Cavie bullying

[AndreaFryer]

Hiya
I’m Andrea and new to this thread. We got 2 baby cavies end of January this year. They have being getting along fine apart from the odd squabble. A few weeks ago I came downstairs to find Cookie sat on top of his wooden den scared to come down. I left him be and all was fine the next day.
Few weeks later I then found Cookie had being bitten on his mouth by Inky. It was only a small wound but he was scared but again they were then fine together.
Cookie has now started to Bully Inky. He just won’t leave him alone and keeps pulling his fur out.
I’ve separated them so there in a c&c cage 2x5 that’s split down the middle. They can see each other but Inky is still scared if cookies out! He walks backwards back to his bed chattering his teeth.
I did read I should let them sort it out but I feel so sorry for Inky.
Question is should I just leave them separate or try bond them together again?
Thanks

 

[Piggies&buns]

I’m sorry to say that If an injury has been caused then they need to be permanently separated. It doesn’t sound like they have a functional bond if they are fighting and causing injuries.

You only leave them to sort it out while it is dominance, once injuries and fights have occurred or it has gone into bullying, then they need to be separated.

A split 2x5 doesn’t give them each half enough space though so if they have a broken bond and can’t live together anymore, then their cage will need to be expanded so each half is big enough

These guides may help you.

Boars: Teenage, Bullying, Fighting, Fall-outs And What Next?
Moody guinea pigs: Depression, Bullying, Aggression, Stress, Fear and Antisocial Behaviour
A Comprehensive Guide to Guinea Pig Boars
Dominance Behaviours In Guinea Pigs

 

[AndreaFryer]

Thankyou, I did fear this would be the advice.
Cookie seems to actively look for Inky to scare him into a corner.
Am I best to just leave them both separate with no friend or should I try pair Inky (the quieter one) with another cavie.

 

[Piggies&buns]

You can pair them both with another guinea pig. Just because they haven’t got on with each other doesn’t mean that cookie won’t get on with a different piggy.

Character compatibility and mutual liking is key to a successful bond so finding a compatible friend is best and safest done with the help of a rescue centre where possible. They will ensure your boys choose their own new friend which will result in a more stable bond. Any pet shop bought piggies are an unknown quantity so there is no guarantee of a successful bond if you buy another one for each piggy.

 

[AndreaFryer]

Oh Thankyou I will look into a rescue centre.

 

[Piggies&buns]

if you’re in the uk then this is our Rescue Locator
Many won’t be doing boar dating at present with the current restrictions but do get your name on their lists for help. Bonding teen boars can be tricky but finding the right piggy friend is key!

 

[AndreaFryer]

Yes I will do. They do have very different personalities. Ones always zooming about pushing his ball and the other seems to like to just chill.
Gutted though cos don’t know how I’ll fit them all in my house now although I’m wondering if I could stack one c&c cage on top of the other x Thankyou

 

[Piggies&buns]

Yes c&c cages do stack, so you won’t need any more floor space Each pair of boars needs a 2x5 cage

 

[Siikibam]

Sorry your boys don’t get on. It’s nothing you did so don’t worry about that. They just prefer to live next to each other If you have an L shape you could expand round it. But for now you can’t stack the cages as they still need that daily interaction.

We’d love to see pictures of your boys

 

[Wiebke]

Hiya
I’m Andrea and new to this thread. We got 2 baby cavies end of January this year. They have being getting along fine apart from the odd squabble. A few weeks ago I came downstairs to find Cookie sat on top of his wooden den scared to come down. I left him be and all was fine the next day.
Few weeks later I then found Cookie had being bitten on his mouth by Inky. It was only a small wound but he was scared but again they were then fine together.
Cookie has now started to Bully Inky. He just won’t leave him alone and keeps pulling his fur out.
I’ve separated them so there in a c&c cage 2x5 that’s split down the middle. They can see each other but Inky is still scared if cookies out! He walks backwards back to his bed chattering his teeth.
I did read I should let them sort it out but I feel so sorry for Inky.
Question is should I just leave them separate or try bond them together again?
Thanks

Hi!

Personally I would separate. You don't have to wait until there are serious bites if a bond is clearly heading in the wrong direction.
If Cookie is staying well away from Inky and if there are bites whenever the two meet, then you have a pretty clear answer that you are dealing with a dysfunctional pair of teenagers.
The advice is there because there are plenty of anxious new owners that will separate at the first sign of dominance and because it is often not easy for inexperienced owners to judge whether a bond is still viable or not.

Please take the time to read these guides here; they should make it easier for you to judge what is going on and take you through your options for the future:
Boars: Teenage, Bullying, Fighting, Fall-outs And What Next?
Moody guinea pigs: Depression, Bullying, Aggression, Stress, Fear and Antisocial Behaviour

 

[AndreaFryer]

Sorry your boys don’t get on. It’s nothing you did so don’t worry about that. They just prefer to live next to each other If you have an L shape you could expand round it. But for now you can’t stack the cages as they still need that daily interaction.

We’d love to see pictures of your boys

 

[AndreaFryer]

Not the best picks I’m afraid.
Cookie is the brown one and Inky is the black one.

 

[AndreaFryer]

Hiya guys
So, following from my post a few days ago my 8 month old boars have being separated side by side. I havnt particularly noticed any change in their behaviours except discovering which one poos all over and which is more tidy they keep smelling each other through the cage. Would it be at all possible to give them another chance together in a neautral area then continue to keep them in a 6x2 c&c cage with there own hay stack ect. I made mistakes before such a one of everything so they had to share.
Am I being niaeve trying to rebond them or should I keep them separate?

 

[Piggies&buns]

Could you remind us of the situation that caused you to separate please? Was it a full on blood drawing fight? If it was, then I would not recommend attempting to reintroduce them as it is likely to just cause more fights. Such fights generally occur because of being incompatible characters, and a trial separation won’t change that

 

[AndreaFryer]

My initial reason for separating them was because Cookie was constantly chasing inky when he came out of his den. At one point inky was hiding behind his bed and Cookie was making those rumbling sounds over him and chattering his teeth.
But, about 3 months ago Inky did bite Cookie as I saw a bite near his nose like a little puncture when I got up and hair in the cage.
Although after that they were fine.
I did used to think Inky was the boss (he’s the bigger one) but I think Cookie was maybe taking top spot.
Inky is very quiet and Cookie does zooms and jumps ect so they are very different.

 

[Piggies&buns]

Yes, I remember now you’ve said their names!
As I’ve said, if a blood drawing fight has occurred they more often than not won’t go back together.
In any successful relationship there is a dominant and a submissive. If a takeover occurs, then if the dominant isn’t happy about it then there will be fights again.
Again if bullying is occurring then usually the bullied piggy is much happier to be away - they perk up, eat more, happier to be out of houses rather than hiding etc
If it was just a hormones/dominance and things got too tense, then a couple of days to calm down and a reintroduction can work. It is all down the piggies though! If you were to attempt a reintroduction, then keep a very close watch, be on the look out for signs of failure and in the days/weeks after reintroduction

 

[AndreaFryer]

Oh yes I won’t leave them. I guess I’d soon know. I’ve personally never seen them actually fight. I would have booked to take them to the rescue centre for bonding, but of course there closed at the moment.
When I do it should I just move the c&c cage onto the kitchen floor so they have none of there own things except a few hiddies with exits both ends hay and their water bottles and see how they go? If Cookie immediately starts his teeth chattering and inky runs away would you assume there not compatable?

 

[Siikibam]

It has to be neutral area with no smells of them. No hides, just a pile of hay in the middle. You have to just watch them rather than separating as soon as chasing starts. Look out for submissive behaviour - letting themselves be mounted or humped, squeaking in submission. I’ll link the bonding threads for you to have a look through.
A Comprehensive Guide to Guinea Pig Boars
Boars: Teenage, Bullying, Fighting, Fall-outs And What Next?
Dominance Behaviours In Guinea Pigs
Bonds In Trouble

 

[AndreaFryer]

thankyou I’ll have a read and I’m going to give it a go x

 

[Siikibam]

Good luck and let us know how it goes.

 

[Wiebke]

I have merged your threads. Please always keep an ongoing case to the same thread so we can refer back. We jump between lots of different threads in a day on this busy forum, so can't keep all the details of everybody in our mind all the time. Unlike social media we can keep information together and support you therefore much better through the whole time.

Please take the time to carefully read the guide links @Siikibam 's post above. They contain all the tips and information you need, but that we cannot condense into just two short sentences. Many problems don't have an quick straight forward magic wand solution; what may suit one case can be exactly wrong for the next one. It is very often a matter of you working through the options and figuring out what goes for your boys.

All the best!

 

[AndreaFryer]

Well I tried to rebond them today.
They first ignored each other then Cookie started to follow Inky which let to inky running away and hay flying everywhere. They stopped and stared at each other and Inkys fur stood on edge all around his neck and he was yawning and teeth chattering. I could sense that Inky especially was not happy (inky is the one that I felt was being bullied)
So I’ve separated them again for good and they seem happy. Inky even closes his eyes now and lays on his side which he never did before.
I’m not sure wether to keep them side by side because they are fine with the divider and sniff each other’s nose or wether to risk finding them a buddy each one rescue centre is open?
Thank you to all how advised me what to do x

 

[Siikibam]

I’m sorry it didn’t work out. Keep them side by side for now until you can bond them with another piggy, if that’s what you decide to do.

 

[AndreaFryer]

I permanently separated my guinea pigs a few days ago. They are now side by side in 3x2 c&c cage each.
Cookie who is normally very squeaky and bouncing about has become very quiet. He didn’t even squeak for his veg this morning. I picked him up. and still no noise from him.
Could he be upset he’s no buddy?
Inky seems the same as he’s always being very quiet anyway. They are both eating and drinking as normal.

 

[Little Ones]

How come you chose to separate? Dominance behaviour in guinea pigs is very normal and doesn’t call for separation unless blood is drawn during a fight

 

[AndreaFryer]

Hiya well one got his nose bit a few months ago and was balancing on top of his hit but later that day they seemed fine. Same guinea seems to have a bit of his ear missing.
I have never actually whitnessed them fighting but then the other pig was just hiding in the loft area and wouldn’t move. If he came out the other would chase him back him and block him.
I did try to rebond them but I bottled it because they immediately were chattering and hair standing up.
The pig that got bitten seemed to want to be the new boss and he’s the one that’s now very quiet. I have requested to have them rebounded with new pigs at rescue once a place is available and plan to have stacked 2x5 cages. Don’t think my inexperience has helped and wish I knew this support group existed prior to buying x

 

[Little Ones]

Here, first let me link some helpful threads for you to read:
Behaviour and bonding dynamics
Dominance behaviour in guinea pigs
Boars: Teenage, bullying, fall outs and what next

Guinea pigs will always show some sort of dominance behaviour no matter how well they get on or how long they’ve been together. First guinea pigs need to decide who is control between the two and who controls the environment they’re in. Any time your pigs change environments together there will be dominance. If one pig gets quite noticeably sick, there will be dominance as the hierarchy could shift. Every now and then there will be dominance to reaffirm who is in charge. These scuffs on your pig, or seeing the acts of dominance can look quite worrying but they are all normal in the guinea pig world. They don’t communicate like people do.
My pigs sometimes have gotten scuffs on their nose from a dominance battle, they absolutely love each other though! Don’t worry about ear eating, it generally means ‘I love and accept you, but I’m in charge!’, so isn’t something to worry about.
It seems like your pigs are just establishing dominance. If you find having a loft doesn’t work for you, then it does absolutely no harm at all to remove it. The dominant pig can sometimes block exits for the submissive pig - which is why we advocate for hideys with two exits. This is normal and is just guinea pig language. Like I said, if you find it more helpful to remove it then it’s okay. Guinea pigs are roamers which means higher levels make no difference to them, it’s all about ground space.
As you’ve separated them, you’ll have to reintroduce them on neutral ground and hope they still get along now that you’ve disrupted the bond. Once you start the bonding, you have to see it through to the end and not stop and then restart. If you read the guides on how to bond guinea pigs you’ll know what to do. Make sure you give the pigs a lot of space to get away from each other along with some hay. There will always be some dominance behaviour, but don’t back down. If a fight gets particularly nasty - I don’t mean chattering, chasing, humping, but rather full blown attacking each other then stop the bonding, or if blood is drawn. In which case it’s best to wear some oven gloves and separate them or throw a towel over them.
Having a rescue bond them via dating with other pigs will be a way for this to properly work out. But it may be worth trying to bond them again and doing it properly. Give them a chance to get to know each other, by what you said about how they were before I definitely wouldn’t have separated.
Don’t worry, we were all very inexperienced at some point!

Also: if you got your pigs for a pet shop, they’re likely to be starting their teenage phase which is why I linked in that thread. At this point, dominance is at its highest and this can be particularly difficult when boys are involved and persevering is the best thing to do!

 

[Piggies&buns]

It may have been better to have kept this to your other thread on this issue. You did the right thing in separating them when considering the comments and information you provided and received on your other thread.

They need to get used to a new way of living and that may be why he is quiet. They still are able to interact through the bars so that will stave off loneliness. Having a new friend for each will of course help for the longer term

 

[AndreaFryer]

Thankyou I think I did bottle it due to my Inexperience.
I might actually try again. I just thought cos one ran off and the other was chattering at him they disliked each other. Maybe this is why Cookie seems so sad now.

 

[AndreaFryer]

It may have been better to have kept this to your other thread on this issue. You did the right thing in separating them when considering the comments and information you provided and received on your other thread.

They need to get used to a new way of living and that may be why he is quiet. They still are able to interact through the bars so that will stave off loneliness. Having a new friend for each will of course help for the longer term

Yes Thankyou. I do wish I’d have found this thread prior to buying.