Bullying

[Isobel2407]

Hi I have 2 boars who are 4 months old. The dominance behaviour seems to be slowly getting worse over the past 4 weeks. One of them continually chases, humps the other one which I know is normal for their age. Although over the last few days the other one is now just hiding in the tunnel on the ramp and is withdrawn. Every time I handle them or out them in or out them in their run, or clean out the cage the dominant behaviour gets worse afterwards by the bully. No blood has been drawn but the dominant one definitely tries to nip the other one and climbs over him if is in his way. I have 2 of everything.
When I try and catch the one being chased, he now doesn't want to be caught and quite skittish which is not like him, he never used to run away.
I just wonder if I need to do a trial separation and see if the bullied guinea perks up?

Any advice would be very much appreciated

 

[Siikibam]

How has the underpig’s weight been? Has he been allowed to eat (from what you can see)? A trial separation can do the trick but what you have to be careful about is that you’re not interrupting what is ‘normal’. You also can’t use it repeatedly as otherwise the bond could be at risk.

When cleaning them out, leave some dirty bedding in there and only clean part of the cage. When you are dealing with them, you must also respect and uphold their hierarchy. So anything needs doing should be done to/with the dominant pig first.

Have a read of the guide below and see where he’s sitting in terms of dominance. It can look a lot worse to us than it actually is. However, the fact he’s hiding and withdrawn is not entirely good. You can try a separation for a few days and see. When you are deciding whether to reunite them (on neutral territory), you have to see how the underpig behaves, rather than top pig. The latter will want to be back with his friend.

Hoping things calm down soon. It can be quite traumatic for us to watch!

Dominance Behaviours In Guinea Pigs

Boars: Teenage, Bullying, Fighting, Fall-outs And What Next?

Moody Guinea Pigs: Depression, Bullying, Aggression, Stress, Fear and Antisocial Behaviour

 

[Piggies&buns]

If it is relentless and one is now becoming withdrawn, I would do the trial separation and then gauge the underpig’s reaction. If he perks up being away then that is often a sign that the bond is sadly not working.

 

[Isobel2407]

Hi thank you both for your replies. The underpig weight is slightly less than the bully, and it used to be vice versa. I separated them for 24 hours and put them back together in the run today there was the normal dominance for the first hour, then they did settle a bit in their run (I think maybe due to the heat?) I took the 2 hides out later on (they have access 2 way) as the bully kept on pushing the other one out. I split them up again later on, as the bully was just being relentless, and the underdog was shaking and squeaking really loudly and the bully was climbing all over him. They do have times when they seem ok, but the bully is getting more relentless. When he is distracted it is ok, but then remembers and then doesn't stop which has got worse over past few weeks.
My gut feeling is that the underdog is not thriving under the current system and he is withdrawn and doesn't even try and defend himself now. I have separated them again this evening.
I just wondered if you had any advice going forward?

Many thanks

 

[Isobel2407]

I also meant to add when I put them together, the underdog wasn't interested in the bully. The bully has been squeaking for him a lot, and the underdog has not squeakee once when apart (am not sure if this is relevant)

 

[Piggies&buns]

It does sound like things may be tense between them.
If the submissive piggy is losing weight, then I would be concerned.

It’s important not to keep introducing and separating as this is an added stress. . A separation and one time reintroduction will give you the answer about their relationship. The fact you’ve done this and had to separate them again, then I would say it is probable that their bond is not a happy one.

I also meant to add when I put them together, the underdog wasn't interested in the bully. The bully has been squeaking for him a lot, and the underdog has not squeakee once when apart (am not sure if this is relevant)

Yes the submissive piggy’s behaviour when separated is relevant.
The bully will be upset by a separation in every case, so this is why it is not his reaction that you go by.
If your submissive piggy is happier away then that is your answer that their bond is not functioning and they will actually be happier to live separately by side by side.

I have four boys - a bonded pair who are now 5 years old and I also have two 9 month old boys. The youngsters were a bonded pair but their bond broke down with a big fight (slightly different situation to yours in that Their bond break down was not bullying but due to incompatibility as they are both too dominant To be together). They now live side by side and are much happier to not have to share territory.

 

[Isobel2407]

Thank you that is really helpful. Do you have any advice as they live in an outside hutch on so hard to get them to live side by side, or does that mean having to move them inside and get a c&c cage. It is definitely easier having them outside (although I did think we would have to bring them in over winter).
Many thanks again for your advice

 

[Piggies&buns]

Thank you that is really helpful. Do you have any advice as they live in an outside hutch on so hard to get them to live side by side, or does that mean having to move them inside and get a c&c cage. It is definitely easier having them outside (although I did think we would have to bring them in over winter).
Many thanks again for your advice

Unfortunately hutches don’t lend themselves to side by side living at all easily.
The best you could do is to have two separate hutches measuring a minimum of 4 foot each and position them in an L shape but thats just not the same for interaction as living properly side by side.
There is then also the issue of summer heat and hutches anyway (I actually find keeping warm in winter much easier than keeping them cool in summer).

My boys live in hutches but they are in my shed so it’s slightly easier in that I have a hutch which has two wire doors. One piggy lives in the hutch and the other in a commercial cage with it pushed up against one of the wire doors so they have constant interaction.
(currently they’ve been moved into c&c cages in my shed for summer with the hutches sitting empty outside now due to the heat. Although they are only in the shed at night and are coming indoors during the day due to it being too hot for them to be outside at all at the moment)

 

[Isobel2407]

Thank you for your reply. I just wondered what your thoughts were if they were in a separate top and bottom hutch at night, and then out during the day in separate runs 8ft and 4ft each, but right next to each other. I currently have one run but could get another. Would this be enough interaction? In winter I obviously would have to get a c&c cage and bring them in (and put them somewhere!) But we are looking to move house by Christmas so may not be an issue then. I obviously want them both to thrive and just wondered if this would be suitable or not enough side by side contact?
Many thanks

 

[Piggies&buns]

Thank you for your reply. I just wondered what your thoughts were if they were in a separate top and bottom hutch at night, and then out during the day in separate runs 8ft and 4ft each, but right next to each other. I currently have one run but could get another. Would this be enough interaction? In winter I obviously would have to get a c&c cage and bring them in (and put them somewhere!) But we are looking to move house by Christmas so may not be an issue then. I obviously want them both to thrive and just wondered if this would be suitable or not enough side by side contact?
Many thanks

I'm afraid not. They need constant 24/7 side by side interaction.

 

[Isobel2407]

Thank you, for all your help. I am now discussing with my husband about having the c&c cages indoors and losing half is our sitting room ! I am struggling to see how the L shape hutch would work outside due to the wooden end of the hutch (if that makes sense)

My only other question is that the underdog is delighted to be by himself,he seems a lot happier already. Whereas the bully is squeaking a lot. I know it's hard to know but are they generally quite happy living side by side or would ultimately he prefer to share with another guinea pig?

 

[Piggies&buns]

Thank you, for all your help. I am now discussing with my husband about having the c&c cages indoors and losing half is our sitting room ! I am struggling to see how the L shape hutch would work outside due to the wooden end of the hutch (if that makes sense)

My only other question is that the underdog is delighted to be by himself,he seems a lot happier already. Whereas the bully is squeaking a lot. I know it's hard to know but are they generally quite happy living side by side or would ultimately he prefer to share with another guinea pig?

As he has perked up, then that is a definite sign their bond has failed sadly.
The bully pig is squeaking because he now can’t bully and fight and he will be patrolling his territory. It doesn’t necessarily mean it’s because he needs to live with another piggy. He will eventually settle and provided they have constant through the bar interaction with each other then neither need to have a new live in friend. Living side by side is perfectly fine.
Both my boys were upset by their separation but after a few days they were both fine and much happier to be apart.

If you are moving them inside then they need a minimum of a 3x2 c&c cage each side by side either in a long 6x2 divided or as two cages L shape.

If you wish to try to find a new friend then that is your decision to make.
I would however, recommend you neuter them both, have the essential six week post op and find a sow for each of them. Ideally finding a sow with the help of dating at a rescue centre to ensure compatibility and acceptance.
At their age with hormones now in play and the fact he has bullied a boar already, neutering and bonding with a sow would have a higher chance of success than bonding each with another boar. Bonding teen boars is not impossible but it is harder and we would only recommend you attempt to do so with the help of a rescue centre otherwise you risk ending up with failed bonds and more single piggies.
The other benefit is that if both have a new friend, then cages can be stacked. A 4x2 stacked cage with a boar/sow pair at the top and the other boar/sow pair at the bottom would save floor space.
You could also still use the outside hutch (provided the hutch is a 5 or 6ft hutch) - one pair up, one pair down.

If you want to get only one of them a new friend due to struggling being alone, that is ok but they would still need to be side by side as there is still a single piggy, and the cage for the pair would need to be bigger (again, still recommending bonding with a sow but it would mean you would need a 4x2 for the pair and a side by side 3x2 for the single piggy. If only one is neutered and bonded with a sow then, the boar who remains single would need to have a lid on his cage as he could well try to escape and get in with the sow (thus causing a pregnancy and potentially a fight with the other boar for territory invasion).

If you decided to take the chance on boar friends for them each, then the cage size needed is a 5x2 c&c each and any outdoor hutch needs to be 6ft for two boars.

 

[Isobel2407]

As he has perked up, then that is a definite sign their bond has failed sadly.
The bully pig is squeaking because he now can’t bully and fight and he will be patrolling his territory. It doesn’t necessarily mean it’s because he needs to live with another piggy. He will eventually settle and provided they have constant through the bar interaction with each other then neither need to have a new live in friend. Living side by side is perfectly fine.
Both my boys were upset by their separation but after a few days they were both fine and much happier to be apart.

If you are moving them inside then they need a minimum of a 3x2 c&c cage each side by side either in a long 6x2 divided or as two cages L shape.

If you wish to try to find a new friend then that is your decision to make.
I would however, recommend you neuter them both, have the essential six week post op and find a sow for each of them. Ideally finding a sow with the help of dating at a rescue centre to ensure compatibility and acceptance.
At their age with hormones now in play and the fact he has bullied a boar already, neutering and bonding with a sow would have a higher chance of success than bonding each with another boar. Bonding teen boars is not impossible but it is harder and we would only recommend you attempt to do so with the help of a rescue centre otherwise you risk ending up with failed bonds and more single piggies.
The other benefit is that if both have a new friend, then cages can be stacked. A 4x2 stacked cage with a boar/sow pair at the top and the other boar/sow pair at the bottom would save floor space.
You could also still use the outside hutch (provided the hutch is a 5 or 6ft hutch) - one pair up, one pair down.

If you want to get only one of them a new friend due to struggling being alone, that is ok but they would still need to be side by side as there is still a single piggy, and the cage for the pair would need to be bigger (again, still recommending bonding with a sow but it would mean you would need a 4x2 for the pair and a side by side 3x2 for the single piggy. If only one is neutered and bonded with a sow then, the boar who remains single would need to have a lid on his cage as he could well try to escape and get in with the sow (thus causing a pregnancy and potentially a fight with the other boar for territory invasion).

If you decided to take the chance on boar friends for them each, then the cage size needed is a 5x2 c&c each and any outdoor hutch needs to be 6ft for two boars.

Thank you for reply. That is very helpful. I definitely don't think I wasn't to be adding to the 2 I have, but very helpful and good to know that they can live happily side by side. I think will bring them indoors and either get a 8ft x 2 or 6ft X 2 with divider. I'm glad they can live happily side by side.
Many thanks again