Chronic pain + Change in appetite

[piggl]

I just want to preface this by saying I am aware that the advice given on this forum does not replace that of a qualified vet/a vet appointment, but I am also aware that there are many members on here with loads of experience/understanding for things like this, I am hoping someone will have a similar experience or be able to shed some light on what I am going through with my piggy right now.

I have a 5 year old boar Winston who a couple months ago was taken to the vet for change of humour/signs of pain. The vet diagnosed minor hardening in his left knee and mentioned that the constant piggy backing of his 4 month old friend certainly wasn't helping. We were given Loxicom to give him for a week and the need to try and reduce the amount of "piggy backing" going on.
I made the decision to separate them permanently as I couldn't leave Winston in that situation knowing the effect it was having on him. So now Winston lives in the bottom of a bluebell hutch a couple ft away from my pair of young boys. They have a run each that they each go in throughout the day, which gives Winston the chance to have face to face interaction with them for around 10-12 hours a day.

Back to now, last week me and my family were going on holiday for the week and we had only booked one pen at the boarders pre-separation so instead Winston went up to my grannies and lived on his own for a week. When he came back he weighed considerably less, had a reduced appetite and was acting strange (increased wood biting and fluffing of fur).
On the 9th of October he weighed 1175g, and (two weeks later) on the 30th he weighed 1092g, this made me concerned and I noticed he had on and off smaller poops and a reduced interest in veg and nuggets. I gave him around 5ml of nugget support feed (this is all he would take) and the next day (31st) he weighed 1077g, I then phoned the vets and got an appointment for 5:15pm.

We went to the vets and she checked his teeth, stomach and hips. She noticed nothing out of the normal apart from the same stiffness and discomfort when the hind limbs were moved. She sort of ignored my concerns about his weight loss as he weighed 1.1kg on both of his visits (on her scales), but we decided to start him again on the loxicom (likely long term) and asked me to phone back in a week if he continues to lose more weight.
He got his first dose of loxicom at 6pm (1.5mg, 0.3ml once a day) and I put him back in his run. I gave them their dinner, a couple hours before I clean up runs and close them up for the night, and when I came back he only ate around 75% of his dinner. Once everything was tidied I put the remaining veg in his cage and split his nuggets into two bowls so I could see how much he was eating.

This morning he had finished the rest of his veg and ate about half of his normal portion of nuggets (which is around 15-20 nuggets on a normal day, but he used to get this twice a day). I do believe I was feeding too much nuggets, as I gave this amount twice a day, so around double the portion they should be getting.
He also managed to maintain his weight on his own, at 1079g, with no support feeding from me which is a good sign.

So what I am wondering is, could have his ongoing pain from arthritis reduced the amount of hay he was intaking? I am also thinking that maybe his love for nuggets has reduced or he's just not as interested in them anymore, which would also factor into his weight loss as I was overfeeding before and was then eating around 25% of his previous portion.
I am going to continue daily weighing and I hope to see more progress/increase in his weight now that he is on painkillers daily. I am also aware that meds are best given twice a day due to their metabolisms so I am likely going to ask about this when I catch up with the vet next week.

Thanks for reading, if you made it through - Any advice/replies are greatly appreciated

 

[Wiebke]

Hi

Please give the loxicom time to build up; it needs that with arthritis and doesn't work as an instant quick fix.
You may want to consider whether it may work better giving half every 12 hours. My own arthritis piggies are on long term double the dosage of rheumocam (0.3 ml twice daily dog strength) so you have got quite some leeway to adjust upwards as needed.

What I have found very effective is Johnson's 4 joints dog liquid supplement (available in pet shops or online) to minimise the effect of the arthritis and improve mobility and pain by building up a layer of glucosamine around the worn out joint. Again, this is not a quick fix and will take several weeks to build up. 0.4 ml once daily is the standard dosage for an average sized piggy.

Please accept that any pain in the body usually hits the hay intake first but can then also impact on pellets and veg. Single piggies without the 'I want what you have' stimulation are at a greater risk of becoming picky eaters. The pain from arthritis on the hind legs and lower spine can sometimes also radiate into the lower gut and even impact on the urinary tract. With the metacam being stopped after the separation and the added stress from being away on his own, Winston's arthritis has obviously progressed one level up.

Please give Winston time for the medication to kick in fully for a sustained long term maintenance dose and also keep in mind that arthritis is not reversible; it is a chronic progressive health issue that you can only ever manage. It usually starts at the lower end and then gradually worsens. In the very frail and elderly it can speed up and take over.

Here are our care tips for guinea pigs with decreased mobility, which also apply to guinea pigs with arthritis in the spine and/or legs in a gradually increasing degree: Looking After Guinea Pigs With Limited or No Mobility

Caring for Older Piggies and Facing the End - A practical and supportive information collection

 

[piggl]

Hi

Please give the loxicom time to build up; it needs that with arthritis and doesn't work as an instant quick fix.
You may want to consider whether it may work better giving half every 12 hours. My own arthritis piggies are on long term double the dosage of rheumocam (0.3 ml twice daily) so you have got quite some leeway to adjust upwards.

What I have found very effective is Johnson's 4 joints dog liquid supplement (available in pet shops or online) to minimise the effect of the arthritis and improve mobility and pain by building up a layer of glucosamine around the worn out joint. Again. this is not a quick fix and will take several weeks to build up. 0.4 ml once daily is the standard dosage for an average sized piggy.

Please accept that any pain in the body usually hits the hay intake first but can then also impact on pellets and veg. Single piggies without the 'I want what you have' stimulation are at a greater risk of becoming picky eaters. The pain from arthritis on the hind legs and lower spine can sometimes also radiate into the lower gut and even impact on the urinary tract. With the metacam being stopped after the separation and the added stress from being away on his own, Winston's arthritis has obviously progressed one level up.

Please give Winston time for the medication to kick in fully for a sustained long term maintenance dose and also keep in mind that arthritis is not reversible; it is a chronic progressive health issue that you can only ever manage. It usually starts at the lower end and then gradually worsens. In the very frail and elderly it can speed up and take over.

Here are our care tips for guinea pigs with decreased mobility, which also apply to guinea pigs with arthritis in the spine and/or legs in a gradually increasing degree: Looking After Guinea Pigs With Limited or No Mobility

Caring for Older Piggies and Facing the End - A practical and supportive information collection

Thank you for your detailed reply!

Ill keep all that in mind moving forward and I will have to look into the 4 joints supplement. Would you recommend starting this asap? (the supplement)
Would I also be best to talk to the vet before splitting the dose? I am not sure if .15ml would be enough to ease the pain, when split.

 

[Wiebke]

Thank you for your detailed reply!

Ill keep all that in mind moving forward and I will have to look into the 4 joints supplement. Would you recommend starting this asap? (the supplement)
Would I also be best to talk to the vet before splitting the dose? I am not sure if .15ml would be enough to ease the pain, when split.

Yes, please start the glucosamine support as soon as arthritis is diagnosed. As it takes some time to build up in the joints, the sooner you start the better. Don't rush out but if you can detour via a pet shop on the way home, then that would be convenient.

 

[piggl]

Yes, please start the glucosamine support as soon as arthritis is diagnosed. As it takes some time to build up in the joints, the sooner you start the better. Don't rush out but if you can detour via a pet shop on the way home, then that would be convenient.

Is this it? Amazon.co.uk

Just want to make sure I don’t get the wrong one, especially as it says extra strength

 

[Wiebke]

Is this it? Amazon.co.uk

Just want to make sure I don’t get the wrong one, especially as it says extra strength

Yes, that is it. I currently have three of my own piggies on it. It is more effective than the Oxbow joint supplement.
The dosage takes care of ensuring that the glucosamine level is right.

 

[Qualcast&Flymo]

It might be worth getting the 4joints from one of the online veterinary suppliers, it may be cheaper. The same thing is about £6 at VetUK. You can also get Metacam in larger quantities much cheaper from them, which I found definitely worth doing when I had both Winifred and Squeaks on dog metacam long term.

 

[piggl]

It might be worth getting the 4joints from one of the online veterinary suppliers, it may be cheaper. The same thing is about £6 at VetUK. You can also get Metacam in larger quantities much cheaper from them, which I found definitely worth doing when I had both Winifred and Squeaks on dog metacam long term.

Great, thank you!

She did mention giving us a bigger bottle if the loxicom has a positive effect on him this week, which I already know it will so will be getting the bigger bottle next time x

 

[piggl]

How long does one bottle last? I’ve had a look on vetUK and it is cheaper but delivery’s about £3 so I am wondering if it’s worth getting multiple at once?

 

[Qualcast&Flymo]

If you mean the 4joints, given a dose of 0.4ml per day, a bottle of 100ml would last you over 6 months, 8 months if no losses due to spillage etc. So possibly not worth buying 2 at once at present.
But if Winston does go on to loxicom/metacam long term, the price difference there of the dog version in larger bottles is much more noticeable - I recall that a 30ml bottle of dog metacam from my vet worked out at about £1 per ml, whereas you can get a 100ml bottle from vetUK for <£17 (plus the vet's prescription fee). I added a bottle of 4joints to my order when getting the metacam for my old boy Squeaks which saved on delivery charges.

 

[piggl]

If you mean the 4joints, given a dose of 0.4ml per day, a bottle of 100ml would last you over 6 months, 8 months if no losses due to spillage etc. So possibly not worth buying 2 at once at present.
But if Winston does go on to loxicom/metacam long term, the price difference there of the dog version in larger bottles is much more noticeable - I recall that a 30ml bottle of dog metacam from my vet worked out at about £1 per ml, whereas you can get a 100ml bottle from vetUK for <£17 (plus the vet's prescription fee). I added a bottle of 4joints to my order when getting the metacam for my old boy Squeaks which saved on delivery charges.

Sorry this might be a strange question but how do you go about telling your vet you are getting it from someplace else? We've been at this vets for years and I feel like I will offend them by getting it someplace else.

 

[poggle]

I think it's pretty normal to get the prescription elsewhere now... I've not had a vet get salty that I'm not buying non-emergency meds from them, anyway.

Our dog is on long term medication and the vets are quite happy to charge for the prescription itself (now upgraded to a full consultation every quarter) and send us on our way. I've even had some recommend buying elsewhere because they know the price difference is significant.

Edit to add: It's just a standard question in the consultation for us. Might be worth a chat with their admin team if you're worried?

 

[Wiebke]

Sorry this might be a strange question but how do you go about telling your vet you are getting it from someplace else? We've been at this vets for years and I feel like I will offend them by getting it someplace else.

Metacam like all painkillers is prescription-only. You will need that prescription and will have to pay a fee for it.

It will still work out cheaper in the long term. I am going through a 100 ml bottle of rheumocam (UK dog metacam brand, 1.5 mg/ml concentration) every 4-6 months with my several own arthritic oldies so I am well within the 6 months limit of use of the open bottle.

 

[Qualcast&Flymo]

Sorry this might be a strange question but how do you go about telling your vet you are getting it from someplace else? We've been at this vets for years and I feel like I will offend them by getting it someplace else.

I had the same feeling, but I think they must be used to it, they must know that their prices are higher as they have more overheads. I said to my vet that i wanted to get it online because it would cost so much as a longterm medicine, I would carry on getting short term meds from them.
When using metacam longterm, the vet will want to see your piggy every six months at least for a check up. The other thing I found was that my vet only supplied 10ml or 30ml bottles, so with 2 piggies on it, the biggest bottle the vet could give only lasted one month.