Dosing of glucosamine for IC

[HEvan]

Hello,

I'm enquiring about the dosage of feeliway glucosamine 125mg for my guinea pig star who I believe has quiet a bad case of IC after a long time being treated for supposed UTI.

She is still on enrocare for vaginal sores, plus Flamazine which has cleared all but 1 sore (yay). Plus having 0.16 cat metecam twice daily. She had a repeat ultrasound which showed a very inflamed bladder and urethra, all other organs normal about 4 weeks ago. She also has been blood free in urine for 2 weeks (yay). I'm aware glucosamine takes about 4-8 weeks to show effects so due another uss in around 2-4 weeks.

I started her on oxbow urinary support shortly after but through this site found info about feeliway glucosamine nearly 2 weeks ago. I stopped the oxbow as had only 45mg of glucosamine. Now basing from the feeliway box, I've been giving star 3rd of a capsule per day. But seeing lots of other posts, others are given much more in moderate to severe cases or in flare ups. Due to being mis diagnosed for so long it's left her on the more sever side. My vets are lovely, but not cavvy savvy. They cant tell me much about dosing as the feeliway is not licenced for guinea pigs. The closest is 1.5 hours on train as unfortunately do not drive.

Star is a small piggy, always has been, last wieght 0.91kg.

Shes doing fine in herself, maintaining wieght, still feral for food, and playing around and poos normal. But she is still have lots of small wees and a bit of dripping.

 

[Engel]

Hello and welcome to the forum. Star is a pretty little piggy.

I typically dilute 1 cystease capsule to 1ml water. Leave to dissolve for an hour and store in the fridge.

I started by giving 0.5ml twice a day for a few weeks. You can increase to 1ml twice a day in severe cases and flares but try lower doses first.

Once it's under control you can experiment and lower the dosage to find a maintenance dose that suits Star. Maintenance doses are as individual as the pigs themselves. I think @Wiebke managed a maintenance dose of 0.35ml but with my Mia, a maintenance dose of 0.5ml is the lowest we can go.

Some piggies won't respond to cystease but @Eriathwen has more experience with this.

In the mean time, provide plenty of bottles and bowls around the cage. Filtered water is best as it removes a lot of the calcium which can cause issues and cause the formation of stones. Filtered water also tastes better, so would encourage Star to drink more. Wet veggies and grass before you give it to her and her cage mates. Increased water intake will help to flush the bladder which will help with inflammation too as urine and gunk isn't sitting in there for a prolonged period of time. Remember only 1tbsp of pellets, which can be fed every other day if needed, and plenty of hay.

Out of curiosity, how old is Star? Has she had an x-ray to completely rule out the presence of stones?

 

[Wiebke]

Hello,

I'm enquiring about the dosage of feeliway glucosamine 125mg for my guinea pig star who I believe has quiet a bad case of IC after a long time being treated for supposed UTI.

She is still on enrocare for vaginal sores, plus Flamazine which has cleared all but 1 sore (yay). Plus having 0.16 cat metecam twice daily. She had a repeat ultrasound which showed a very inflamed bladder and urethra, all other organs normal about 4 weeks ago. She also has been blood free in urine for 2 weeks (yay). I'm aware glucosamine takes about 4-8 weeks to show effects so due another uss in around 2-4 weeks.

I started her on oxbow urinary support shortly after but through this site found info about feeliway glucosamine nearly 2 weeks ago. I stopped the oxbow as had only 45mg of glucosamine. Now basing from the feeliway box, I've been giving star 3rd of a capsule per day. But seeing lots of other posts, others are given much more in moderate to severe cases or in flare ups. Due to being mis diagnosed for so long it's left her on the more sever side. My vets are lovely, but not cavvy savvy. They cant tell me much about dosing as the feeliway is not licenced for guinea pigs. The closest is 1.5 hours on train as unfortunately do not drive.

Star is a small piggy, always has been, last wieght 0.91kg.

Shes doing fine in herself, maintaining wieght, still feral for food, and playing around and poos normal. But she is still have lots of small wees and a bit of dripping.

Hi

I recommend to mix the contents of 1 feliway capsule with 2 ml of water for better consistency (1 ml is very gloopy) and give 1 ml of it twice day or you give it all in one go once daily. Shake the mix well before every use. A small veterinary medicine bottle is ideal for the job.
What I have done on occasion is give two capsules a day for 2-3 days in a more severe flare up to my Breila since that did get it under control quickest; more quickly than maxing out on the metacam.

The problem with IC is that it comes in such a spectrum that you have to work out for yourself where exactly your piggy is ranged with some experimentation in order to work out how far up you have to go with an acute flare and how low you can keep it safely as a maintenance dosage in between flares without causing a new one. Once you have established that for yourself, then it is easier to manage IC within that spectrum. Eventually, hopefully, the interval between flares will start to lengthen and the severity of it will weaken and go away on its own, never to return.

But you are looking at a process that may take several years rather than months. My Breila had just got over her own medium range IC when she sadly passed away rather suddenly from an unrelated cause, aged 5 years, just before Christmas after having had it for just about 4 years.
My Nerys had IC for 3 years (and lived for another 3 years to celbrate her 8th birthday); hers was milder so after finally getting on top of it - it was over a decade ago when experience with IC management was a lot more limited since it was a 'new kid on the block' then - I could manage hers with half or in the last year even a quarter of a capsule a day without her getting any flares unless I stopped the cystease completely to see whether she had got past it after months without a flare. Poor girl - we had a battle with chronic UTI for about half a year since IC was then very little known although vets were increasingly complaining about a 'resistant UTI'.
Caron had her IC for about 1 1/2 years in a much milder way.
I've thankfully never had a piggy with a more severe case of IC

 

[HEvan]

Hi

I recommend to mix the contents of 1 feliway capsule with 2 ml of water for better consistency (1 ml is very gloopy) and give 1 ml of it twice day or you give it all in one go once daily. Shake the mix well before every use. A small veterinary medicine bottle is ideal for the job.
What I have done on occasion is give two capsules a day for 2-3 days in a more severe flare up to my Breila since that did get it under control quickest; more quickly than maxing out on the metacam.

The problem with IC is that it comes in such a spectrum that you have to work out for yourself where exactly your piggy is ranged with some experimentation in order to work out how far up you have to go with an acute flare and how low you can keep it safely as a maintenance dosage in between flares without causing a new one. Once you have established that for yourself, then it is easier to manage IC within that spectrum. Eventually, hopefully, the interval between flares will start to lengthen and the severity of it will weaken and go away on its own, never to return.

But you are looking at a process that may take several years rather than months. My Breila had just got over her own medium range IC when she sadly passed away rather suddenly from an unrelated cause, aged 5 years, just before Christmas after having had it for just about 4 years.
My Nerys had IC for 3 years (and lived for another 3 years to celbrate her 8th birthday); hers was milder so after finally getting on top of it - it was over a decade ago when experience with IC management was a lot more limited since it was a 'new kid on the block' then - I could manage hers with half or in the last year even a quarter of a capsule a day without her getting any flares unless I stopped the cystease completely to see whether she had got past it after months without a flare. Poor girl - we had a battle with chronic UTI for about half a year since IC was then very little known although vets were increasingly complaining about a 'resistant UTI'.
Caron had her IC for about 1 1/2 years in a much milder way.
I've thankfully never had a piggy with a more severe case of IC

Thank you for the response.

Star is 1 year and 6 months.

I'm not diluting it, as she's terrible at taking things from syringe. I'm putting the contents of the capsule on some kind of wet leafy green, rolling it and she takes it well. Is that okay?

It's hard to tell right now if it's making any progress as she's only been on it for 2 weeks and I won't know untill she has another scan in around 2-4 weeks.

I was just worried I'm either giving too less or giving her too much and poisoning her or something.

Okay so it's safe to give her a whole capsule in a day of 125mg? Because it's medium to severe case, what's the highest you would recommend?

She hasn't had an xray as the vets were sure she doesnt have a stone. But she is having regular ultrasounds

 

[HEvan]

Hello and welcome to the forum. Star is a pretty little piggy.

I typically dilute 1 cystease capsule to 1ml water. Leave to dissolve for an hour and store in the fridge.

I started by giving 0.5ml twice a day for a few weeks. You can increase to 1ml twice a day in severe cases and flares but try lower doses first.

Once it's under control you can experiment and lower the dosage to find a maintenance dose that suits Star. Maintenance doses are as individual as the pigs themselves. I think @Wiebke managed a maintenance dose of 0.35ml but with my Mia, a maintenance dose of 0.5ml is the lowest we can go.

Some piggies won't respond to cystease but @Eriathwen has more experience with this.

In the mean time, provide plenty of bottles and bowls around the cage. Filtered water is best as it removes a lot of the calcium which can cause issues and cause the formation of stones. Filtered water also tastes better, so would encourage Star to drink more. Wet veggies and grass before you give it to her and her cage mates. Increased water intake will help to flush the bladder which will help with inflammation too as urine and gunk isn't sitting in there for a prolonged period of time. Remember only 1tbsp of pellets, which can be fed every other day if needed, and plenty of hay.

Out of curiosity, how old is Star? Has she had an x-ray to completely rule out the presence of stones?

Thank you for the response.

She hasn't had an xray as vets are certain she doesnt have stone but is having regular ultrasounds.

Star is 1 year and 6 months.

Yes I bought a water filter few weeks ago for their bottle. I'm giving regular cucumber, and wetting veg with thier dinner and breakfast.

Shes due another ultrasound in 2-4 weeks to see if what I've been doing the last few weeks and with the glucosamine is helping at all. If no change or worsening, a referral to a guinea pig specialist has been made but is currently on hold due to see if this plan makes a difference. The specialist is 1.5 hours away in train and I know it will stress star out travelling that far but I plan to continue with them for actual answers. I just really hope there is some ki d of improvement

 

[Wiebke]

Thank you for the response.

Star is 1 year and 6 months.

I'm not diluting it, as she's terrible at taking things from syringe. I'm putting the contents of the capsule on some kind of wet leafy green, rolling it and she takes it well. Is that okay?

It's hard to tell right now if it's making any progress as she's only been on it for 2 weeks and I won't know untill she has another scan in around 2-4 weeks.

I was just worried I'm either giving too less or giving her too much and poisoning her or something.

Okay so it's safe to give her a whole capsule in a day of 125mg? Because it's medium to severe case, what's the highest you would recommend?

She hasn't had an xray as the vets were sure she doesnt have a stone. But she is having regular ultrasounds

If Star is taking the powder that way, then that is perfectly fine. My Breila was the same age when she started with her IC. Once you get on top of the acute symptoms, it is only the flares every few weeks that are a nuisance but she will be able to live a normal life.

I would however discuss with your vet the metacam dosage. As it stands, it the lowest possible dosage that can be prescribed and won't do much for either the inflammation in the walls nor the pain from the urine hitting patches where the glucosamine is not giving enough protection between the corrosive urine and the raw tissue in the walls.

As long as you do not unbalance the diet, there is also no risk of bladder stones since IC is a very different beast - it affects the walls of the urinary tract but not the calcium absorption process. Has your vet excluded stones properly or had urine check for bacteria done before going along with the IC diagnosis?

You may want to consider some syringe training, through, with a substance. It will make things a lot easier in case of a major illness. Guinea pigs pick also up on your insecurities; the more practised you are, the more will they accept syringes.
Our new comprehensive guide has got a training video: All About Syringe Feeding and Medicating Guinea Pigs with Videos and Pictures

 

[Eriathwen]

I would ask your vet if there is any wiggle room with the metacam to be honest as that is quite a low dose, my own are on 3xs as much of the dog metacam which itself is 3xs stronger than the cat, so quite a significant difference! Dosing has changed quite a bit in the last few years and guinea pigs can tolerate much higher amounts of metacam than previously thought.

I also never had much luck with the cystease capsules myself but are certainly worth trying, however I have been seeing better results with the extra strength johnsons 4joints liquid for cats and dogs at 0.4ml once a day.

Ebony would be considered my most severe case of IC, and she is one of 2 of my piggies who recieve cartrophen injections, the improvement with this was almost immediate, she has barely any symptoms at all now, whereas before every pee and poo she would absolutely scream the place down, strain and lurch around. She is also able to enjoy a pretty normal diet on the injections too, whereas before I had to be very strict with trigger foods.
I would also speak to your vet about trying those injections, theyre pretty simple, my vet showed me how to do them and now I do them at home which takes away the stress of a monthly vet visit too.

 

[HEvan]

I would ask your vet if there is any wiggle room with the metacam to be honest as that is quite a low dose, my own are on 3xs as much of the dog metacam which itself is 3xs stronger than the cat, so quite a significant difference! Dosing has changed quite a bit in the last few years and guinea pigs can tolerate much higher amounts of metacam than previously thought.

I also never had much luck with the cystease capsules myself but are certainly worth trying, however I have been seeing better results with the extra strength johnsons 4joints liquid for cats and dogs at 0.4ml once a day.

Ebony would be considered my most severe case of IC, and she is one of 2 of my piggies who recieve cartrophen injections, the improvement with this was almost immediate, she has barely any symptoms at all now, whereas before every pee and poo she would absolutely scream the place down, strain and lurch around. She is also able to enjoy a pretty normal diet on the injections too, whereas before I had to be very strict with trigger foods.
I would also speak to your vet about trying those injections, theyre pretty simple, my vet showed me how to do them and now I do them at home which takes away the stress of a monthly vet visit too.

Thank you for the link, will have a look.

Star doesn't make any pain noises, but when I watch her, when she's resting, sometimes she just looks uncomfortable. She doesn't squeak when passing urine or look like she's straining. She has quiet a large vaginal sore so I think that's the thing that causes most pain when passing urine. She passes all the time but small amounts and has been blood free for 2 weeks.

She's only a little pig, weighing 0.91 and the vets were not keen to up her metecam when I asked. Would she be safe to have 0.2 twice a day?

With her next scan, I could ask for that shot. What is it? I dont think I'd be able to inject her myself but it is once a month? Also, the joint stuff you give, what is it?

 

[Eriathwen]

I'm glad she just seems to be uncomfortable rather than painful! Unfortunately as I'm not a vet I cant really say yes or no to altering the dose as that'd be a bit of a legal issue, however my 720g Ebony is on 0.6ml of the dog metacam twice daily just to compare. She is also 6 years old and has various other health issues and this doesn't cause her any problems.

The joint supplement is a glucosamine supplement that contains some other stuff like vitamin C, MSM (which has anti inflammatory properties) omega 3 and some amino acids. It works in the same way as the cystease capsules just a little easier to use as it's already a liquid so no need for mixing etc. I prefer it as I've got 6 piggies on meds at the moment and it saves time as well as seeming to work a little better.

The shots start as once weekly and then go on to once a month for as long as deemed necessary, my 2 are on them for life now. Cartrophen basically helps protect the bladder lining, easing inflammation and helping to keep it comfortable.

 

[HEvan]

I'm glad she just seems to be uncomfortable rather than painful! Unfortunately as I'm not a vet I cant really say yes or no to altering the dose as that'd be a bit of a legal issue, however my 720g Ebony is on 0.6ml of the dog metacam twice daily just to compare. She is also 6 years old and has various other health issues and this doesn't cause her any problems.

The joint supplement is a glucosamine supplement that contains some other stuff like vitamin C, MSM (which has anti inflammatory properties) omega 3 and some amino acids. It works in the same way as the cystease capsules just a little easier to use as it's already a liquid so no need for mixing etc. I prefer it as I've got 6 piggies on meds at the moment and it saves time as well as seeming to work a little better.

The shots start as once weekly and then go on to once a month for as long as deemed necessary, my 2 are on them for life now. Cartrophen basically helps protect the bladder lining, easing inflammation and helping to keep it comfortable.

Wow, so it's a full time job with your piggies then.

I just hate not knowing how she's feeling. I will put up to 0.2 twice a day.
Would it be harmful to use that joint thing on top of the feliway?
I just want to do as much as safely possible to have some kind of improvement before her next scan.

Also, did any of your piggies get private part sores due to constant dripping and wetness? I'm cleaning it twice a day and just started putting flamazine on it. It's quiet large but looks healthy.

 

[Wiebke]

Wow, so it's a full time job with your piggies then.

I just hate not knowing how she's feeling. I will put up to 0.2 twice a day.
Would it be harmful to use that joint thing on top of the feliway?
I just want to do as much as safely possible to have some kind of improvement before her next scan.

Also, did any of your piggies get private part sores due to constant dripping and wetness? I'm cleaning it twice a day and just started putting flamazine on it. It's quiet large but looks healthy.

Hi
Please do not give two different glucosamine based products on spec at the same time; especially not with a mild case. The leaking should hopefully stop once you have got the IC under control; it will however not be instant and may take some weeks.

My own arthritic oldies are on twice daily 0.3 ml dog metacam (that is 0.9 ml each time with cat metacam).
I did go up to 0.4 ml twice daily with Breila (she was between 1000-1100g) during a bad acute flare - that would be 1.2 ml of cat metacam twice a day.