Can re-bonding ever work?

[Bettyb26]

Hi all,

I have posted before about my two teenage boars who were rescues (I think we are their third owners) and who promptly fell out after we brought them home. I think a big part of the reason they fell out was due to a lack of space as we were sadly very ill informed about the size of habitat needed for them. A few months on and they are living in their own spaces next to each other so they can still interact. Eugene seems more than happy on his own but it’s becoming clear that Eddie is not coping and I really do not know what to do. I have been in touch with a local rescue who do bonding and they told me that if we were to get Eddie a friend, eugene would need one too and that once they are bonded the two pairs would need to be living away from each other so as not to disturb the bonds. I don’t really want 4 Guinea-pigs and we don’t have the space for bigger cages or placing them across a room for each other. The other option is to rehome one of our boys and get a friend for the other but we love them so much I don’t think we could do it.
In an ideal world we would be able to get the boys to like each other again and get one big c&c which they could both wander in and out of as they please (they have the run of our front room and kitchen but have to go out in shifts because they don’t get on) - would this ever be possible? Eddie is desperate for eugene’s attention but eugene barely looks at him and there is some teeth chattering through the bars from time to time. Is it worth giving it a go and would a bonding service be able to help?

Thank you xx

 

[Piggies&buns]

It’s not the case that they would definitely both need new friends, it’s also not the case that two pairs would definitely need to be housed away from each other. There are many owners on here who keep pairs perfectly happily side by side.
You can get just the one who is struggling alone a new friend and then keep the a single alongside for interaction through the bars with the pair.

However, whether a reintroduction between Eugene and Eddie would ever work is entirely down to the piggies.
Most fall outs are caused by a character clash (and yes while lack of space can contribute, if may never have been the main reason) and unfortunately there is nothing you can do about that - they are not likely to change their minds about each other and suddenly decide to be friends.
If there was a full on, injury causing fight, then we don’t recommend reintroduction.

If you wish to try a reintroduction, then ensure you do so on neutral territory and be prepared to step in and separate if things turn between them.

 

[Piggies&buns]

To add and having looked back on your previous posts about their fall out -

Interactions through the bars are not really indicative of the likelihood of success or failure of a reintroduction. They are now both in their own territories and as such will be marking and defending their own territories.
However, you did mention that you had had to separate because blood was drawn. In that case, it would make reintroduction much less likely to work.

What size cages are they in now? You mentioned about them being 120s and you’d managed to get them side by side (or L shaped) but you were considering a 2x4 each.
If you were to get one of them (or indeed should you decide to get them both) a new friend, then the recommended cage size for a boar pair is a 2x5. A 2x4 is the minimum for a boar pair - some may be ok with that, some may still find it a bit tight.

 

[Bettyb26]

It’s not the case that they would definitely both need new friends, it’s also not the case that two pairs would definitely need to be housed away from each other. There are many owners on here who keep pairs perfectly happily side by side.
You can get just the one who is struggling alone a new friend and then keep the a single alongside for interaction through the bars with the pair.

However, whether a reintroduction between Eugene and Eddie would ever work is entirely down to the piggies.
Most fall outs are caused by a character clash (and yes while lack of space can contribute, if may never have been the main reason) and unfortunately there is nothing you can do about that - they are not likely to change their minds about each other and suddenly decide to be friends.
If there was a full on, injury causing fight, then we don’t recommend reintroduction.

If you wish to try a reintroduction, then ensure you do so on neutral territory and be prepared to step in and separate if things turn between them.

Thanks for the advice. I would be happy to just get a friend for Eddie but he is currently in a 120x60 ferplast cage and the rescue have said that their minimum requirement for 2 pigs is double that. We don’t have the space for that and then Eugene to be next to it so they’d have to be stacked but then Eugene wouldn’t be able to see the others. I really don’t know what to do

 

[Bettyb26]

To add and having looked back on your previous posts about their fall out -

Interactions through the bars are not really indicative of the likelihood of success or failure of a reintroduction. They are now both in their own territories and as such will be marking and defending their own territories.
However, you did mention that you had had to separate because blood was drawn. In that case, it would make reintroduction much less likely to work.

What size cages are they in now? You mentioned about them being 120s and you’d managed to get them side by side (or L shaped) but you were considering a 2x4 each.
If you were to get one of them (or indeed should you decide to get them both) a new friend, then the recommended cage size for a boar pair is a 2x5. A 2x4 is the minimum for a boar pair - some may be ok with that, some may still find it a bit tight.

So they are each in a 120x60cm which are side by side lengthways. We don’t have space for anything bigger than that unless they were stacked so in that case we’d have to get 2 extra piggies to avoid anyone being on their own. Eugene seems really happy on his own and he was the aggressor in their relationship so I wouldn’t want to upset him/ end up with more broken bonds by getting him a friend if he doesn’t want one

 

[Claire W]

I am sorry for the dilemma you are in Would you consider having both boars neutered and getting them a lady friend each? Or if Eugene is happy by himself, just Eddie? The minimum space needed for a boar and a sow pair is 120cm by 60cm although obviously bigger is always better. That way, you could still have the cages next to each other and Eugene could still interact through the bars x

 

[Piggies&buns]

So they are each in a 120x60cm which are side by side lengthways. We don’t have space for anything bigger than that unless they were stacked so in that case we’d have to get 2 extra piggies to avoid anyone being on their own. Eugene seems really happy on his own and he was the aggressor in their relationship so I wouldn’t want to upset him/ end up with more broken bonds by getting him a friend if he doesn’t want one

It’s not a case that he doesn’t want a friend, its that he doesn’t want Eddie as his friend

 

[Bettyb26]

So they are each in a 120x60cm which are side by side lengthways. We don’t have space for anything bigger than that unless they were stacked so in that case we’d have to get 2 extra piggies to avoid anyone being on their own. Eugene seems really happy on his own and he was the aggressor in their relationship so I wouldn’t want to upset him/ end up with more broken bonds by getting him a friend if he doesn’t want

It’s not a case that he doesn’t want a friend, its that he doesn’t want Eddie as his friend

Yeah of course but I would just be worried about him falling out with another pig eventually because he is very boisterous and likes to do his own thing. I obviously know Guinea pigs need to live with others but at the moment I’m only worried about Eddie

 

[Bettyb26]

I am sorry for the dilemma you are in Would you consider having both boars neutered and getting them a lady friend each? Or if Eugene is happy by himself, just Eddie? The minimum space needed for a boar and a sow pair is 120cm by 60cm although obviously bigger is always better. That way, you could still have the cages next to each other and Eugene could still interact through the bars x

We have thought about it, I would feel bad putting them through it but I guess it’d be better long term. Would it be alright having Eddie and a lady next to Eugene if Eugene wasn’t neutered? Would he be aggressive or anything

 

[Piggies&buns]

The rescue can have their own requirements for cage size and obviously you would need to comply to be able to rehome from them. Is there any other rescue you can try?

120x60cm is the RSPCA minimum welfare for two pigs (or minimum for a single piggy such as in your situation) but the reality is that’s only a minimum for two sows. Two boars would struggle a lot in a 120.
150x60 (a 2x4 c&c) is the minimum for two boars but 180x60 (a 2x5 c&c) is recommended.

it’s absolutely fine that Eddie is your priority given he is the one who doesn’t seem happy alone.

having them both neutered and finding a sow for them each - the cage size for a neutered boar/sow pair is 150x60 or a 2x4 c&c. As you know stacking would be an option then.
Also, a boar/sow bond tends to be much more stable for the long term. Acceptance, mutual liking and compatibility still needs to be there initially, but they are less likely to fall out down the line.

 

[Piggies&buns]

We have thought about it, I would feel bad putting them through it but I guess it’d be better long term. Would it be alright having Eddie and a lady next to Eugene if Eugene wasn’t neutered? Would he be aggressive or anything

He wouldn’t be aggressive as he wouldn’t have anybody to be aggressive with. He would likely be very interested in her though.
As he is in a ferplast cage, then they are secure, but you would need to be sure that, should you change cages to a c&c, that his cage would have to be lidded as he would be very determined to escape and get in with her.

It would also mean that should you decide to get Eugene a friend in the future, he would not be able to be bonded with a boar - he would also need to be neutered and have a sow as you can’t keep a boar pair in the presence of a sow (it would cause a boar pair to fall out)

 

[Bettyb26]

He wouldn’t be aggressive as he wouldn’t have anybody to be aggressive with. He would likely be very interested in her though.
As he is in a ferplast cage, then they are secure, but you would need to be sure that, should you change cages to a c&c, that his cage would have to be lidded as he would be very determined to escape and get in with her.

It would also mean that should you decide to get Eugene a friend in the future, he would not be able to be bonded with a boar - he would also need to be neutered and have a sow as you can’t keep a boar pair in the presence of a sow (it would cause a boar pair to fall out)

Yeah sorry that’s what I meant by aggressive, like would he be interested in her. I think we will consider the neutering option as it seems better long term. Thank you for your advice it is really appreciated

 

[Piggies&buns]

Yeah sorry that’s what I meant by aggressive, like would he be interested in her. I think we will consider the neutering option as it seems better long term. Thank you for your advice it is really appreciated

Introducing a sow into a boar room will always produce a strong reaction particularly from boars who are not used to sow pheromones (but doing so can be a huge problem where there are bonded boars)

Neutering does open your options (don’t forget the six week post op wait to become infertile) for Eddie and the likelihood of a long term stable bond.
Eugene will be absolutely fine being a neighbour to them for the long term (with of course the option of stacking, neutering and bonding him with a lady should you decide to take that route in the future)

Did the rescue say that their cage requirements are still double for a boar/sow pair, or when they said double were they referring to a boar pair only?

 

[Bettyb26]

Introducing a sow into a boar room will always produce a strong reaction particularly from boars who are not used to sow pheromones (but doing so can be a huge problem where there are bonded boars)

Neutering does open your options (don’t forget the six week post op wait to become infertile) for Eddie and the likelihood of a long term stable bond.
Eugene will be absolutely fine being a neighbour to them for the long term (with of course the option of stacking, neutering and bonding him with a lady should you decide to take that route in the future)

Did the rescue say that their cage requirements are still double for a boar/sow pair, or when they said double were they referring to a boar pair only?

They didn’t really specify whether their requirements were for boar/boar or boar/sow, they had a lot of information on their website which wasn’t super clear to read so I told them what our current setup is, and they said that it was equivalent to 8sqft and their requirement is 16. If we go with the neutering option i will look around for other places to adopt a sow as this place doesn’t seem to have sows for adoption very regularly, it’s just the most convenient one for us to get to.
Also going back to the 6 week wait after being neutered, this rescue says 4 weeks on their website and I’ve just read 3 weeks elsewhere?! I hate the internet sometimes it’s so confusing

 

[Piggies&buns]

They didn’t really specify whether their requirements were for boar/boar or boar/sow, they had a lot of information on their website which wasn’t super clear to read so I told them what our current setup is, and they said that it was equivalent to 8sqft and their requirement is 16. If we go with the neutering option i will look around for other places to adopt a sow as this place doesn’t seem to have sows for adoption very regularly, it’s just the most convenient one for us to get to.
Also going back to the 6 week wait after being neutered, this rescue says 4 weeks on their website and I’ve just read 3 weeks elsewhere?! I hate the internet sometimes it’s so confusing

Yes a 120x60 is 8 square feet which is RSPCA minimum.
16 sq ft is absolutely lovely for two piggies and of course the more the better but is well beyond what most would require for two.
(8 sq ft minimum for two sows or a neutered boar/sow pair, 10 sq ft recommended
10 sq ft minimum for two boars, 12 sq ft recommended)

If they think 4 weeks, then I would go to a different rescue. It is most definitely 6 full weeks after neutering to be fully infertile. The fertility rate does drop the further you get away from neutering but Wiebke adopted a sow who fell pregnant to a 5 week post neuter boar (I’m sure I'm quoting that correctly!)

 

[Swissgreys]

They didn’t really specify whether their requirements were for boar/boar or boar/sow, they had a lot of information on their website which wasn’t super clear to read so I told them what our current setup is, and they said that it was equivalent to 8sqft and their requirement is 16. If we go with the neutering option i will look around for other places to adopt a sow as this place doesn’t seem to have sows for adoption very regularly, it’s just the most convenient one for us to get to.
Also going back to the 6 week wait after being neutered, this rescue says 4 weeks on their website and I’ve just read 3 weeks elsewhere?! I hate the internet sometimes it’s so confusing

I agree about picking a different rescue, as if they are giving false information (which could prove dangerous at best and disastrous at worst) they are clearly not as experienced as you would like.
It is always worth travelling a little further to a rescue from the approved list on the Forum.
That way you can be sure you are getting a properly checked and healthy pig and also good advice.

 

[Bettyb26]

Yes a 120x60 is 8 square feet which is RSPCA minimum.
16 sq ft is absolutely lovely for two piggies and of course the more the better but is well beyond what most would require for two.
(8 sq ft minimum for two sows or a neutered boar/sow pair, 10 sq ft recommended
10 sq ft minimum for two boars, 12 sq ft recommended)

If they think 4 weeks, then I would go to a different rescue. It is most definitely 6 full weeks after neutering to be fully infertile. The fertility rate does drop the further you get away from neutering but Wiebke adopted a sow who fell pregnant to a 5 week post neuter boar (I’m sure I'm quoting that correctly!)

Thank you