pigs as the majority of the diet should be fresh.

The Ad Libitum Diet — Bunny Meadow

I also found this useful graphic on one German forum as their standard feeding advice.

View attachment 139212

Oh and one other interesting piece of advice that differs was the enclosure size of 140cm X 50cm but I think the m2 works out similar.

But this is pretty much exactly what the forum recommends, but with around 10% veggies not 20%.
Plus I would be worried about a graphic which shows tomatos and carrots implying they could be given daily.
Both have known issues (acidity, too much sugar) and again aren't really part of a 'natural' approach.
I think you need to be objective - on the one hand they are saying lets follow the totally natural diet which includes seeds, and on the other lets give them lots of fruit and veggies?
I am pretty sure that in the wild they weren't getting such a high proportion of fruit and veg

 

[Swissgreys]

I think the problem with oil alone is that it mostly adds calories without the fibre which is beneficial to digestion. I wouldn’t take oil alone myself under normal circumstances, being sick and advised so by a dr or vet is a different matter of course.

So i’ve found something like this, which seems like a good compromise, though I would prefer it to have more aromatic seeds in there and be organic but it should solve the choking risk.

Grunhopper Hemp & Flax Seed Flakes 100g — Bunny Meadow

Of course i’ll have to import them, which isn’t ideal if they even ship overseas as I don’t think something like this is available in Japan.

I would always be wary purchasing food and treats from a website that;
1. Sells a complete food mix suitable for both rabbits and guinea pigs (they have different nutritional requirements, so they need different foods)
2. Links to their own article about why pellets are bad, and the most recent reference in their research is over 10 years old, and one is even from 1963! Really? The pet food industry for small animals has moved on a lot in the last 10 years so their research (which only promotes their own products) is not at all up to date.
3. Doesn't offer any nutritional analysis on any of their foods. For example protein content is a key factor in choosing an appropriate hamster food and they don't list any of this information becasue their complete hamster mix doesn't contain any animal based protein at all. I am actually horrified they can get away with calling it a complete food at all.
4. Their treats don't even have an ingredients list so you really have no idea what is actually in them.

Overall I would personally avoid this company as there are many better sources of healthy foods and treats for guinea pigs out there.

 

[Nyanzai]

But this is pretty much exactly what the forum recommends, but with around 10% veggies not 20%.
Plus I would be worried about a graphic which shows tomatos and carrots implying they could be given daily.
Both have known issues (acidity, too much sugar) and again aren't really part of a 'natural' approach.
I think you need to be objective - on the one hand they are saying lets follow the totally natural diet which includes seeds, and on the other lets give them lots of fruit and veggies?
I am pretty sure that in the wild they weren't getting such a high proportion of fruit and veg

Very good points! You are right, the high vegetables, 20% seems a lot. They do point out that actually hay is also rather high in sugar so we shouldn’t limit vegetables solely on this point but I do think that 20% of those type seems particularly high. I definitely don’t think there is a place for pellets BUT I think I can probably come up with a plan that tries to match both sets of advice as much as possible. I’ve been thinking:

1. The more grass and fresh green forage the better. should be bulk of diet.
2. Hay and water always to be provided.
3. A small amount of other vegetables per day (up to 10%)
4. Perhaps 20g of dried herbs a week if needed (probaby winter),
5. Fresh fruit as a treat a couple times a week
6. I feel like maybe a teaspoon a week (ground up) of aromatic seeds especially during winter for omegas would be okay too but I think also it would be okay not to give this all the time, just now and again and possibly even get away with not giving at all. Definitely not used like a pellet alternative.

This probably just about satisfies both sets of advice with a few compromises.

 

[Swissgreys]

Very good points! You are right, the high vegetables, 20% seems a lot. They do point out that actually hay is also rather high in sugar so we shouldn’t limit vegetables solely on this point

But what they fail to point out is that 'sugar' in hay is totally different to 'sugar' in fruit.
It is not appropriate to just quote sugar levels in a particular food, as this is a complex science which covers bio-avaiablity based on the form of the sugar - you can't directly compare simple sugars, starches and complex carbohydrates. Ask any diabetic if the sugar in orange juice is the same as the sugar in an orange.

Yes they are both 'sugar' but the way they enter and are absorbed by the digestive tract are very different and result in totally different levels of uptake.
For the vast majority of pet owners the science behind this is complex (and lets be honest - quite dull), and is something that can be used by a company to promote their own feeding methods to the general population who don't have the time or background to fully research and understand the more complex issues, but makes the company sound knowledgeable and credible.

 

[Nyanzai]

Also I’ve just realised that maybe the 20% comes from the fact they recommend to offer 200g of fresh veg per day but not that the piggies will eat 200g. Just that you should offer a large variety of foods per day so they can select which ones they want to eat as in the wild when grazing they’d be exhibiting selective behaviours. They’d know which plants to eat and which to avoid. The piggies will of course eat less than that but should be offered in abundance so piggies can take their time instead of wolfing down a small portion as they tend to get excited when presented with it. They also mention that vegetables are not the ideal but fresh seems to be better than dried for digestion and the best replacement we have for fresh forage would be vegetables. That said, the culture in Japan, is not to waste even a scrap of food so I’d not feel good offering high amounts when we only expect at most half to be eaten since vegetables are our food too! My husband definitely wouldn’t like the waste, so I think definitely more towards the 10% for us.

Of course for me, I have no experience myself with piggies so I have to go on what others are saying, on here and elsewhere. For me as i’m still not 100% sure, i’ll try to strike a balance.
As for Japanese pet care advice, I definitely won’t be taking it as they don’t even advise a large enough enclosure and animal welfare here is not up to scratch. I think things are slowly changing but VERY slow.

 

[Nyanzai]

But what they fail to point out is that 'sugar' in hay is totally different to 'sugar' in fruit.
It is not appropriate to just quote sugar levels in a particular food, as this is a complex science which covers bio-avaiablity based on the form of the sugar - you can't directly compare simple sugars, starches and complex carbohydrates. Ask any diabetic if the sugar in orange juice is the same as the sugar in an orange.

Yes they are both 'sugar' but the way they enter and are absorbed by the digestive tract are very different and result in totally different levels of uptake.
For the vast majority of pet owners the science behind this is complex (and lets be honest - quite dull), and is something that can be used by a company to promote their own feeding methods to the general population who don't have the time or background to fully research and understand the more complex issues, but makes the company sound knowledgeable and credible.

Again good points! I am aware of the difference, however the difference in an orange and an orange juice say is the fibre. The organge being a whole food with the fibre intact would be preferable (or at least to me)

dried food does tend in general to have more concentrated amounts but again i’d have to look into it more. Do you know of any current peer reviewed research papers (of course not funded by pet food companies) I could read to further my knowledge in this area?

 

[Swissgreys]

The issue is that very little research is being done becasue this isn't an area that offers much financial incentive.
There are papers out there, but a lot depends on your specific area of interest.
Plus animal based studies in a lab setting are controversial and expensive, and these are the studies that generate proper research data, but are unlikely to be carried out for something like guinea pig foods.

At the end of the day you can research forever, but if you take an objective and scientific approach there are also much better ways to spend you time.
You have repeatedly quoted Erins Ark. Do you believe them to be a scientifcially based web site, with no ulterior motive, and a solid and an up to date scientific background? Have you asked them probing questions (like you have here) and have they responded in a logial way with answers that you are happy with.
If so then follow their recommendations.
If not look for somewhere that fulfills these (or your own specific) criteria.
We all do things differently and there is no hard and fast right and wrong.
Do your research, do what feels right to you, do your best.

 

[Nyanzai]

The issue is that very little research is being done becasue this isn't an area that offers much financial incentive.
There are papers out there, but a lot depends on your specific area of interest.
Plus animal based studies in a lab setting are controversial and expensive, and these are the studies that generate proper research data, but are unlikely to be carried out for something like guinea pig foods.

At the end of the day you can research forever, but if you take an objective and scientific approach there are also much better ways to spend you time.
You have repeatedly quoted Erins Ark. Do you believe them to be a scientifcially based web site, with no ulterior motive, and a solid and an up to date scientific background? Have you asked them probing questions (like you have here) and have they responded in a logial way with answers that you are happy with.
If so then follow their recommendations.
If not look for somewhere that fulfills these (or your own specific) criteria.
We all do things differently and there is no hard and fast right and wrong.
Do your research, do what feels right to you, do your best.

Thank you! You talk a lot of sense. As a potential owner, i’d like to do things by the book, do the best for my future piggies but of course there isn’t always one book.
As for Erin’s ark, I quoted her just at the top of the page, the second link was a different website altogether but both seem to follow the German advice. Just more accessible as they are written in English.
You are also right in that I do need to now go onto the forums and speak with people on there like I have done here.

i’m not sure i’ll be 100% convinced of either “side” as from my experience with other topics, the science often can prove conflicting points depending on how the data is analysed (there are many tricks of the trade employed to make data seem favourable to your objectives and interests). Only a real picture becomes available when there are a large number of peer reviewed good quality studies and we just don’t have that right now.

So in the end it comes down to my belief as you have pointed out.
Thank you for this discussion it has been very useful for me. I think I’ll definitely base the diet on the points which are agreeable between the two communities and make tweaks here and there when and if issues arise. I just need to make sure I can be knowledgeable to spot any issues as soon as possible.

At the very least, by following more European advice (UK or German) I know will be better for the piggies than following the Japanese advice so at least I can take heart in that. Of course i’ll just do my best. Thank you again.

 

[Sweet Potato]

The concept of offering more than the piggies can eat so that they show selective behaviours worries me. Guinea pigs don't show much self control when it comes to food and piggies can become overweight if overfed. My boys have never turned down food due to being full or having had enough they only reject food if they don't like it. Many animals don't have a concept of being selective with foods as food in the wild is usually limited to what they can find and is dependant on the seasons, whether etc. Not to mention that in the wild guinea pigs would get a lot of exercise looking for food rather than having the luxury of just having food appear before them. If all animals were able to limit their own diet when given large amounts of food in captivity we would not have the huge problems with obese pets that we have in our society.

 

[Nyanzai]

The concept of offering more than the piggies can eat so that they show selective behaviours worries me. Guinea pigs don't show much self control when it comes to food and piggies can become overweight if overfed. My boys have never turned down food due to being full or having had enough they only reject food if they don't like it. Many animals don't have a concept of being selective with foods as food in the wild is usually limited to what they can find and is dependant on the seasons, whether etc. Not to mention that in the wild guinea pigs would get a lot of exercise looking for food rather than having the luxury of just having food appear before them. If all animals were able to limit their own diet when given large amounts of food in captivity we would not have the huge problems with obese pets that we have in our society.

Thank you! I think you are right. Since I last posted, i’ve been continuing my research and found some opposing opinions in German that don’t believe in unlimited green fodder and certainly not of vegetables. It is in German but google translate does a good job.

Navigation für Ernährungstipps:

Taking this advice into account, the 8-10% of body weight per day would be appropriate.
They also say that you can go without pellets but if you must, a maximum of 1 tbsp per day, so basically what this forum recommends.


They argue why they don’t believe in the popular advice of ad lib feeding which also makes sense. Most of all, just as we agreed above, piggies wouldn’t be getting so much veg in the wild.

So basically i’ve come a full circle It has been a fun ride.


I think overall i’m going to try pellet free but follow the rest of the advice on here for proportions with hay as the bulk of diet. I’ve not decided 100% on what to do about omegas. Probably more research until I feel confident in a decision. It may turn out that adding a pellet is the best choice.

Thank you to everyone contributing here so far. I hope you don’t think that my intentions are to argue. I am taking on board everything everyone is saying and value your opinions as you are the very people with experience and I have none, rather only some theoretical knowledge. I have been using this thread as a sounding board to work out why advice differs and to try to find out the very best diet (I guess you could say diet is very important to me as I do a lot of reading human nutrition research).

 

[Sweet Potato]

It's good to be sceptical and it's great that you're really doing your research first. Life would be boring if there was only one right answer to everything so all we can do is try our best. A lot of people opt for a pellet free diet and It works out great for them but I don't feel I have enough faith in my own ability to meet all my pigs nutritional needs this way. I personally give my piggies a small scoop of high quality timothy hay based pellets every morning and a small side plate of mixed veggies and lettuce in the evening and I have found this works best for our family.

 

[Nyanzai]

It's good to be sceptical and it's great that you're really doing your research first. Life would be boring if there was only one right answer to everything so all we can do is try our best. A lot of people opt for a pellet free diet and It works out great for them but I don't feel I have enough faith in my own ability to meet all my pigs nutritional needs this way. I personally give my piggies a small scoop of high quality timothy hay based pellets every morning and a small side plate of mixed veggies and lettuce in the evening and I have found this works best for our family.

Yes I understand the worry. I think i’ll also feel this way if i’m honest. The only thing for me is supply. There seems to be a lack of good quality pellets here (most contain grains or added sugar).

i’m not sure if I can import animal feed so think i’m limited to what is here.

I’m going to keep looking just incase I do find a great one, in which case I’d have no qualms with small quantities. Ideally i’d like one with mostly timothy/grass added vit C from natural sources and perhaps something that deals with the omegas like added flax or preferably aromatic seeds like fennel seed or cumin/caraway. Low calcium and preferably organic (as our own food is predominantly organic) without the addition of all the other artificial vitamins and minerals, but I very much doubt anything like that exists