Dominance problems?

[Darlz]

Hi I'm after some advice. We adopted two male piggies, approx 18mths old, a couple of months ago - Peewee and Charlie. Peewee has been the dominant one from the start. A couple of weeks in they both started with dominant behaviours, mounting and chasing each other, it went on for a couple of hours and was getting quite ott and in the end we had to separate them for the night so my daughter could sleep (they're in her room). They were fine when reunited in the morning, but this behaviour keeps happening now. Peewee starts relentlessly chasing, rumbling, mounting, nipping at Charlie, and I've noticed he flings his bottom around to pee on him too. They've not got to the point of fighting yet, but Charlie is clearly not happy with the situation when it's going on - lots of running away and loud squeaking when being harassed.
When this starts up in the night my daughter separates them, but I don't know if doing this makes it worse. They've been split up about 5 or 6 times now.
I think I need to rearrange the cage, put in some different hides, house them with their own things in opposite corners to each other. At the moment they share a food bowl and water bottle.
Any advice on what to do with them?

 

[sport_billy]

Separating them is not a good idea and putting them back together each time is not a good idea and you are not allowing them to work on their bond. Move them out of the bedroom if needed because I know it can be loud.

Your boys are trying to sort out their hierarchy and it can be a difficult time

First off how big is the cage? The boys are hitting teenage years and are hormonal - never fun we have a great guide on fallouts and issues with boars here Boars: Teenage, Bullying, Fighting, Fall-outs And What Next? it is full of information gleaned over years of piggy keeping from a behavior expert on here that writes for the leading guinea pig magazine.
I would suggest using https://www.petsathome.com/shop/en/pets/wooden-playsticks-large as houses this gives both pigs an exit. If the cage has room get two food bowls. Get the largest cage you can for boars something 140cm is great for two, we use c&c for our piggies but luckily have the room to do so.

If blood gets drawn then you will need to separate permanently. Have read of the guide above and let us know how it is going please?

 

[Piggies&buns]

I agree. Please don’t keep separating them repeatedly as it can just further destabilise a bond that sounds already a little tense. A temporary separation can be done once to determine whether they still want to be together. A reintroduction needs to be tried on neutral territory (not in the cage) and at that point a decision made on their future based on what occurs.

How long had they been together before you got them? When piggies move to a new environment then they go into a period of reestablishing their relationship, this will happen even in piggies who have always lived together. This is normal and to be expected but it should calm down If they want to be together.

The loud squeaking may be submission squeaking which is actually a good thing. He accepts his position as underpig and is telling Peewee so. Normally the dominant would then ease off once they have asserted themselves. If he isn’t then you may be in a situation where they may not be able to remain together because their relationship isn’t quite working. If their dominance is within normal levels then you need to leave them to get on with it and sort themselves out. If things go beyond normal dominance or one piggy (the underpiggy) isn’t happy but not as far as a full on fight, then that is when a one time temporary separation to determine the functionality of their bond can then be tried.
You separate them for a couple of days to calm down, but watch the underpig - so in your case Charlie’s - reaction. If he perks up when he is away from PeeWee then that is your answer that he most likely isn’t happy to live with Peewee anymore. It’s not Peewee’s reaction you use - the dominant will always be upset by a separation.
You can try a neutral territory reintroduction (if no full on fights have occurred) if you are unc
ear so they can make the decision for Themselves.
Your piggies are adults now so aren’t experiencing teenage hormones, but even adults get hormones spikes for a couple of days. One of my two boys becomes a nightmare for a few days in spring time but it settles within days (no separating required).

How is Charlie’s weight? It can be best to switch from the routine weekly weight checks and instead do daily weight checks where you have concerns. An unhappy/bullied piggy may be losing weight due to being unhappy and potentially not being allowed to eat as much as they need to.

How big is their cage? A boar pair need a minimum of 150x60cm but it’s recommended they have 180x60cm (there are commercial cages of this size, so a c&c is best as they can be made as big as necessary). Boars are more territorial and need a lot of space. Too small of a cage can be a problem when it comes to boars and escalate tensions.
They also need at least two of every item so they never have to share anything - multiple beds, hay piles, bottles Etc. It can also be best to not use bowls at all and instead simply scatter feed veg and pellets around the cage - this stops the dominant food hogging, but it also provides enrichment for them and encourages foraging.
However, even a large cage and multiple of every item will not fix a dysfunctional relationship so you do need to determine whether they still want to be together.

Bonds In Trouble
A Comprehensive Guide to Guinea Pig Boars
Bonding and Interaction: Illustrated social behaviours and bonding dynamics
Dominance Behaviours In Guinea Pigs

 

[Darlz]

Thank you both. Their cage is approx 4ft X 4ft square, I was told they had been living together in their home before rescue. Charlie weighed quite a bit less than Peewee at first, but they've both been gaining weight. I have noticed that Charlie is more hesitant to approach the food bowl than Peewee.
It's it normal for the dominant behaviour to continue for hours? When it started the first time I think it was Charlie trying to assert himself but Peewee wasn't having any of it. Since then it is Peewee regularly hounding Charlie. Poor Charlie spends the whole time trying to get away from him, once he stands still and just lets Peewee mount him it settles down briefly, but as soon as he starts moving about Peewee is on him again. Food can distract them, or a new pile of hay. Although now Charlie tends to just try and hide in the hay.

I'll have a read of the links and see what we can do. Thanks again

 

[Siikibam]

If he’s letting himself be mounted then he is accepting his position as underpig. As long as he’s gaining weight weekly then it should be fine. But as said above, separating repeatedly isn’t good and could actually make things worse. You may have to rethink where you put them as it’s disturbing your daughters sleep. Hopefully they settle down soon.

 

[Piggies&buns]

It’s a good sized cage, then so not a space issue.
Siikibam is right in that if he lets himself be mounted it’s good ie he isn’t fighting back and dominance will happen but it shouldnt be so constant and so intense that one cannot even move without the other starting. They should both be free to move and eat and generally living harmoniously - although they may never share hideys, bowls etc (Mine dont).
If Charlie doesn’t seem happy and is trying to hide a lot, then I would be concerned things are not entirely good between them.
Periods of dominance will happen - my two are worst in spring time but otherwise they are both happy and freely move about, popcorn, play etc with no problems.

 

[Darlz]

Ok, I've cleaned them out - again (they seem to pee a huge amount!) and had a failed trip to pick up those stick houses from Pets at Home, always seem to be out of stock if I'm after something. They now have duplicates of bowls, bottles, hay holders and I've made hideys from a cardboard box with two ways in/out. They have a corner each with their own stuff.
They seem to be happy with the new arrangement, they've been quite laid back today, no funny business so far, apart from I spotted Peewee peeing on Charlie when passing him. Charlie is long haired too so he's getting a bit smelly.
I'll keep an eye on their behaviours and weight, I hope Peewee doesn't become a bully. Maybe it's just that spring feeling.
Thanks for all the help