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Caecotrophs- New Information?

Flutterby

Flutterby

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Just wanted to discuss this that has been posted by 'The Guinea Pig Vet' on facebook. At first they stated without information that guinea pigs do not produce caecotrophs, but after people saying they do, they have gone into more detail on what they mean.

Is this new information that changes what we thing about guinea pigs eating their faeces or something? It's the first time i've herd it being explained like this, which goes against everything we preach.

"
Did you know!?! Guinea pigs are coprophagic (meaning: they eat their own poo
💩
). This is to assist with getting the nutrients they need.
Rabbits
🐇
produce and eat caecotrophs
💩
(soft pellets produced after the first passage through the digestive tract). Caecotrophs provide a good source of B vitamins for rabbits. Because guinea pigs don't produce caecotrophs, they need B vitamins in their diet. These vitamins come from pellets and veg.
Added
💩
Info - Whilst rabbits and guinea pigs have similar gut transits there are some differences. In rabbits, large fibre particles are separated from small fibre particles in the first part of the colon. The large particles pass on through the colon and are excreted as hard faecal pellets, the small particles are returned to the caecum to undergo fermentation, forming a paste. This paste then passes rapidly along the colon forming the cecotroph.
The passage of ingesta through the gastro-intestinal tract of guinea pigs is somewhat different. Guinea pigs return bacteria to the caecum from the colon using a mucus trap method, but this contains very few or no food particles. The faecal pellets guinea pigs eat during coprophagy have not come directly from the caecum, as in rabbits. Therefore, are not termed cecotrophs.
The Quesenberry, Orcutt, Mans and Carpenter book 'Ferrets, rabbits and rodents, clinical medicine and surgery 4th edition' states "unlike rabbits, guinea pigs are not caecotrophic." This is supported by university of Illinois notes on caecotrophy in rabbits which states "rabbits are unique in that they practice caecotrophy."
Whilst both animals eat faecal material that has passed once through the gastrointestinal tract, in order to get more value from their diet, the passage is slightly different and hence the faecal material guinea pigs eat are not by definition called caecotrophs.
😁
More will be explained about the differences between rabbits and guinea pigs in our blog next week.
👀
"

Added by admin
Original source material https://m.facebook.com/story.php?st...tstream_source=timeline&anchor_reactions=true
 
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No, I haven't been aware of that but new research is bringing up all sorts of things now that guinea pigs have become more interesting as a species in their own right and they are no longer as overlooked as mere 'children's pets'.
 
Flutterby said:
Sorry I didnt cite the source. Its simply a topic of discussion though not a dig at anyone, it's to try and discuss possible new information.
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It is certainly interesting. We constantly learn new things.

We are not taking it as a dig at us. You would be surprised as to how often I update some of the running guides; they are by no means the same as what they started out as new insights have become available - and that will continue.
 
Wiebke said:
It is certainly interesting. We constantly learn new things.

We are not taking it as a dig at us. You would be surprised as to how often I update some of the running guides; they are by no means the same as what they started out as new insights have become available - and that will continue.
Click to expand...

Good just didn't want it to look like I was having a dig at the guinea pig vet or anything or trying to make it out that they were giving false information out. Just interesting to see new possible facts on things.
 
Flutterby said:
Sorry I didnt cite the source. Its simply a topic of discussion though not a dig at anyone, it's to try and discuss possible new information
Click to expand...

Definitely not taken as a dig :) I had to pop link in to original source Ruth as a matter of copyright.

There is nothing wrong with debating what someone has said, that is what the exchange of information and forums are all about

Very interesting topic and pleased you have brought it to the forum
 
Thank you @Flutterby
for making a very valid point of discussion. As a rescue of which Ruth is a pivotal team member we have to deal with hundreds of query’s and I agree new information is coming available all the time. My team are very experienced and it’s right to question something which just appeared via Facebook and not seen on any other format or via vets. I will enjoy discussing this with our practice exotic vets.
As far as the eating of poop is concerning I’ve asked my Indiana and he’s confirmed which ever route his poop takes is irrelevant he will never stop dipping and snacking 🤭 😳
 
You wouldn't believe how far we have come on over the last decade unless you read some of the old stuff and got the cold shivers over some of the practices and recommendations. Never mind going back 50 years in what is the Cavy Stone Age!

We are open-minded on here (have always been) and will take on board what proves to be right and what works out. Not everything does and our advice and information will reflect that. There is usually a period where things are discussed, questioned and tested before a consensus forms and practical feedback comes back.

Welfare and research are both a process and not a static state.

PS: The old tenet of a balanced diet with a bit of everything in it still works.
 
Thanks for this @Flutterby Very interesting reading! Love when we get some more up to date research, in our very under researched piggies. Always great for discussion.

I’ll have a look at work to see if I can get hold of the full publication. I’m certain the veterinary department will have access!
 
I will defintely look for the original research papers when I have time but... from what I read so far this caecotroph thing is a technical anatomical distinction with not much real life relevance. Like the question of which of a cow's 4 stomachs is actually a stomach. Piggies definitely eat their poops and digest most things twice, and the first pass poops have essential bacteria. Its more an anatomical distinction- the first poops they eat dont necessarily come from the caecum which is the gut bit we have as an appendix bit is a big bacteria filled fermenting bag region of the gut in non-ruminant herbivores like piggies, bunnies and horses. So interpreted literally piggy poops may not be caecotrophs as not from the caecum gut region. I doubt piggies care much which section of their intestine the tasty nutritious poops come from, they still eat them and need to eat them!
Very iteresting of course, but unless this knowledge is applied to research into which gut regions we might better target in future with new gut motility meds for poorly piggies with bloat and stasis, or better probiotics, I doubt it has much real world relevance right now, to piggies themselves :)
The vit B angle is interesting will read more about that!
 
PigglePuggle said:
I will defintely look for the original research papers when I have time but... from what I read so far this caecotroph thing is a technical anatomical distinction with not much real life relevance. Like the question of which of a cow's 4 stomachs is actually a stomach. Piggies definitely eat their poops and digest most things twice, and the first pass poops have essential bacteria. Its more an anatomical distinction- the first poops they eat dont necessarily come from the caecum which is the gut bit we have as an appendix bit is a big bacteria filled fermenting bag region of the gut in non-ruminant herbivores like piggies, bunnies and horses. So interpreted literally piggy poops may not be caecotrophs as not from the caecum gut region. I doubt piggies care much which section of their intestine the tasty nutritious poops come from, they still eat them and need to eat them!
Very iteresting of course, but unless this knowledge is applied to research into which gut regions we might better target in future with new gut motility meds for poorly piggies with bloat and stasis, or better probiotics, I doubt it has much real world relevance right now, to piggies themselves :)
The vit B angle is interesting will read more about that!
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Thank you. The vitamin B bit is certainly interesting; it's being pushed in quite some corners and definitely recommended for piggies with impaction, so learning more about that would be helpful for integrating into the impaction and diet guides.
 
I have 3 piggies now and 4 rainbow 🌈
I’m learning all the time and I will always listen and advise is very important
This forum although not exclusive is very honest and that for me Is right.
I feel that the best for the piggies is what’s important.
Sqeeeeeeek
 
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Hi all. I remember going back there was a thread on research into guinea pig guts. Turns out their digestive system isn't like rabbits and they don't process food the same way like we initially thought.

Someone shared a link to the guinea pig vets Facebook page. They (GP vet) have shared more information on the subject which I though may be interesting for others. The down side is I can't find that thread. I can't remember who posted it initially.

Here's the link to the info: How The Digestive Physiology Differs between Rabbits and Guinea Pigs

I'm tagging people who I think comme ted on the post who may remember it. Feel free to merge this with the thread.

@Wiebke @VickiA @FurryFriends @Piggies&buns
 
Engel said:
Hi all. I remember going back there was a thread on research into guinea pig guts. Turns out their digestive system isn't like rabbits and they don't process food the same way like we initially thought.

Someone shared a link to the guinea pig vets Facebook page. They (GP vet) have shared more information on the subject which I though may be interesting for others. The down side is I can't find that thread. I can't remember who posted it initially.

Here's the link to the info: How The Digestive Physiology Differs between Rabbits and Guinea Pigs

I'm tagging people who I think comme ted on the post who may remember it. Feel free to merge this with the thread.

@Wiebke @VickiA @FurryFriends @Piggies&buns
Click to expand...

Thank you.

You can always do a search via the Search Forums button by the top bar. It is a helpful tool in finding older threads. ;)

I will move and merge the two threads for you (the original thread about new caecotroph/coprophagy research in guinea pigs is in the H&I section).
 
Wiebke said:
Thank you.

You can always do a search via the Search Forums button by the top bar. It is a helpful tool in finding older threads. ;)

I will move and merge the two threads for you (the original thread about new caecotroph/coprophagy research in guinea pigs is in the H&I section).
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Ah ok. I did try the search bar but couldn't remember the member who posted nor the name of the thread. I'm going to bookmark it now though as I'm interested in this. Thanks
 
Engel said:
Ah ok. I did try the search bar but couldn't remember the member who posted nor the name of the thread. I'm going to bookmark it now though as I'm interested in this. Thanks
Click to expand...

I found it by typing in 'coprophagy' into the search bar but no further information. 'Caecotrophs' would have also got there. You do not need all information. The various fields are there to narrow down the search or help people who want to search for a thread they remember the poster but not the exact title, for instant but you do not necessarily fill them all in. All the fields are there to give everybody a chance but the more you know, the easier you can narrow down your search. ;)
 
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