Dried Grass - Why is it too rich?

[Silverkita]

Hi all,

Sorry if this is a silly question.

So I've noticed a few times on this forum people mentioning dried grass (specifically Readigrass) as being too rich, and should only be a treat.

I'm just curious as to why this is? As I was under the impression dried grass was more nutritionally similar to fresh grass, sort of an "in between" between fresh grass and hay. With guinea pig's natural diet being majoritively fresh grass, I was just a little surprised to read this.

So I'm wondering if my general impression of dried grass is totally wrong and it's actually quite different eg. perhaps some nutrients become more concentrated in the drying process? Is it specifically Readigrass that's too rich or all dried grass products?

I enjoy researching animal nutrition so it's just something I'm curious about! Hope it's ok to ask this here.

 

[Engel]

Ask away, no such thing as a silly question! Readigrass is high in calcium which can cause bladder stones and irritate the bladder especially if the piggy has a sensitive bladder anyway. So it's best as a treat maybe 1-2 times a week.

A hay that should really be avoided is alfalfa hay which is very calcium heavy. Admittedly this isn't a grass hay but a legume. The only time this should really be used is in cases of neglect/malnourishment.

Any other grass hay is absolutely fine to feed in unlimited amounts. They do have slight differences between them but nothing major. Here's our hay guide which talks about it more in depth and covers alfalfa and readigrass too: A Comprehensive Hay Guide for Guinea Pigs (incl. providers in several countries)

 

[Silverkita]

Ask away, no such thing as a silly question! Readigrass is high in calcium which can cause bladder stones and irritate the bladder especially if the piggy has a sensitive bladder anyway. So it's best as a treat maybe 1-2 times a week.

A hay that should really be avoided is alfalfa hay which is very calcium heavy. Admittedly this isn't a grass hay but a legume. The only time this should really be used is in cases of neglect/malnourishment.

Any other grass hay is absolutely fine to feed in unlimited amounts. They do have slight differences between them but nothing major. Here's our hay guide which talks about it more in depth and covers alfalfa and readigrass too: A Comprehensive Hay Guide for Guinea Pigs (incl. providers in several countries)

Thanks for the reply!

Ah, so it's the calcium. That makes sense! I have looked up Readigrass' nutrients and see it has a 2:1 Ca: P ratio.

I'm wondering if anyone has any information of the nutrition levels in fresh grass - at least roughly? I know it completely depends on time of year and the species of grasses. But I'd really like to keep learning more and adding to my own notes I'm building.

I've tried looking it up but I suppose as it's not a product, not something people eat, and not something with consistent levels, it's difficult to find. I'd just really love to find out the vague Ca: P ratio of fresh grass to compare.

I know about alfalfa and such, so no worries there.

The forum post you linked to I have read before, but it only states that dried grass is higher in protein and more similar to fresh grass. Which is why I was surprised it then said it should only be given in small amounts - I had thought that, provided the guinea pigs were slowly introduced to it and built up, fresh grass could be fed in fairly large quantities? Being their natural diet and all.

But again if Readigrass has a higher calcium content than actual fresh grass it makes sense to not feed much of it.

I just really like learning about these kinds of things!

 

[YvonneBlue]

I looked into the Calcium content of Readigrass and Timothy Hay. Often Timothy Hay will have over 0.4% Calcium and Readigrass 0.5% so not that much difference in reality. Orchard Hay and Meadow Hay often have less Calcium that Timothy Hay and Readigrass. I am reading generally that it is all about the Calcium to Phosphorous ratio in the diet rather than just the amount of Calcium that is the problem. However, i am not an expert so i do give Readigrass but just a sprinkle on top to the meadow hay.

 

[Silverkita]

I looked into the Calcium content of Readigrass and Timothy Hay. Often Timothy Hay will have over 0.4% Calcium and Readigrass 0.5% so not that much difference in reality. Orchard Hay and Meadow Hay often have less Calcium that Timothy Hay and Readigrass. I am reading generally that it is all about the Calcium to Phosphorous ratio in the diet rather than just the amount of Calcium that is the problem. However, i am not an expert so i do give Readigrass but just a sprinkle on top to the meadow hay.

Yeah, I noticed from Guinea Lynx's hay chart that "early bloom" timothy hay can have a ratio of 1.8:1 - not too far off Readigrass' 2:1 so this also surprised me.
Though I mostly use meadow hay or a mixture of a few hays for my rabbits so when/if I get pigs it'll likely be meadow hay/combination hays for them too.

I suppose perhaps a combination of the higher protein, lower fibre and slightly higher calcium in dried grasses may be why they're too much? Not that I'd really planned to feed masses of Readigrass, or replace hay with it. It's just a curiosity thing more than anything else.

Certainly a lot to learn about!

 

[eileen]

The calcium levels in readi grass is 0.5.

 

[Engel]

The amount of calcium and other minerals in grass depends on the soil it's grown in. But here's what I've found.

 

[Silverkita]

The amount of calcium and other minerals in grass depends on the soil it's grown in. But here's what I've found.View attachment 197425

Ah thank you! That's exactly what I'd been looking for but couldn't find. Apparently just didn't google the right terms, as I have the tendency to overthink these things lol...

Definitely it'll depend on how/where it's grown, but having a rough idea to add to my notes while I'm learning is very helpful.

Wow though - that means that based on this sample, the average Ca: P ratio was 3.4:1 - not what I expected. I suppose it's averaged out from a wide variety of samples though...

Still all of this has been very interesting to learn about so thank you again

 

[Bill & Ted]

I must say I would be interested in the calcium levels in normal grass. All my piggies get a handful of grass everyday, they love it

 

[Wiebke]

Thanks for the reply!

Ah, so it's the calcium. That makes sense! I have looked up Readigrass' nutrients and see it has a 2:1 Ca: P ratio.

I'm wondering if anyone has any information of the nutrition levels in fresh grass - at least roughly? I know it completely depends on time of year and the species of grasses. But I'd really like to keep learning more and adding to my own notes I'm building.

I've tried looking it up but I suppose as it's not a product, not something people eat, and not something with consistent levels, it's difficult to find. I'd just really love to find out the vague Ca: P ratio of fresh grass to compare.

I know about alfalfa and such, so no worries there.

The forum post you linked to I have read before, but it only states that dried grass is higher in protein and more similar to fresh grass. Which is why I was surprised it then said it should only be given in small amounts - I had thought that, provided the guinea pigs were slowly introduced to it and built up, fresh grass could be fed in fairly large quantities? Being their natural diet and all.

But again if Readigrass has a higher calcium content than actual fresh grass it makes sense to not feed much of it.

I just really like learning about these kinds of things!

Hi

Fresh growing grass and hay are the core of what guinea pigs have evolved on and what their digestive system and their dental growth rate depends on. Fresh growing grass is high in vitamin C, which is the reason why guinea pigs never needed to make their own. But you have to be careful when introducing it on an accustomed digestive system (as with all fresh foods) until the microbiome has adjusted in order to avoid diarrhea or bloating. You should still offer hay because too much grass and fresh veg especially in hot weather can cause soft poos or worse.
The problem is that it is very hard to measure that up as it very much depends on the quality of the grass and hay you are feeding, which never consistent - but they account for 75-80% of the daily food intake and are crucial for long term health and a longer life span.

Veg and pellets basically replace the supplementing role of wild forage. It is sobering to know that more calcium is coming in the diet via the water (even more so in mainly hard water countries like the UK) and that even no added calcium pellets still contain a lot more calcium than the veg highest in vitamin C. Reducing your pellet intake to 1 tablespoon per piggy per day and filtering your water are much more effective measures to minimise the risk of bladder stones than any ph:ca veg mathematics.

Our biggest problem with the ph:ca diet is that it only focuses on veg but not on the diet as a whole and that it is pretty impossible to compute properly for everywhere in the world due to changing local conditions. It has never worked for us on here and has in fact caused quite a few bladder stones when we tried it with our own piggies a decade ago. We no longer recommend it as a result.

Our own diet recommendations do hit the 'soft' spot where bladder stones don't happen but they have grown very much out of practical experience. We are looking at diet as a whole and at all food groups and their role, including water
I've only had one bladder stone in the last 9 years and that was in the wake of the erratic fresh food supplies/reduced shopping due to shielding at the start of the pandemic when most fresh leafy stuff was on the higher calcium side. My own piggies live about 1-2 years longer on average despite often being rescue adoptees with a horrible background.

Please be aware that with any dry forage (including readigrass) the water evaporates but not the calcium, so they should be rather used in small amounts as a treat/supplement and not as a regular part of the diet. Readigrass is also too rich for guinea pigs and can lead to overweight. We have had a few cases of people having more bladder stones after switching to feeding increased amounts of readigrass. You will have to compensate reducing another major source of calcium.

Diet on the whole is very much a minefield - there is no such thing as the perfect diet that works everywhere. Here is our own diet guide: Long Term Balanced General And Special Needs Guinea Pig Diets

 

[Silverkita]

Hi

Fresh growing grass and hay are the core of what guinea pigs have evolved on and what their digestive system and their dental growth rate depends on. Fresh growing grass is high in vitamin C, which is the reason why guinea pigs never needed to make their own. But you have to be careful when introducing it on an accustomed digestive system (as with all fresh foods) until the microbiome has adjusted in order to avoid diarrhea or bloating. You should still offer hay because too much grass and fresh veg especially in hot weather can cause soft poos or worse.
The problem is that it is very hard to measure that up as it very much depends on the quality of the grass and hay you are feeding, which never consistent - but they account for 75-80% of the daily food intake and are crucial for long term health and a longer life span.

Veg and pellets basically replace the supplementing role of wild forage. It is sobering to know that more calcium is coming in the diet via the water (even more so in mainly hard water countries like the UK) and that even no added calcium pellets still contain a lot more calcium than the veg highest in vitamin C. Reducing your pellet intake to 1 tablespoon per piggy per day and filtering your water are much more effective measures to minimise the risk of bladder stones than any ph:ca veg mathematics.

Our biggest problem with the ph:ca diet is that it only focuses on veg but not on the diet as a whole and that it is pretty impossible to compute properly for everywhere in the world due to changing local conditions. It has never worked for us on here and has in fact caused quite a few bladder stones when we tried it with our own piggies a decade ago. We no longer recommend it as a result.

Our own diet recommendations do hit the 'soft' spot where bladder stones don't happen but they have grown very much out of practical experience. We are looking at diet as a whole and at all food groups and their role, including water
I've only had one bladder stone in the last 9 years and that was in the wake of the erratic fresh food supplies/reduced shopping due to shielding at the start of the pandemic when most fresh leafy stuff was on the higher calcium side. My own piggies live about 1-2 years longer on average despite often being rescue adoptees with a horrible background.

Please be aware that with any dry forage (including readigrass) the water evaporates but not the calcium, so they should be rather used in small amounts as a treat/supplement and not as a regular part of the diet. Readigrass is also too rich for guinea pigs and can lead to overweight. We have had a few cases of people having more bladder stones after switching to feeding increased amounts of readigrass. You will have to compensate reducing another major source of calcium.

Diet on the whole is very much a minefield - there is no such thing as the perfect diet that works everywhere. Here is our own diet guide: Long Term Balanced General And Special Needs Guinea Pig Diets

Ah, this is all fantastic information, thank you so much!

I feel a little silly, but it makes a lot more sense now. I was struggling to get my mind around how dried grass and fresh grass were so different, but of course, it's the difference in moisture content.

Really, I probably should've been able to figure that out by myself. It's exactly the same as dry pellets vs. fresh veg, where even a high calcium veg like kale, still contains less mg of calcium than the same weight of pellets, because of its higher moisture content. I know this, but because of my overthinking, I didn't think of it.

Don't worry, I know about introducing new foods slowly, and never had any plans to feed masses of Readigrass or anything. I understand that when people say "only a small amount as a treat", it's for a reason, I just couldn't work out why!

I don't have guinea pigs yet but this is all great stuff to know. Even the parts I already knew, it's still helpful to have it all in one context - and I'm sure it'll be helpful to anyone who has the same question as me and comes to read this post.

Where we live we have very hard water, like most of the UK. I have already been planning to get a water filter for my rabbits (just need to decide on one!) so if/when we have pigs, they'll be using that too.

I agree that diet should be looked at as a whole and not just parts, there's no balanced diet if you only look at some of it.

I'm very grateful for all the knowledge everyone has shared with me here, it's definitely a big help.

 

[Swissgreys]

Ah, this is all fantastic information, thank you so much!

I feel a little silly, but it makes a lot more sense now. I was struggling to get my mind around how dried grass and fresh grass were so different, but of course, it's the difference in moisture content.

Really, I probably should've been able to figure that out by myself. It's exactly the same as dry pellets vs. fresh veg, where even a high calcium veg like kale, still contains less mg of calcium than the same weight of pellets, because of its higher moisture content. I know this, but because of my overthinking, I didn't think of it.

The other aspect that a lot of people fail to take into consideration is the moisture content has a second effect.
We can consume a lot more dried food as it doesn't fill us up so quickly.

Think about the difference between 20 raisins and 20 grapes - one is dried and is a very small amount to consume, and the other isn't and will feel like a lot more.
So we would naturally eat more raisins than grapes, even though they are technically the same thing.
So it is easier for a piggy to eat a lot more dried grass than fresh.

 

[Bill & Ted]

This all makes perfect sense now. Not that I’ve ever used to but a small amount of “Smash” potato granules makes a far larger amount of potato when water is added

 

[Wiebke]

Ah, this is all fantastic information, thank you so much!

I feel a little silly, but it makes a lot more sense now. I was struggling to get my mind around how dried grass and fresh grass were so different, but of course, it's the difference in moisture content.

Really, I probably should've been able to figure that out by myself. It's exactly the same as dry pellets vs. fresh veg, where even a high calcium veg like kale, still contains less mg of calcium than the same weight of pellets, because of its higher moisture content. I know this, but because of my overthinking, I didn't think of it.

Don't worry, I know about introducing new foods slowly, and never had any plans to feed masses of Readigrass or anything. I understand that when people say "only a small amount as a treat", it's for a reason, I just couldn't work out why!

I don't have guinea pigs yet but this is all great stuff to know. Even the parts I already knew, it's still helpful to have it all in one context - and I'm sure it'll be helpful to anyone who has the same question as me and comes to read this post.

Where we live we have very hard water, like most of the UK. I have already been planning to get a water filter for my rabbits (just need to decide on one!) so if/when we have pigs, they'll be using that too.

I agree that diet should be looked at as a whole and not just parts, there's no balanced diet if you only look at some of it.

I'm very grateful for all the knowledge everyone has shared with me here, it's definitely a big help.

Hi

If you are doing your research, you may find our pretty comprehensive practical information collections very helpful; they contain our collective forum experience with tens of thousands of inquiries and our long term owner experience which in cases goes back to as far as half a century. We currently have one of the most extensive practical resources on pet guinea pigs around. The guides format allows us to update where needed and we can always add new information, too.

Are Guinea Pigs For Me? - Wannabe Owners' Helpful Information
Comprehensive Owners' Practical and Supportive Information Collection