Bonded Boar Pair Love the New Guy. But are now Fighting Each Other

[melodyinairdrie]

I have been doing a LOT of reading on here the last 48 hours. I have gained much information. But a few questions remain for my situation that I didn't see answers for.

Background:

• I have a bonded pair of boars, about 10 months old. Kermit has been dominant from day one. Peanut is VERY timid.
• We decided to get a third boar and understood that IF this worked, we would be maxed out. Enter Gus, 7 weeks old. I figured this was our best shot, because he would be too young to even try and challenge Kermit (for now anyway).
• Introductions went awesome. Both Kermit and Peanut just loved the new guy Gus. After the first 40 minutes of franticness, they hung out most of the afternoon in the scrubbed down play zone.
• Then I moved everyone to the freshly scrubbed cage. Again, everyone loved the new guy. Kermit was picking at Peanut a bit, but it didn't seem like more than the usually picking at him he does about once a month. It seemed like Kermit wanted Gus all to himself, and wanted Peanut to stay away.
• The next day I was home most of the day and everyone lived happily in the cage (which is 2'x8' and a ramp would have been installed to go down to an additional 4x4 play zone while I'm at work.

Now:

• I went to work Monday and came home to an angry Kermit and Peanut. Tufts of Peanuts hair was in the cage and after I'd been home for about 20 minutes they started really scraping. I was able to break it up, but upon inspection I saw that Peanut had a small cut.
• The first thing I did was remove the new guy Gus from the area to his own cage. Then I sat and supervised. They were still fighting and I had to break up a Tasmanian Devil whirlwind. So everyone got split up in 3 different cages for the evening.
• I scrubbed out the play area and put down fresh fleece. After everyone was separated for a few hours, I decided to try the originals, Peanut and Kermit again in the fresh play area. Nope. The scrapping started again. So everyone slept alone that stayed that way while I was at work the next day.
• Yesterday afternoon I kept Gus on his own in a separate cage (he hadn't interacted with anyone since Monday afternoon when separated) and tried Peanut and Kermit again in their fresh but original cage. They were a bit better than the crazy day before, but not great. And everyone time I took Kermit out of the cage from Peanut, Peanut would be so upset that he was gone (even though he had just been fought by Kermit)
• So they spent the night and all of today in the big play area, with a C&C divider down the middle. They BOTH desperately wanted to get at each other but settled for snuggling through the fence eventually.
• Got home from work today. Tried removing the divider - hard nope. Still fighting. (New guy Gus has been separated this whole time and hasn't come back for interaction).
• Decided to put Peanut and new guy Gus in together in a fresh cage for a few hours. Works out great. Peanut just loves Gus and vice versa.
• Later I decided to put new guy Gus in with Kermit. Worked out great. They love each other.

Questions:

• From what I've read, it's probably over for Kermit and Peanut. Just like that. Even if we get rid of Gus? And if so, why do they both, especially Peanut, seem so stressed out when they are separated?
• Since everyone loves Gus (for now), would it make sense to have Peanut and Kermit living in separate, side by side cages for the long term, and just rotate every few days who Gus hangs out with? I have a few days left to decide this in order for me to give Gus back for rehoming, instead of trying to do it myself.
• If my son wants to (like he's begging to), can he have Gus alone in his room separately, in his own cage and spend lots of time with him, and just bring Gus down for play time every few days. This seems like the not-so-great option. And if Gus is in the house still, the chances that Kermit and Peanut will go back to being peaceful seem very low.

Notes:

• I know another option is to get another young boar and keep one adult and one young one together in separate cages. I really don't think I can manage with four right now for various reasons.
• I understand the space requirements for maximum happiness.

Thanks so much everyone.

 

[Piggies&buns]

Sorry to hear about this.

Unfortunately, boar trios and quartets are very unstable and almost never work. Occasionally somebody will get lucky but it’s usually because the piggies have chosen to be together - adding a third or even fourth on spec to an already bonded pair doesn’t usually work out well. They find it very hard to form a functioning hierarchy in that situation. Space is also an issue - they need a lot more room than normal cage sizing requirements. It’s possible your 2x8 might not have been enough (in a trio attempt we’d recommend one square metre of territory per piggy so something more along the lines of a 9 or 10 by 3 cage to ensure there really is enough room). The 4x4 space wouldn’t have counted in any event (piggies need their cage to meet size needs on a single level and any area connected by ramp is just a bonus space)
Boar needs to be kept in bonded pairs.

The more common outcome of an attempted boar trio is that the original pair remain together with the newcomer being ousted.
Sometimes we do see the addition of a third piggy ruining the bond between the original two.
It might have been that Kermit and peanut had underlying issues in their bond and Gus just gave them the reason for it to show at this point.
If Kermit and Peanut’s bond did have underlying issues you might have seen an issue occur anyway regardless of whether Gus was added. Occasionally boars get to their end of their teens and the relationship fail at that point rather than the more common failure point of at the beginning of the teens.

Even if Gus is not in the house going forward it won’t make any difference to Peanut and Kermit, I’m afraid. Peanut and Kermit’s relationship is sadly over and they won’t be able to share a cage again.

What you perceived as Kermit and peanut being stressed out when one is removed, and being at the divider and snuggling at the divider with each other wanting to be together, is not usually a sign they actually want to be together or are able to share a territory. This behaviour is often misread by owners as them wanting to be together.
It’s actually a power lie in - they are marking their territory from each other so the other doesn’t cross, and are wanting to fight and defend their spaces again.

You need to bond Gus with one of the other two - whichever he gets on best with. From what you’ve said, I would try to bond Peanut and Gus together, leave Kermit on his own. You don’t know if Gus is going to end up being dominant when he hits his teens. If he does and he is with Kermit, it’s possible things might escalate between them.

Gus needs to be bonded with Peanut and left as a pair together.
Kermit needs to live in a separate cage. Kermit’s cage must be beside Gus and Peanut’s cage so Kermit can still have communication with them at all times but only ever through the bars. This will prevent Kermit from getting lonely.

(Gus must not be by himself. He is too young to be alone and needs to be bonded straight away. Piggies under 4 months of age require the constant companionship and guidance from another piggy.)

You cannot and must not rotate Gus in and out of the two cages. He needs to remain permanently bonded to Peanut and remain in the one cage with him at all times.
If you attempt to rotate Gus in and out between two cages every few days, then they will be trying to form a hierarchy and bond that will be stopped every time you move him back to the other cage. They’d be in a constant state of confusion and trying to form bonds but never actually managing to see any of it through. Full bonding takes around two weeks so he would never actually manage to properly bond with either of them. Piggy bonds can’t work this way.
It also runs the risk that it will be seen as a territory invasion - you can’t put a piggy directly into the space of another piggy (this is why bonding is always done on neutral territory). It will cause a fight and potentially mean Gus is not accepted by either piggy (you’d then be left with three piggies who don’t like each other).

Gus cant be in your sons room by himself - he would become lonely very quickly. Coming down every few days is never going to be enough. Human interaction is also not enough as there is no mutual communication - a lot of piggy communication is through scent and body language so is obviously not something a human can provide.
Gus being in your son’s room and away from Kermit and peanut wont make Kermit and peanut go back together either.
(The only way Gus can be in your son‘s room is if all three piggies are in there in their respective cages).

A boar pair need a 2x5 cage. The single needs a 2x3 minimum but ideally a 2x4 cage on his own.

If you choose to give Gus back to be rehomed, then Kermit and Peanut will still need to be kept apart in separate but side by side cages. As above, they would each need a 2x4 cage.

Boars: Teenage, Bullying, Fighting, Fall-outs And What Next?
Adding More Guinea Pigs Or Merging Pairs – What Works And What Not?
A Comprehensive Guide to Guinea Pig Boars

 

[ScrufflesRules]

I agree with Piggies&buns, you've been given great advice above, even if it's probably not what you want to hear.
Sorry you're in this situation- it really sucks that there are so many misconceptions about guinea pigs, but I'm glad you've managed to find this community so quickly.

 

[ScrufflesRules]

Just to add, definitely don't keep the piggy cage in your son's room (no matter how hard he begs) for the sake of your son's quality of sleep. Guinea pigs are very noisy at night time and will regularly disrupt even the heaviest of sleepers.

I'd recommend discussing your next steps on the forum first before making any drastic decisions like rehoming one of the pigs, as you will get excellent advice with ideas you may never have thought of.

I'll add the link to every guide on the forum in case you haven't discovered it yet, it's been a goldmine for me over the years: Guinea Pig Care & Information Guides

Here's the guide discussing single guinea pigs, which will give you more insight into why Gus can't live alone and why it may be best for Kermit to live in a separate cage alongside Gus and Peanut: Single Guinea Pigs - Challenges and Responsibilities

Best of luck with everything

 

[Sweet Potato]

What a difficult situation. Its awful that people spread their ideas of boars happily living in groups. Sadly that isn't how this works and its only our human desire to want a house full of piggies that makes us think one more couldn't hurt. Your older boys are just getting through the last of their teenage months which means their bond wasn't fully worked out and was far from unshakeable. Adding a third piggie is pretty high up on the list of ways to make boars fall out especially when your older boys are still quite young.

I agree with the above comments that Peanut and Gus are your best bet at a long term successful pair. You really have 2 choices for kermit A) he lives alongside them where he can communicate through the bars. B) you get a 4th pig to live with him, I would recommend taking him to a rescue to go boar dating to choose a friend to avoid further fall outs.

 

[melodyinairdrie]

Sorry to hear about this.

Unfortunately, boar trios and quartets are very unstable and almost never work. Occasionally somebody will get lucky but it’s usually because the piggies have chosen to be together - adding a third or even fourth on spec to an already bonded pair doesn’t usually work out well. They find it very hard to form a functioning hierarchy in that situation. Space is also an issue - they need a lot more room than normal cage sizing requirements. It’s possible your 2x8 might not have been enough (in a trio attempt we’d recommend one square metre of territory per piggy so something more along the lines of a 9 or 10 by 3 cage to ensure there really is enough room). The 4x4 space wouldn’t have counted in any event (piggies need their cage to meet size needs on a single level and any area connected by ramp is just a bonus space)
Boar needs to be kept in bonded pairs.

The more common outcome of an attempted boar trio is that the original pair remain together with the newcomer being ousted.
Sometimes we do see the addition of a third piggy ruining the bond between the original two.
It might have been that Kermit and peanut had underlying issues in their bond and Gus just gave them the reason for it to show at this point.
If Kermit and Peanut’s bond did have underlying issues you might have seen an issue occur anyway regardless of whether Gus was added. Occasionally boars get to their end of their teens and the relationship fail at that point rather than the more common failure point of at the beginning of the teens.

Even if Gus is not in the house going forward it won’t make any difference to Peanut and Kermit, I’m afraid. Peanut and Kermit’s relationship is sadly over and they won’t be able to share a cage again.

What you perceived as Kermit and peanut being stressed out when one is removed, and being at the divider and snuggling at the divider with each other wanting to be together, is not usually a sign they actually want to be together or are able to share a territory. This behaviour is often misread by owners as them wanting to be together.
It’s actually a power lie in - they are marking their territory from each other so the other doesn’t cross, and are wanting to fight and defend their spaces again.

You need to bond Gus with one of the other two - whichever he gets on best with. From what you’ve said, I would try to bond Peanut and Gus together, leave Kermit on his own. You don’t know if Gus is going to end up being dominant when he hits his teens. If he does and he is with Kermit, it’s possible things might escalate between them.

Gus needs to be bonded with Peanut and left as a pair together.
Kermit needs to live in a separate cage. Kermit’s cage must be beside Gus and Peanut’s cage so Kermit can still have communication with them at all times but only ever through the bars. This will prevent Kermit from getting lonely.

(Gus must not be by himself. He is too young to be alone and needs to be bonded straight away. Piggies under 4 months of age require the constant companionship and guidance from another piggy.)

You cannot and must not rotate Gus in and out of the two cages. He needs to remain permanently bonded to Peanut and remain in the one cage with him at all times.
If you attempt to rotate Gus in and out between two cages every few days, then they will be trying to form a hierarchy and bond that will be stopped every time you move him back to the other cage. They’d be in a constant state of confusion and trying to form bonds but never actually managing to see any of it through. Full bonding takes around two weeks so he would never actually manage to properly bond with either of them. Piggy bonds can’t work this way.
It also runs the risk that it will be seen as a territory invasion - you can’t put a piggy directly into the space of another piggy (this is why bonding is always done on neutral territory). It will cause a fight and potentially mean Gus is not accepted by either piggy (you’d then be left with three piggies who don’t like each other).

Gus cant be in your sons room by himself - he would become lonely very quickly. Coming down every few days is never going to be enough. Human interaction is also not enough as there is no mutual communication - a lot of piggy communication is through scent and body language so is obviously not something a human can provide.
Gus being in your son’s room and away from Kermit and peanut wont make Kermit and peanut go back together either.
(The only way Gus can be in your son‘s room is if all three piggies are in there in their respective cages).

A boar pair need a 2x5 cage. The single needs a 2x3 minimum but ideally a 2x4 cage on his own.

If you choose to give Gus back to be rehomed, then Kermit and Peanut will still need to be kept apart in separate but side by side cages. As above, they would each need a 2x4 cage.

Boars: Teenage, Bullying, Fighting, Fall-outs And What Next?
Adding More Guinea Pigs Or Merging Pairs – What Works And What Not?
A Comprehensive Guide to Guinea Pig Boars

Thank you so much for your comprehensive answer. This is as I suspected, but of course not as I hoped. The two and one, separate but side-by-side is how I have everyone now. Peanut is so very happy, I suspect happier than he was with Kermit actually.

A follow-up question: Can Gus and Kermit still enjoy floor time or play time in the neutral pen each day? I understand the reasoning for not having Gus in Kermit's living space at all. But play time in the evenings in the neutral area would still be good for Kermit?

 

[melodyinairdrie]

I agree with Piggies&buns, you've been given great advice above, even if it's probably not what you want to hear.
Sorry you're in this situation- it really sucks that there are so many misconceptions about guinea pigs, but I'm glad you've managed to find this community so quickly.

I had guinea pigs alot when I was a bit younger, until I got married and my husband was allergic. But it was always female pairs and when I was younger I didn't really care to learn much about these things lol. Now I love it. So it is really unfortunate when you receive bad advice from someone you THINK should know what they are talking about.

 

[melodyinairdrie]

Just to add, definitely don't keep the piggy cage in your son's room (no matter how hard he begs) for the sake of your son's quality of sleep. Guinea pigs are very noisy at night time and will regularly disrupt even the heaviest of sleepers.

I'd recommend discussing your next steps on the forum first before making any drastic decisions like rehoming one of the pigs, as you will get excellent advice with ideas you may never have thought of.

I'll add the link to every guide on the forum in case you haven't discovered it yet, it's been a goldmine for me over the years: Guinea Pig Care & Information Guides

Here's the guide discussing single guinea pigs, which will give you more insight into why Gus can't live alone and why it may be best for Kermit to live in a separate cage alongside Gus and Peanut: Single Guinea Pigs - Challenges and Responsibilities

Best of luck with everything

Thank you everyone! I've made some responses in this thread.

 

[melodyinairdrie]

What a difficult situation. Its awful that people spread their ideas of boars happily living in groups. Sadly that isn't how this works and its only our human desire to want a house full of piggies that makes us think one more couldn't hurt. Your older boys are just getting through the last of their teenage months which means their bond wasn't fully worked out and was far from unshakeable. Adding a third piggie is pretty high up on the list of ways to make boars fall out especially when your older boys are still quite young.

I agree with the above comments that Peanut and Gus are your best bet at a long term successful pair. You really have 2 choices for kermit A) he lives alongside them where he can communicate through the bars. B) you get a 4th pig to live with him, I would recommend taking him to a rescue to go boar dating to choose a friend to avoid further fall outs.

Thank you everyone! I've made some responses in this thread.

 

[Piggies&buns]

Thank you so much for your comprehensive answer. This is as I suspected, but of course not as I hoped. The two and one, separate but side-by-side is how I have everyone now. Peanut is so very happy, I suspect happier than he was with Kermit actually.

A follow-up question: Can Gus and Kermit still enjoy floor time or play time in the neutral pen each day? I understand the reasoning for not having Gus in Kermit's living space at all. But play time in the evenings in the neutral area would still be good for Kermit?

I can understand your disappointment.
I'm sorry you received bad advice from someone.

Female piggies are different, they are wired to live in large herds - you can keep as many females together as space allows. It’s just that boars aren’t that way - it’s pairs only in a cage setting.
(The only way to keep multiple boars is to have a bachelor boar herd of around 10 boys free range in a space covering at least 10 square metres (over 107 square feet). They would likely form sub-groups within the main herd, have plenty of space to keep territories apart and choose those they do want to hang out with. Even then a person would always need to be prepared that there is a chance it won’t work and they’d need bars put in to keep them apart).

I'm afraid not. Gus and Kermit can’t have any physical contact as they are not a bonded pair. Play dates like this are not how piggies function . It’s not about it being a neutral area or not, it’s about the fact piggies who are not a bonded pair cannot be together.
If you try to put Gus and Kermit into the playpen together, the effect will be the same. Every meeting, to the piggies, will be seen a full on bonding session where they will try to form a hierarchy each and every time but never be able to finish. The same stresses will result when they had to be separated. Peanut may then reject Gus when you tried to put him back with him (and youre back to the same issue if he gets dominant with Kermit, gus would then end up single as well and you’d have three piggies in separate cages).

If you’ve only got one pen (or only space for one) then Gus and Peanut will need to have their playtime together in the pen. Kermit will then need to have his playtime by himself once Gus and Peanut have gone back to their cage.
Or the better option if possible, get a second playpen so gus and peanut can be out in one together, and then Kermit can be in one beside them. That way Kermit won’t ever be by himself.

The only way Kermit can actually be with another piggy is by being properly bonded and live with a compatible fourth (male) piggy.

I have four boys myself. I have a 5 year old bonded pair who came to me at 4 months old but their teens went by without hassle and they still love each other today!
Last year I decided I wanted more piggies so got another young bonded pair, they were 9 weeks old at the time and are about to turn a year old next week.. (Was never so they could be bonded as a quartet though as I knew that wouldn’t work).
I knew the risks in taking even a pair of piggies at such a young age, the teens would hit and you don’t know whether they would still like each other. They got to the start of their teens and had a big fight. They’ve lived separated but side by side with each other ever since (my older pair live in the top part). They are perfectly happy like this as they don’t need to share territory. They go out in a divided run so that they are always side by side at all times. My older pair go out alongside them.

 

[Merab]

Welcome to the forum.
So sorry you have found yourself in this situation.
Hope you can find a way forward that works for you.